Okay then, here we go.  I solved the convocation thing by having the SoS run it as chair, but their decision appealable to the Uppermost Cort and with voting overseen by the heads of the Ziu.  I also fixed a lot of language and simplified a bit.  I think it solves all the problems I saw; hypothetically someone could try to game the system by appealing to the CpI over and over, but I don't think that's much of a path to corruption.  I removed all the timeline stuff and statute stuff that would let governments or officials try to meddle and game the system.  I kept more of the original language (why borrow trouble?)


Whereas, the monarchy is a central pillar of the country and its survival depends on its planned future as well as its activity, and

Whereas, this allows for democratic confirmations without becoming wholesale elections,

THEREFORE, the Ziu directs that Article II of the Organic Law, which currently read:

QuoteSection 1
The Kingdom of Talossa is a constitutional Monarchy with a King (or, if female, Queen) as its head of State.

Section 2
The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King certain Royal Powers and duties as described in this Organic Law and in statute law. The Ziu may establish procedures for when the King fails to perform a duty.

Section 3
The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

Section 4
In dire circumstances, when the King is judged by competent medical authority to be incapable of executing his duties, or if he is convicted by the Talossan Uppermost Cort of violation of this Organic Law, treason, bribery, nonfeasance endangering the safety, order or good government of the Kingdom, or other high crimes, the nation may remove the King from the Throne. The Cosa shall pronounce by a two-thirds vote, with the approval of the Senäts, that the King is to be removed, and this pronouncement shall immediately be transmitted to the people for their verdict in a referendum. If a two-thirds majority of the people concur, the King is removed.

Section 5
The King may, at whim, appoint, replace, or remove a Regent (or a Council of Regency, which is considered equivalent to a Regent), who shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, except the power to appoint or replace a Regent. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent or member of a Council of Regency. The Ziu may by law remove or replace any appointed Regent, and if the Ziu removes a Regent appointed by the King, the King may not reappoint the same person Regent without the prior consent of the Ziu.

Section 6
The King may grant titles of nobility and confer awards and decorations.

shall be amended to read as follows:

QuoteSection 1
The Kingdom of Talossa is a constitutional Monarchy with a King (or, if female, Queen) as its head of State.

Section 2
The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King certain Royal Powers and duties as described in this Organic Law and in statute law. In addition, the King may grant titles of nobility and confer awards and decorations.

Section 3
The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne.  Upon his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne, the new King shall be the Heir Presumptive, who shall be the duly-designated successor to the throne.  The new King shall likewise be succeeded in the same manner, and thus forever in perpetuity.

Section 4
Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne.  However, the King may abdicate without renouncing his citizenship.

Section 5
In dire circumstances, when the King is judged by competent medical authority to be incapable of executing his duties, or if he is convicted by the Talossan Uppermost Cort of violation of this Organic Law, treason, bribery, nonfeasance endangering the safety, order or good government of the Kingdom, or other high crimes, the nation may remove the King from the Throne. The Cosa shall pronounce by a two-thirds vote, with the approval of the Senäts, that the King is to be removed, and this pronouncement shall immediately be transmitted to the people for their verdict in a referendum. If a two-thirds majority of the people concur, the King is removed.

Section 6
The King may, at whim, appoint, replace, or remove a Regent (or a Council of Regency, which is considered equivalent to a Regent), who shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, except the power to appoint or replace a Regent. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent or member of a Council of Regency. The Ziu may by law remove or replace any appointed Regent, and if the Ziu removes a Regent appointed by the King, the King may not reappoint the same person Regent without the prior consent of the Ziu.

Section 7
The King may nominate an Heir Presumptive by special decree to the Ziu.  This decree shall take effect upon approval of a two-thirds supermajority of the Ziu and by a majority of the people.

Section 8
Upon any vacancy on the Throne with no Heir Presumptive, the Secretary of State shall announce a convocation of succession.  This announcement will include details of the convocation of succession, as described by the Secretary of State.  The Secretary of State shall also include in this announcement a set of proposed rules and procedures for the convocation of succession, for public debate and consideration.  This announcement shall further include a list of all those who have been citizens no fewer than seven full years prior to that date, and who are therefore eligible electors of the convocation.  The Secretary of State shall shall immediately thereafter notify all of these electors of the convocation and their responsibilities.

Fourteen days after this announcement, the convocation shall be deemed to have commenced.  It shall be chaired by the Secretary of State in a fair manner designed to foster open discussion and faithful service.  The convocation of succession's first order of business shall be to approve, with or without modifications, the rules under which it will operate.   A decision of the chair may be appealed to the Uppermost Cort.  The convocation shall vote by secret ballot on a King.  The Túischac'h dal Cosa and the Mençei dal Senäts shall observe voting and ensure its fidelity.  All electors' votes shall have equal weight, and whichever candidate first receives the support of two-thirds of the convocation shall be deemed the nominee of the convocation of succession.  No votes for ineligible candidates shall be considered.  This choice shall be submitted to the people by referendum for their approval.  Should a majority of the people approve of the nominee, they shall be King of the Kingdom of Talossa.

Section 9
For the duration of any time during which the throne is empty, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

Well obvious problems with the convocation process still exist! Can I write up a new version of it or tell you what the problems are again? Most fundamentally, it's a terrible idea to have the people holding the power schedule out when an election will happen and run the process for the most part.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 17, 2024, 04:53:53 PM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 17, 2024, 01:23:43 PMThe other thing is a really good start, but I do think it would be really preferable to include the convocation thing as well. I'm ready to write up a version of it to hash out the details, presuming you're okay with the basic concept. I don't think it should take that long.

Just posted my own version with the Convocation provisions cut-and-pasted from Brenéir's/Ian P.'s proposal. Can you tell me - because I think you're in a position to know - will this get at least 3 TNC MCs in favour of it?

I should also note the Abdication bill is "post-dated", to allow both the Succession Amendment to pass and His Maj to actually nominate his successor, should he choose to do so. Does that sound good?

At a basic level, maybe? We do still need to fix some of the fine details to make it work. I notice that you seem to be trying to steer me away from writing any of the actual text of the bill. Would you prefer to do it yourself, and I can just tell you the problems with the text as it stands? Or would you prefer I write a modified draft of what you have proposed?

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 17, 2024, 01:10:52 AM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 16, 2024, 09:55:08 PMI have to admit that I don't really understand the point of this legislation? The legislature can amend the Orglaw and submit the amendment for ratification by the people, or can depose the king by a similarly high standard of passage for certain specified causes, but this appears to just be an ephemeral bill to depose the king?

If the king wishes to abdicate, he doesn't need this legislation. If he does not wish to abdicate, this probably would need to be phrased differently.

It's copy-pasted from the bill that ratified the abdication of Edward VIII of the UK. There is no law or Organic provision governing the manner and form of abdications. So I figured this manner/form would be as good as any other, and in the precedent of a respected constitutional monarchy, and wouldn't require "Organically decapitating" the incumbent.

Any comment on whether the other thing, the Succession Amendment, is good enough?

I would assume we would stick with our own tradition, where the sovereign affirms their intentions under a declaration like any other they would make above their signature. But really it's up to the king, so I guess it doesn't matter.

The other thing is a really good start, but I do think it would be really preferable to include the convocation thing as well. I'm ready to write up a version of it to hash out the details, presuming you're okay with the basic concept. I don't think it should take that long.

I assign this applicant to you then, TLF, with the request that you seek to stay within the customary tinctures if reasonably possible. In my personal opinion, exceptions should be made only when it cannot be avoided because of established history, precedent, important connection, or extremely clever idea.

-Dean

I have to admit that I don't really understand the point of this legislation? The legislature can amend the Orglaw and submit the amendment for ratification by the people, or can depose the king by a similarly high standard of passage for certain specified causes, but this appears to just be an ephemeral bill to depose the king?

If the king wishes to abdicate, he doesn't need this legislation. If he does not wish to abdicate, this probably would need to be phrased differently.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 15, 2024, 10:08:59 PM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 15, 2024, 07:36:42 PMWe should establish an expectation and a norm in the law that His Majesty nominates someone, the Ziu approves it, and the people affirm it.

I have to reiterate the expressed position of the Free Democrats that Ziu approval must be OrgLaw-amendment threshold, i.e. 2/3 of the Cosa.

I also don't want to be in the position I have been over and over again in Talossa - where I express myself loosely and AD decides that I just agreed with him and bulldozes forward on that position. This is not a "compromise". This is an alternative.

Just to confirm: I want to write a bill where an Organic procedure is established for nominating a successor.  In this procedure, the monarch will nominate their successor, and that person will then receive supermajority Ziu confirmation (or not).  After and only after that approval is received, the nominee would be transmitted to the people for their confirmation through a majority referendum.  The same bill will also contain procedures for filling a vacant throne, and they will be similar to the basic idea of the convocation proposed by Breneir.  And finally -- painfully -- the bill will contain a sunset clause which automatically vacates the throne unless His Majesty has already had a nominee confirmed by the Ziu.

Obviously the Ziu could just do all of this at any time, but the procedure will be there as an expectation to be followed.  And presumably it would then be followed.

This is literally exactly what I just said a moment ago and what you agreed to.  Does that all sound okay?

I realize that this would be ceding some of the things you'd like to get.  The throne would never be empty, so the opportunity to keep it empty would be gone.  And that makes it harder to end the monarchy permanently.  This would also mean that your closest ally wouldn't directly become the king, as Breneir has been advocating.

Instead, this would be a consensus move that represents compromise for everyone in the name of helping our ailing country.  It would be a compromise on your part, since for right now you'd be setting aside your larger goal of ending the monarchy in the name of fixing the present situation.

Quote from: þerxh Sant-Enogat on April 16, 2024, 12:19:19 AM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 15, 2024, 07:59:42 PMIf I write it, someone will have to sponsor it. Hopefully someone will agree to do so on my behalf?

Why not.. Can you show us what this would be like ?

Since Miestra guides the bulk of her party's votes, I'm not going to write it until there's a deal on the table with her.  But my reply to her, above, has the basic plan.  We need to get this situation fixed.

Tonight I am processing the ID cards, but I think the language for a compromise bipartisan bill will be pretty easy to write up, and I bet I can get it done tomorrow. Fixing the convocation proposal will be the trickiest part. The SoS will probably need to be in charge, with a standard electoral commission for backup.

If I write it, someone will have to sponsor it. Hopefully someone will agree to do so on my behalf?

There's a difference between what is technically allowable and what is normatively expected.  We should establish an expectation and a norm in the law that His Majesty nominates someone, the Ziu approves it, and the people affirm it.  Technically, the Ziu can always just do whatever the hell it wants and send it to the people -- a Living Cosa could be held that just involved nude hula-hooping, if the Ziu wanted it.  (I would win such a contest, for the record, although all observers would be struck blind with horror/ecstasy.)

Okay, then, sounds like we really do have a path forward.

Florence did fine until she got sick of it, and Louis was hereditary.

I don't think there is any magical taint involved in the king having some say in the process that would not be abrogated by both the approval of the duly elected legislature followed by the approval of the people as a whole.

I personally will never support any solution to the current temporary situation when it would lead to permanent disability or destruction of one of our most important institutions. If we agree that we're in a bad spot, surely we can just fix the problem -- are we really saying that we won't help the country unless we can also advance our personal goals at the same time?

Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on April 15, 2024, 10:38:28 AM

Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on April 15, 2024, 09:16:52 AMHave we considered just asking the King who he would want his successor to be?

A concern of a lot of FreeDems is that, if the King picks, his selection would be unpalatable. If we ask in advance, we could see if that person would have broad support and then we can just amend the Organic Law accordingly, without all the red tape.

If only we knew someone who had the King's ear...

After I explained the situation to him, I offered my resignation from the Sabor. So I don't know if that person is still myself. I can ask him, but I don't know if he has anyone in mind. I very much doubt that he does!

Honestly, my expectation is that he would not participate in whatever process we establish. We should be thinking about this whole thing in terms of a longer future, not the immediate circumstance. We are trying to fix the country permanently.

How about this threading of the needle: generally speaking, the process will be for the future that the sovereign nominates a successor who is confirmed by the legislature and then by plebiscite. This change could be written to become effective 30 days after confirmation of the amendment, with a contingent clause stating that the throne will also become empty at that time if there is no successor yet confirmed by the legislature. And then a fixed and saner version of the convocation process detailed in the other thread could be put in place for any time the throne is empty, including immediately.

This is not an ideal scenario at all. In my opinion, giving the legislature a voice is a mistake generally, because it politicizes the process more than we should really want. I would prefer just a royal nomination that passes to a plebiscite. But in for a penny, in for a pound. I am already compromising a ton, and I can go a little bit further to make this happen.

I believe this would satisfy everyone's needs, even if no one would be perfectly happy with it. And I could help right the language and fix some of the weirdness of the convocation procedure.

Let the monarch nominate someone, confirmed by the Ziu and then by the people. It is the really obvious and sensible solution, even if it affords His Majesty little say in the matter. It takes advantage of our political system to provide a check, without turning the issue into a direct election that would destroy what value a monarchy can offer.

His Majesty did not endorse this view and might well oppose it, and for my part in this discussion I will be offering him my resignation as his counselor. I am not here showing loyalty to him, and that is hard for me. This is a conversation predicated on a future where he will leave the throne. But I am being loyal to the higher things that he too has venerated: country and honour.

My actual expectation is that he will decline to participate in the process once the larger change is made. But the man has saved the country more than once, helped shape it into much of what it is today, and has served with decency. He deserves this voice in the process. And more to the point, the institution is larger than him and this is the way it should happen for the larger future.

@Breneir Tzaracomprada , just wanted to check and make sure you could see my posts and there's no sort of glitch or anything.

Earlier in this thread, I wrote at length about some obvious problems I saw with the bill, and you replied after me and said that you didn't see any objections being made.  And now again, you seem to be unaware of arguments I made with a significant investment of my time and thought -- not even acknowledging them but just addressing Miestra.  Is it just that you're ignoring me?  That's certainly your prerogative, but I thought I'd check.

Quote from: Sir Lüc on April 13, 2024, 01:31:38 PMThis is a bit of an issue as I'd love to encourage further debate, but I don't know if that's possible under the rules we currently operate under. I suppose we could stipulate that if any amendments are made, the bill must go through the CRL again. I'd love to hear what the A-X and Mençei think.

Legally, it is made explicit that the bill may be amended after CRL approval, and it doesn't have to go through the CRL again.  It would only need to go through again if it is "so substantially different from its form as a legislative proposal when "passed to committee" that it constitutes a significantly different proposal" (Lexh.H.2.1.7.4).

You are certainly welcome to send it through the CRL again if you want another set of eyes on it after you change it up.

Props to Gluc for the Rawlsian veil of ignorance approach, by the way. That's definitely a really important way to think about this!