Oh, good. Someone told me the CÚG never updated the vocabular in l'Överstéir, happy to find out that's wrong.

Because I can't believe no-one has done it before, I have collected all the "new" words in the Talossan language which were endorsed by the CÚG between 2007 and 2014, and put them in an alphabetised spreadsheet. I have done my best to update them to our new "provisional rules" spelling, I'm sure the SIGN Overlord can let me know any necessary corrections.

There are two issues ahead of us now:
1) adding these words to l'Överstéir (as well as updating the latter to ProvRules speling);
2) figuring out a formal process for adding new words to the language (shall we go with the tradition on a yearly Pienamaintsch on Llimbaziua?)

All right. Am I right that your Pienamaintsch could be rephrased in its entirety as:

Quote
1. Restore the letter å as it appeared in the pre-2007 Treisour.
2. Restore the digraph äi as it appeared in the pre-2007 Treisour.
3. All words ending in â in the pre-2007 Treisour are restored, with the final letter replaced by ă, although a is also acceptable. Replace word-final indamint with indămint.
4. Replace rh with r throughout.
5. Go through the entire lexicon, re-stressmarking according to the Stress Rule in the provisional spelling whererever necessary. This includes replacing stress marks with tremata wherever their only purpose is to mark a hiatus (e.g. actíu -> actïu).
6. Respell the word Civian "Kevin" as Chivian, correcting an earlier mistake when applying the 2007 Pienamaintsch.

I'm exhausted right now, but what I think I want to do is create a "Super-Pienamaintsch" which enables us to apply a single set of rules to the KR1-era Treisour, which might be easier than "rolling back" some of the changes that have happened (eg stress marking)

Quote from: Miestrâ Schiva, UrN on February 20, 2020, 08:30:57 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on February 20, 2020, 10:06:11 AM
So assuming the Pienamaintsch is acceptable like this: what happens next?

Considering that almost all Talossan-speakers use l'Översteir for translations: update l'Översteir in accordance with this Pienamaintsch.

Sorry, I just realised that that sounded like I was expecting you to do it all yourself, lol. :)

Should we actually:
1) get the Treisour database and divide it into sections;
2) call for volunteers to "update" those sections?

Could this be done by anyone with a basic knowledge of the language?

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on February 20, 2020, 10:06:11 AM
So assuming the Pienamaintsch is acceptable like this: what happens next?

Considering that almost all Talossan-speakers use l'Översteir for translations: update l'Översteir in accordance with this Pienamaintsch.

My priority is some consensus, any consensus, which allows us to move forward. My entire philosophy of Talossa is that I much prefer that something happen and someone take responsibility, even if it's something I don't like, than we just whine and cry and argue and wonder why people aren't interested in Talossa anymore.

Here's the direct quote from the PermSecCultDev:

QuoteSuppose I have created some new Talossan words. (Which I have.) Is there any approval system for getting new words entered into the Treisour and L'Oversteier? Like, SIGN having a committee of Talossan language experts who will review submitted words, see if they are Talossanically correct, and if so, into the official Talossan lexicon they go? (Talossan already has a fantastic vocabulary for a constructed language, but even so, I've found the need to make up new words.) (I was going to add, any citizen who creates five new words that are approved by the SIGN committee gets to move up a rank in the Zouaves, but since AD is going to be gone for awhile,I guess we'll have to scrap that idea.) (I know we should probably be more concerned about people actually learning Talossan than worrying about gaps in the vocabulary, but...I just like words! I use L'Oversteier almost every day.)

We really need that Pienamaintsch for the Provisional Rules so we can update l'Oversteir and older translations, btw.

I took the ironic portmanteau phrase "libelslander" from the famous legal Twitter account "Popehat", are you familiar with it?

I have a question from the incoming Cultural Development Secretary. What is the SIGN process for formally adopting new Talossan words into the lexicon/Overstéir/Treisour?

Quote from: Glüc on February 18, 2020, 05:30:48 PM

Quote from: Miestrâ Schiva, UrN on February 18, 2020, 05:00:38 PM

Let's put it this way. Would either of the following two events be, in your opinion, libel/slander which could and should be punished in Talossan Cort?

1) A Cabinet minister argues against a Talossan citizen receiving a state grant. Even though the citizen receives that grant, the citizen accuses the Cabinet minister of "corruption and illegitimate bias" for having argued against the grant at all.
2) One Talossan rises to say: "I have no evidence for this, but I'm pretty sure X citizen sent a poison-pen letter to Y citizen's employer, then claimed falsely to have received such a poison-pen letter him/herself, to cover his/her tracks."

No time/energy for a full response now, but the short answer:
1. No
2. I don't know.

Would you say either of these requires an intervention from forum staff?

I would agree with you on your estimations of whether they're legally "libelslander". But I would say that they both require intervention, because I would say that they are both raising the temperature of debate higher than they need to and making Talossa a less fun place to be. In my ideal world the responses would be

1) "Cut that out; play the ball, not the man" (an Anglophone expression which means "debate the issues, don't abuse people")
2) "Unless you have evidence, cut that out."

The thing is that if you don't think Talossans accusing each other of corruption and other "high crimes and misdemeanours" without evidence is a problem, then we don't have any kind of consensus on what New Wittiquette should look like.

Quote from: Glüc on February 18, 2020, 04:23:37 PM
Well, I think(?) libel is illegal in Talossa as well, so it should probably be a rule regardless. Proving it is obviously quite difficult.

That's an interesting question. Theoretically Talossa inherited Anglo-American libelslander common law, but as I mentioned, the definitions of the two are very different between American and British traditions, and no successful prosecution for libelslander has ever taken place in Talossa. In fact, most of the contents of the official history of our first 25 years as a nation are pure defamation by most people's definition.

Let's put it this way. Would either of the following two events be, in your opinion, libel/slander which could and should be punished in Talossan Cort?

1) A Cabinet minister argues against a Talossan citizen receiving a state grant. Even though the citizen receives that grant, the citizen accuses the Cabinet minister of "corruption and illegitimate bias" for having argued against the grant at all.
2) One Talossan rises to say: "I have no evidence for this, but I'm pretty sure X citizen sent a poison-pen letter to Y citizen's employer, then claimed falsely to have received such a poison-pen letter him/herself, to cover his/her tracks."

Quote"-Libel/slander ONLY when it concerns unsubstantiated claims that potentially have a major effect on someones reputation outside Wittenberg (e.g. such and such is a pedophile or similar). In other cases, wait for the courts first (admins are not fact-checkers)" and no insta-ban, but a potential ban after a warning in these extreme cases (or if court orders are being violated).

The problem with this, as I've indicated, is that the Corts have been historically extremely lax about what you're allowed to say about another Talossan as long as it stays "inside Talossa". Therefore this would, in practice, mean absolutely nothing.

QuoteMaking claims/allegations about Talossans that could be considered libel/slander...
Do not use abusive language. This may include swearing, wishing harm upon or threatening to harm other users...
Don't be a troll or otherwise post in a way that is intended solely to annoy people or infuriate them.

If these rules are actually enforced, New Witt will be 10 times as restrictive as old Witt and people will have to change their ways significantly!

To take them one by one:
- "Libelslander": you know for a fact that much of Talossan political discourse has degenerated into allegations of corruption or other criminal malfeasance on one hand and allegations of severe personality disorders on the other hand. Talossan tradition has taken a very relaxed view to this, acting more in the American tradition than the British Commonwealth tradition - in the US, "public figures" have few protections against libelslander unless you can prove actual malice, which is very hard. No-one has ever been successfully prosecuted for libelslander in Talossa. Are you saying that NewWittiquette will be much stricter than current legal standards?
- "Swearing": we had the Permanent Secretary to the Cabinet using the C*** word in the Shoutbox just yesterday, which is considered beyond the pale in most countries which aren't Scotland or Australia (even such rough-and-ready places such as New York or New Zealand would only take it out of the box in extreme necessity). I would prefer my own personal rule, that profane language (anything from bastard on upwards) should be tolerated only when in the Talossan language.
- "Don't be a troll": Actually I entirely approve of this as a standard, but it won't work as a rule without stopping certain citizens from posting altogether. The problem is that good trolling is always plausibly deniable - there is at least one Talossan citizen who has perfected the act of nasty trolling (basically slanderous accusations/nasty personal attacks couched in unobjectionable-seeming language) and then professing innocence ("what did I say?") when people get upset. Another part of the problem is that many of us don't speak English as our first language and might miss some of the subtleties of language which enable really nasty trolling.

This draft Wittiquette is a combination of too strict and too subjective.

Quote from: Glüc on February 15, 2020, 11:01:50 AM
I think we should avoid any of the following:

- Anything that results in citizens joining thinking that they might one day become King.
- Anyone campaigning to become King.
- Anyone taking up civil service duties because it might make them King someday.
- Any parties campaigning to make their members King.

Agreed.

Quote- Electing anyone we are not sure will be around for a long time (I can honestly think of very few Talossans who have been as consistently present for such a long time as King John). The best way to ensure this also means not...
- Electing anyone who hasn't already been around for a long time.

John had been a Talossan for 2-3 years before he became King. This was one of the main reasons why the Republic were aghast to find out that he was being proposed for the Slightly Battered Throne, despite his obvious qualities, considering he was a newcomer compared to the people who founded the Republic.

Quote
- A method that results in someone being elected based on the hype of the day rather than long term appreciation (remember this is supposed to be an appointment for life.)

See above. Many of the things you're complaining about are how the incumbent got there.

The simplistic answer would be: the Ziu on a one-individual-one-vote basis.

A more complex answer would be the Ziu + provincial delegates, on a one-individual-one-vote basis.

Final decision would have to be approved by the nation by 2/3 in referendum.