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Author Topic: Calling Council of Governors  (Read 1476 times)

Offline Sir Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: Calling Council of Governors
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2020, 10:57:05 PM »
Discussion of mergers between provinces would seem to be between those provinces. If two provinces want to merge, then what business is it of the others? No one from Vuode has approached the 18th Convocation about a merger, if that's something your province wants.

It seems like the only conceivable purpose for this body would be as a vehicle for provincial pushback against an encroachment of the Ziu, but that doesn't seem likely.

Barring that, if something is a national issue, why discuss it here rather than among the people elected to handle national matters in the Ziu?

Regardless, I withdraw my motion and the Government can proceed.

The government has nothing to do with this.  Yeah, "many hats" are at play, but let's not get the legal statuses confused here.  This is not a governmental project, nor is it a national initiative for the Ziu to get involved with. This is a meeting of the provincial executives (somewhat similar to COSLA (convention of local authorities), here in Scotland, but not exactly).

The purpose of this committee, as far as I gather, is that it acts as a think tank for inter-provincial matters and its members act as liaisons between their local assemblies and the other provinces and, if required, the national institutions.  I don't know...but, this seems like the perfect place for two provinces to begin discussions on mergers.
Well, S:reu Distain, I gather that yourself and the Seneschal are both interested in discussing provincial mergers within this body.  That initiative is a component of the Government programme.  I'm not saying that you folks are legally acting as the Government here, but I don't see much point in pretending not to notice the obvious.  There's nothing wrong with this, by the way!

Glancing back at the origin of the Council, it was intended as a way for the provinces to "work together for mutual interest," "giving the provinces a united voice when addressing the government of Talossa."  This matches what seems evident from its very nature: it's intended as an institution to allow the provinces to co-ordinate and push back on the Government or Ziu when necessary.  I mean, honestly, does it even make sense otherwise?  If two provinces want to do stuff together, then it makes sense for them to talk to each other.  If people are interested in doing something spanning across the rest of the country on a national level, then they work through the national legislature.  We don't have a very federalized system, so nothing else really makes sense.

But I will cede the point since it really doesn't matter very much, and I am not interested in arguing for the sake of arguing.  Maybe this will jumpstart something, or... I don't know?  Worth a shot, I guess.

I will support the motion to move to nominations for Governor-General, which leaves the measure one vote short of passing by acclaim (four out of eight currently).  I suggest we leave a week for any contrary voices or additional support, and then move to a week-long vote on the motion.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 11:05:28 PM by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu »
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Offline Eðo Grischun

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Re: Calling Council of Governors
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2020, 11:07:05 PM »
Discussion of mergers between provinces would seem to be between those provinces. If two provinces want to merge, then what business is it of the others? No one from Vuode has approached the 18th Convocation about a merger, if that's something your province wants.

It seems like the only conceivable purpose for this body would be as a vehicle for provincial pushback against an encroachment of the Ziu, but that doesn't seem likely.

Barring that, if something is a national issue, why discuss it here rather than among the people elected to handle national matters in the Ziu?

Regardless, I withdraw my motion and the Government can proceed.

The government has nothing to do with this.  Yeah, "many hats" are at play, but let's not get the legal statuses confused here.  This is not a governmental project, nor is it a national initiative for the Ziu to get involved with. This is a meeting of the provincial executives (somewhat similar to COSLA (convention of local authorities), here in Scotland, but not exactly).

The purpose of this committee, as far as I gather, is that it acts as a think tank for inter-provincial matters and its members act as liaisons between their local assemblies and the other provinces and, if required, the national institutions.  I don't know...but, this seems like the perfect place for two provinces to begin discussions on mergers.
Well, S:reu Distain, I gather that yourself and the Seneschal are both interested in discussing provincial mergers within this body.  That initiative is a component of the Government programme.  I'm not saying that you folks are legally acting as the Government here, but I don't see much point in pretending not to notice the obvious.

Glancing back at the origin of the Council, it was intended as a way for the provinces to "work together for mutual interest," "giving the provinces a united voice when addressing the government of Talossa."  This matches what seems evident from its very nature: it's intended as an institution to allow the provinces to co-ordinate and push back on the Government or Ziu when necessary.  I mean, honestly, does it even make sense otherwise?  If two provinces want to do stuff together, then it makes sense for them to talk to each other.  If people are interested in doing something spanning across the rest of the country on a national level, then they work through the national legislature.  We don't have a very federalized system, so nothing else really makes sense.

But I will cede the point since it really doesn't matter very much, and I am not interested in arguing for the sake of arguing.  I will support the motion to move to nominations for Governor-General, which leaves the measure one vote short of passing by acclaim (four out of eight currently).  I suggest we leave a week for any contrary voices or additional support, and then move to a week-long vote on the motion.

No, we don't need a week long vote just to decide if we are going to open nominations or not.  LEX.9.3 says a Governor-General exists and shall be chosen by majority.  Nominate a name so we can just get on with things.
The Rt. Hon. Senator Éovart Grischun S.H.

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Offline Sir Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: Calling Council of Governors
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2020, 11:30:59 PM »
Discussion of mergers between provinces would seem to be between those provinces. If two provinces want to merge, then what business is it of the others? No one from Vuode has approached the 18th Convocation about a merger, if that's something your province wants.

It seems like the only conceivable purpose for this body would be as a vehicle for provincial pushback against an encroachment of the Ziu, but that doesn't seem likely.

Barring that, if something is a national issue, why discuss it here rather than among the people elected to handle national matters in the Ziu?

Regardless, I withdraw my motion and the Government can proceed.

The government has nothing to do with this.  Yeah, "many hats" are at play, but let's not get the legal statuses confused here.  This is not a governmental project, nor is it a national initiative for the Ziu to get involved with. This is a meeting of the provincial executives (somewhat similar to COSLA (convention of local authorities), here in Scotland, but not exactly).

The purpose of this committee, as far as I gather, is that it acts as a think tank for inter-provincial matters and its members act as liaisons between their local assemblies and the other provinces and, if required, the national institutions.  I don't know...but, this seems like the perfect place for two provinces to begin discussions on mergers.
Well, S:reu Distain, I gather that yourself and the Seneschal are both interested in discussing provincial mergers within this body.  That initiative is a component of the Government programme.  I'm not saying that you folks are legally acting as the Government here, but I don't see much point in pretending not to notice the obvious.

Glancing back at the origin of the Council, it was intended as a way for the provinces to "work together for mutual interest," "giving the provinces a united voice when addressing the government of Talossa."  This matches what seems evident from its very nature: it's intended as an institution to allow the provinces to co-ordinate and push back on the Government or Ziu when necessary.  I mean, honestly, does it even make sense otherwise?  If two provinces want to do stuff together, then it makes sense for them to talk to each other.  If people are interested in doing something spanning across the rest of the country on a national level, then they work through the national legislature.  We don't have a very federalized system, so nothing else really makes sense.

But I will cede the point since it really doesn't matter very much, and I am not interested in arguing for the sake of arguing.  I will support the motion to move to nominations for Governor-General, which leaves the measure one vote short of passing by acclaim (four out of eight currently).  I suggest we leave a week for any contrary voices or additional support, and then move to a week-long vote on the motion.

No, we don't need a week long vote just to decide if we are going to open nominations or not.  LEX.9.3 says a Governor-General exists and shall be chosen by majority.  Nominate a name so we can just get on with things.
Okay, clearly you have a pretty distinct vision of what you want to accomplish and how, so I'm just going to step back and let you get to it, S:reu Distain. Didn't mean to be a wrench in the works. Carry on.
Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Offline Eðo Grischun

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Re: Calling Council of Governors
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2020, 01:18:22 AM »
I just don't see the need to start inventing unnecessary hurdles that take up even more time.  *shrug*

Convince four of the other members to go full-on Robert's Rules and you got it though.


« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 01:21:24 AM by Eðo Grischun »
The Rt. Hon. Senator Éovart Grischun S.H.

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Senator of Vuode

Offline Eðo Grischun

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Re: Calling Council of Governors
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2020, 05:04:26 AM »
I nominate XPB for the role of Gov-Gen.
The Rt. Hon. Senator Éovart Grischun S.H.

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Offline Adam Grigoriu

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Re: Calling Council of Governors
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2021, 04:56:54 PM »
I have been informed that it is now my role as Interior Minister to organize this Council. The roll has been called, all necessary seats filled, and a chair nominated, so I believe a vote is required. Past that, El Lex is very unclear is to what role, if any the Interior Minster is to play in the functioning of the Council, so unless my involvement is required I shall watch from the sidelines.

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Offline Eðo Grischun

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Re: Calling Council of Governors
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2021, 07:32:49 PM »
I repeat my nomination.
The Rt. Hon. Senator Éovart Grischun S.H.

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Offline xpb

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Re: Calling Council of Governors
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2021, 09:24:59 PM »
Point of order - it would seem that one could not be both Cézembre Sénéchal and Governor-General.  As per the CAG: Chapter VI- Distribution of Power

Article 18. So that no conflict of interest may occur, and no hostile attempt to take over the province may succeed, no citizen may simultaneously hold the post of Sénéchal or Lord Warden alongside the post of Governor-General without a resolution of l'Etats expressly permitting this combination. The posts of Sénéchal and Lord Warden may be held simultaneously.

One reason for this is listed in Chapter IV- The Governor-General

Article 16. The Governor-General is the representative of the King of Talossa, and as such, shall have veto power over all laws of l'Etats. This veto may be overturned by a two third vote of l'Etats. The Governor-General is appointed by the King pursuant to the Organic Law.

Thus if one were to be Sénéchal and Governor-General -- even if allowed by l'Etats -- that person could double-dip if they were opposed to legislation both on the floor of l'Etats and via a subsequent veto power (as noted, this would not apply to the Lord Warden who is the Senator at the level of the Realm).

Offline Adam Grigoriu

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Re: Calling Council of Governors
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2021, 12:34:23 AM »
Given that situation, I reopen the floor for nominations.

That said, given the text of El Lex and the Cézembrian constitution, something doesn't match up here. El Lex states that the Governor-General, in this context, is the leader of the Council elected by the rest of the Council. The Cézembrian constitution refers to a Governor-General appointed by the King under a provision of the OrgLaw that I cannot find. I'm not a lawyer, and especially not the lawyer for the Government, but that doesn't make much sense.
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Offline Eðo Grischun

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Re: Calling Council of Governors
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2021, 07:54:19 AM »
Point of order.

It doesn't make much sense because the Governor-General of Cézembre and the Governor-General of this council are two different things.  Cézembre's Governor-General is the Crown's Cunstaval while this council's Governor-General is the chairman of this council.  El Lexhatx also explains that the council is composed of provincial Executives (ie: Cézembre's Sénéchal) whether called Governor or not. 

If S:r Briga is elected to serve as this council's Governor-General, Sir Siervicül would still be Cezembre's Governor-General (the Cunstaval).

A conflict doesn't exist.

I repeat my nomination of XPB for Governor-General (chairman of this council). :)
The Rt. Hon. Senator Éovart Grischun S.H.

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Senator of Vuode

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: Calling Council of Governors
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2021, 01:21:11 AM »
This is a problem caused by Cezembre's insistence on naming their Constable something funny, lol.

I re-nominate Sir X. Pol Briga as Chair of the Council of Governors.

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Offline Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir

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Re: Calling Council of Governors
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2021, 07:27:33 AM »
I also support the re-nomination of Sir X. Pol Briga as Chair of the Council of Governors
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Offline xpb

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Re: Calling Council of Governors
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2021, 07:40:08 AM »
Given these clarifications, I accept the nomination and can demonstrate to l'Etats that there are merely semantics involved, rather than some abuse of power.

Offline xpb

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Re: Calling Council of Governors
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2021, 07:49:43 AM »
Ataturk is currently holding our elections for Başbakan, and will conclude on the 23rd of September, however their is only one canditate in the race (but even so, according to the consitution of Ataturk, the elections must be held (by my reading)) Myself, i am a bit disappointed in the turnout of the election so far (Espeically as though it is by the consitution, i fear its legitimacy based on the involvment in the provincial Gorvernment we have), but still, this is not the place for that. Anyway it looks likely that I'll remain in the post of  Başbakan of Ataturk if things stay as they are, but will keep this place updated.

I note that I was "elected" Cézembre's Sénéchal in an poll that had no other candidate. 

I nominate Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir to be the Chair of the Council of Governors.

Thus, if accepted, both of us can experience at least some type of election, with one selected and perhaps the other to be named vice-chair.

Offline Eðo Grischun

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Re: Calling Council of Governors
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2021, 12:20:58 PM »
I move that we request the Ministry of the Interior to conduct an election as described by the member for Cezembre.
The Rt. Hon. Senator Éovart Grischun S.H.

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