Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on Yesterday at 06:18:24 PM

This makes me very happy.
I don't want to jinx it but if this issue is settled in an enduring fashion AND it is through the cooperation of former political adversaries then this is a great moment for Talossa.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on Yesterday at 08:37:30 AMOh and also I don't care that I can't sponsor it.  It is fine with me if you want to do so, or another MC has also offered to do so.

Miestra, to confirm, yes I would be delighted to co-sponsor the legislation now that it has the abdication decree. It also looks like there is now language to provide flexibility around the SoS chairing the convocation as the body is empowered to choose different leadership in the event the SoS is a potential selectee of the convocation.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 20, 2024, 08:02:50 PMToo complicated. Puts too much power into the SoS's hands and then has to introduce a bunch of checks and balances to take it back out again. But, on the other hand, taking the CpI out of the equation is good (though it should be done consistently). I like this procedure - phrased as an amendment to my own proposal because I wouldn't want to unpick AD's carefully-chosen language.

Quote1. The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne.

2. The King may nominate an Heir Presumptive, to be approved by the Ziu and people by the same procedure as for an ordinary amendment of this Organic Law.

3. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne.

4. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Heir Presumptive shall become King.

Upon any vacancy on the Throne with no Heir Presumptive, a Convocation of Succession shall be called by the Secretary of State, who shall send a message to all eligible electors announcing the Convocation and providing instructions on how and when to register to participate. The Convocation shall commence fourteen days from the moment the Secretary of State sends the message to the electors.

Any Talossan shall who became a citizen no less than seven years before the date when the Secretary of State sends the message shall be eligible to be an elector in the Convocation, but only those who register with the Secretary of State before the Convocation commences shall be electors.

The Secretary of State shall establish or choose a forum for the Convocation to begin its business. The first business of the Convocation shall be to elect a Chair, by either open support of an absolute majority of Convocation members, or open support of a plurality of Convocation members at the end of 7 days.

An Heir Presumptive to the Throne of Talossa shall be chosen by the expressed support of 2/3 of the Convocation in a secret ballot, and submitted to the Ziu and people for ratification by the same procedure as for an ordinary amendment of this Organic Law

All discussions of the Convocation shall be open, and the votes of every elector shall have equal weight. The rules shall have a provision for vacating the Chair and electing a new one. All other rules of the Convocation not mentioned above shall be decided by the Convocation itself.

5. During any time that the throne is vacant and there is no Heir Presumptive, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency in accordance with law.

I like this approach from Miestra. Just reduce the involvement of the SoS to the logistics of assembling the convocation. And then let the convocation elect its own chair.

But I do not think this is enough of an obstacle for me not to support the larger bill in the absence of opposition by others. It also looks like the planned abdication is now included in the proposal via a decree from the Ziu.

The change appears to force the SoS to resign upon nomination as king which I do not support. I support recusal (and note to myself this is another option to address conflicts caused by an SoS taking on partisan political positions...)

I also can't support the Baron's succession proposal without some connection with King John designating a successor and giving a timeline for abdication.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 15, 2024, 10:08:59 PM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 15, 2024, 07:36:42 PMWe should establish an expectation and a norm in the law that His Majesty nominates someone, the Ziu approves it, and the people affirm it.

I have to reiterate the expressed position of the Free Democrats that Ziu approval must be OrgLaw-amendment threshold, i.e. 2/3 of the Cosa.

I also don't want to be in the position I have been over and over again in Talossa - where I express myself loosely and AD decides that I just agreed with him and bulldozes forward on that position. This is not a "compromise". This is an alternative.

Let me be very clear. If the King, or someone working for him, puts up a OrgLaw amendment establishing a timeline for his abdication and a process for succession in time for the 6th Clark, then I will hold off on my own bills for it to be voted on, on its merits (assuming that it is a bill solely dealing with these matters, with no tinkering to the role/powers of the Monarchy). If no such OrgLaw amendment is ready in time, then we proceed to a Vacant Throne or to a Ziu nomination.

Miestra, if the Baron is not able to produce his proposal soon then I recommend moving your proposals to the CRL. I would also be more than happy to be a co-sponsor on both.

Just read it.
This was a quite good issue with fair reporting, Mic'haglh, and I am glad LTN is back.

If this is how we finally get Txec on the throne then so be it...

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 15, 2024, 02:13:57 PM

Quote from: þerxh Sant-Enogat on April 15, 2024, 01:27:46 PMI just read Baron Alexandreu's words, and I agree that letting the King propose a successor would be the most coherent scenario to ensure the historical continuity on which our Nation is build upon.

What about the options Miestra listed? You did not mention those in your answer.

To be helpful, here are Miestra's words, Therxh which she directly invited comment on:

Quote1) the original proposal, which I call "clean decapitation". I still prefer this, though I take into account the people who worry about an indefinite empty throne.

2) a revised proposal, which appoints a new King right away and leaves it up to the Ziu to create further succession laws; the default option being "CpI names a successor to be confirmed in referendum". I haven't seen any substantial discussion on that one.

(Of course the good Baron is calling for his previously expressed preference that the King be allowed to name his own successor. But, given the incumbent's record, I don't feel happy about affording him that privilege.)

So which should we run with?
- Option 1?
- Option 1 amended slightly (eg with a "sunset clause")?
- Option 2?
- Option 2 amended slightly?

Therxh, I'm really interested in your thoughts on the options as was requested. We already have options on the table which appear to have the support now of two TNC MCs.

Quote from: þerxh Sant-Enogat on April 15, 2024, 01:27:46 PMI just read Baron Alexandreu's words, and I agree that letting the King propose a successor would be the most coherent scenario to ensure the historical continuity on which our Nation is build upon.

What about the options Miestra listed? You did not mention those in your answer.

To be helpful, here are Miestra's words, Therxh which she directly invited comment on:

Quote1) the original proposal, which I call "clean decapitation". I still prefer this, though I take into account the people who worry about an indefinite empty throne.

2) a revised proposal, which appoints a new King right away and leaves it up to the Ziu to create further succession laws; the default option being "CpI names a successor to be confirmed in referendum". I haven't seen any substantial discussion on that one.

(Of course the good Baron is calling for his previously expressed preference that the King be allowed to name his own successor. But, given the incumbent's record, I don't feel happy about affording him that privilege.)

So which should we run with?
- Option 1?
- Option 1 amended slightly (eg with a "sunset clause")?
- Option 2?
- Option 2 amended slightly?

@þerxh Sant-Enogat What are your thoughts?

Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on April 15, 2024, 08:31:14 AMSo my personal preference would be Option 2, amended to give King John 30 days to appoint a successor and step down. If one is not chosen within the appointed time, then the law will go into effect.

The 30 day deadline for resignation and a successor is a vital component of this proposal.

Quote from: Ián Tamorán S.H. on April 13, 2024, 10:33:14 AM((sound of tumbleweed blowing past))

I have heard the sound of tumbleweed. And while it is indeed a nice sound I plan to decide on a winner by day's end. :-)

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 13, 2024, 09:16:35 PMI'd like to hear other TNC MCs, in particular @þerxh Sant-Enogat and @Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat, as to which option they'd prefer (a "clean vacancy" or a named successor + succession to be determined by law with a default option). Once we have 140+ votes declared for a preferred option we can proceed.

@þerxh Sant-Enogat and @Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat Your invitation is on the table. What say you as to your preferences on this matter?

With thanks to @Barclamïu da Miéletz, Fora Talossa is delighted to share his performance on piano of Chirluscha àl Glheþ or Stand Tall, Talossans:

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Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 13, 2024, 06:42:38 PMI'd like to apologise somewhat for my post above - it came out more ill-tempered and accusatory than it sounded in my head. I don't think Glüc is consciously trying to troll and derail.

But I have to reiterate that - if it really doesn't matter who's King because the job is low-powered - then I am suddenly in favour of the continued rule of John I rather than this option. Talossa has already tried the "King who no-one really wants" option, it didn't end well.

It's a good thing I wasn't drinking hot coffee when I read this. You have a remarkable ability to shock me.