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Joint Statement on Solicitation

Started by Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP, April 22, 2022, 10:47:56 AM

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Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat

Ad hominems aside, what it sounds like is there are no regulations surrounding this sort of behavior. I'm still learning the Talossan Political process but is there not a way to draft a rule or rules and put them up for a vote?
Premieir of Maricopa
The Fulbright Fellow, Royal Talossan College of Arms
Member, Talossan Science Fiction, Fantasy & Whisky Society
Membreu dal Urderi dal Provinçù Soveran da Maricopa

Ián S.G. Txaglh

Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on April 23, 2022, 09:32:19 AM
Ad hominems aside, what it sounds like is there are no regulations surrounding this sort of behavior. I'm still learning the Talossan Political process but is there not a way to draft a rule or rules and put them up for a vote?

sadly, legislation often does not forsee and does not take in account each an every dirty trick played by politicians to get what they want. last 8 yrs in czechia are quite a good example how our idealistic constitution was often used as a toilet paper by the new generation of populistic politicians. this new political "culture" on both sides of the ocean, and as i see, also here, in talossa, unfortunately cannot be solved by rules, cos those can be twisted and surpassed, but only by keeping ethical integrity. otherwise there will be rules to correct rules to correct rules and we'll be in a formalistic legal hell.

can someone remind me why and how the republic of talossa turned into being? [hint, it is a rhetoric question] i do not want it to happen again, although i would gladly leave players like the esteemed senator t. in their sandbox and move somewhere else, where the air is a bit fresher.

Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP

Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on April 23, 2022, 09:32:19 AM
Ad hominems aside, what it sounds like is there are no regulations surrounding this sort of behavior. I'm still learning the Talossan Political process but is there not a way to draft a rule or rules and put them up for a vote?

I'm not sure there's a good way to do that without going against your right to organize political parties and organizations under the Third Covenant.

It's something that isn't generally well-received in parliamentary systems, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can illegalize it without opening up a different can of worms. Individual MCs may affiliate how they please, though as S:reu Tafial noted, it would be a massive blow to your credibility to agree to something like this.
Minister of Technology
The Long Fellow, Royal Talossan College of Arms
Specialist, Els Zuávs da l'Altahál Rexhitál
Zirecteir Naziunal, Parti da Reformaziun

Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat

Quote from: Ián S.G. Txaglh on April 23, 2022, 03:04:26 PM
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on April 23, 2022, 09:32:19 AM
Ad hominems aside, what it sounds like is there are no regulations surrounding this sort of behavior. I'm still learning the Talossan Political process but is there not a way to draft a rule or rules and put them up for a vote?

sadly, legislation often does not forsee and does not take in account each an every dirty trick played by politicians to get what they want. last 8 yrs in czechia are quite a good example how our idealistic constitution was often used as a toilet paper by the new generation of populistic politicians. this new political "culture" on both sides of the ocean, and as i see, also here, in talossa, unfortunately cannot be solved by rules, cos those can be twisted and surpassed, but only by keeping ethical integrity. otherwise there will be rules to correct rules to correct rules and we'll be in a formalistic legal hell.

I completely agree, but only one of those 2 things can be controlled. You can't control a persons ethics but you can at least enforce a minimum ethical standard. (I also find it interesting that apparently how severe this offense is viewed is at least mildly correlated to your macro-national political culture.)
Premieir of Maricopa
The Fulbright Fellow, Royal Talossan College of Arms
Member, Talossan Science Fiction, Fantasy & Whisky Society
Membreu dal Urderi dal Provinçù Soveran da Maricopa

Miestră Schivă, UrN

I'm pretty sure that there's no way to make "being a jerk" or "acting in bad faith" or "accusing people of being bullies for calling you out for being a jerk" illegal, nor should it be in a free society. I don't want to live in a society where everything that's legal is considered socially acceptable, though.

However, such behaviour should attract a political cost. If parties do things like this and it's universally condemned, and perhaps even their own voters tell their leaders they went too far trying to get political advantage, then maybe it won't happen again.

Which is why this shouldn't be a pile-on of FreeDems/PdR supporters. It would be great to see at least one person who voted TNC saying that this isn't acceptable behaviour from the person they voted for as Seneschal.

Vote THE FREE DEMOCRATS OF TALOSSA
¡LADINTSCHIÇETZ-VOI - rogetz-mhe cacsa!
"They proved me right, they proved me wrong, but they could never last this long"

owenedwards

Having known Senator Tzaracomprada for 15 years - and been, I hope, a friend of his for that time - I can only say that, *as to ethical intentions only* (no legal comment here), I cannot believe there was any malice in this. If we want to avoid the sort of atmosphere "of the KR1 era", or of the period that drove me from the Kingdom for a few years, then I'd counsel some degree of caution in ascribing malice, corruption, etc. I think this is very unwise.
Puisne Justice

Breneir Tzaracomprada

Quote from: owenedwards on April 23, 2022, 04:57:36 PM
Having known Senator Tzaracomprada for 15 years - and been, I hope, a friend of his for that time - I can only say that, *as to ethical intentions only* (no legal comment here), I cannot believe there was any malice in this. If we want to avoid the sort of atmosphere "of the KR1 era", or of the period that drove me from the Kingdom for a few years, then I'd counsel some degree of caution in ascribing malice, corruption, etc. I think this is very unwise.

Thank you friend for your support and for this wise counsel.

Glüc da Dhi S.H.

Quote from: Ián S.G. Txaglh on April 23, 2022, 03:04:26 PM

sadly, legislation often does not forsee and does not take in account each an every dirty trick played by politicians to get what they want. last 8 yrs in czechia are quite a good example how our idealistic constitution was often used as a toilet paper by the new generation of populistic politicians.
You do get to have pirates in government though, so maybe its not all bad :P
Director of Money Laundering and Sportswashing, Banqeu da Cézembre

Antonio Montagnha, Ed. D.

Or calling someone stupid, or going after their mental health therapy...

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 23, 2022, 04:46:14 PM
I'm pretty sure that there's no way to make "being a jerk" or "acting in bad faith" or "accusing people of being bullies for calling you out for being a jerk" illegal, nor should it be in a free society. I don't want to live in a society where everything that's legal is considered socially acceptable, though.

However, such behaviour should attract a political cost. If parties do things like this and it's universally condemned, and perhaps even their own voters tell their leaders they went too far trying to get political advantage, then maybe it won't happen again.

Which is why this shouldn't be a pile-on of FreeDems/PdR supporters. It would be great to see at least one person who voted TNC saying that this isn't acceptable behaviour from the person they voted for as Seneschal.
Antonio Montagnha, Ed. D., MC
Deputy Minister of Culture Select, Member of the 57th Cosa
Member, Talossan Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Whisky Society

Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

#24
My goodness!  Quite an excited pile-up in my absence!  Not sure where to start!  Maybe it's better to just note that the better graces of @owenedwards , @Antonio Montagnha, Ed. D. , @Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu , and others are probably right to note that the insults seem... "disproportionate," maybe?

I don't think that it's wrong to try to convince a Member of Cosa to defect from a coalition or government, and it happens in other countries from time to time -- a couple of weeks ago, in fact, the coalition whip of the Israeli governing majority, Idit Silman, defected to Likud and thereby ended the coalition's majority in the Knesset, and a few years ago in the UK the Tories lost their majority when Philip Lee defected to the Liberal Democrats.  Now, I'm not such a scholar of political science as many here, so maybe there's some differences I'm missing, but this process doesn't seem all that unusual, much less shocking.  In South Africa, it was actually regulated officially for a decade -- you were allowed two defections a year, no more!

Some countries have laws against this practice, like India, but it's commonplace in America.  In 2001, Jim Jeffords of Vermont actually shifted control of that chamber when he joined the Democrats.

If we'd like to establish a new norm in Talossa that we don't want to allow this practice, then that's fine with me.  Let's be specific, and see if we can put it into law.  But maybe lower the invective a little bit, either way?
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan


Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Ian Plätschisch

Reposting because people seem to be missing the main point.
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on April 22, 2022, 09:05:16 PM
Voters vote for a party, not for individuals. It is thus clear that the TNC was encouraging an MC to betray their own voters, which seems pretty bad.

Miestră Schivă, UrN

#26
deleted because of cluelessness on my part

Vote THE FREE DEMOCRATS OF TALOSSA
¡LADINTSCHIÇETZ-VOI - rogetz-mhe cacsa!
"They proved me right, they proved me wrong, but they could never last this long"

Glüc da Dhi S.H.

The OrgLaw doesnt allow parties to just reassign seats though. Parties assign seats, but "MCs may not be removed from office except by a two-thirds vote by the Cosa and approval by the King. An MC vacates his seats if he fails to vote on two consecutive Clarks, or if he resigns from office or dies."

Nowhere in the OrgLaw is it mentioned that parties can remove their MCs.

Note: not supposed to be a comment on the ethical (or personal) matters being discussed here. Kinda want to stay out that.
Director of Money Laundering and Sportswashing, Banqeu da Cézembre

Miestră Schivă, UrN

I'm informed by my colleagues that Glüc is right and I was wrong about the constitutional situation.  :-[

Vote THE FREE DEMOCRATS OF TALOSSA
¡LADINTSCHIÇETZ-VOI - rogetz-mhe cacsa!
"They proved me right, they proved me wrong, but they could never last this long"