WHEREAS Russia's aggression against Ukraine and China's genocide of the Uyghurs are very worthy of being condemned, and
WHEREAS TNC MC Tzaracomprada has introduced Senses of the Ziu condemning them, and
WHEREAS Despite his eloquent writing, MC Tzaracomprada's true motivation for introducing these Senses is likely to politically embarrass the Free Democrats for their ongoing boycott of TNC legislation, and
WHEREAS The evidence of this is that he has not introduced any similar Senses in the previous several Cosas, despite (unfortunately) there being plenty of bad things going on in the world which could have been condemned, and
WHEREAS I reject the use of sanctions because they disproportionally harm the poor of every nation they are inflicted on, while exerting almost no influence on the governments of those nations, and
WHEREAS Because I am removing the endorsement of sanctions from MC Tzaracomprada's original Sense concerning Russia's war in Ukraine, this is a substantively different bill and not a straight copy
THEREFORE Be it resolved that the Ziu of the Kingdom of Talossa:
Supports the people of Ukraine in their fight to repel invaders and re-establish self-determination
Encourages the International Criminal Court to investigate war crimes committed by Russian invaders
Condemns the Russian blockade of Ukrainian wheat as an terrible disruption of peaceful commerce which could plunge millions into starvation
Recognizes the treatment of Uyghurs by the Chinese Communist Party as a genocide and encourages other countries to do the same
Calls on the applicable human rights organizations to investigate this genocide
Ureu q'estadra sa:
Ian Plätschisch (Sen-MM)
Seneschal, you are mistaken about the motivation but your partisanship-based assumption does not surprise me given your recent behavior.
I have proposed Senses of the Ziu on climate change, gender equality, and UN leadership. I have further proposed establishment of the former Human Rights Day national holiday and acts supporting democratic uprisings in Burma. So my current proposals are a part of long personal tradition here in Talossa.
So the legislative blockade is... well, kind of a sham, huh! As soon as it becomes too embarrassing, it's set aside and the Seneschal slaps his name on a TNC proposal.
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on July 10, 2022, 08:01:52 PM
WHEREAS Russia's aggression against Ukraine and China's genocide of the Uyghurs are very worthy of being condemned, and
WHEREAS TNC MC Tzaracomprada has introduced Senses of the Ziu condemning them, and
WHEREAS Despite his eloquent writing, MC Tzaracomprada's true motivation for introducing these Senses is likely to politically embarrass the Free Democrats for their ongoing boycott of TNC legislation, and
WHEREAS The evidence of this is that he has not introduced any similar Senses in the previous several Cosas, despite (unfortunately) there being plenty of bad things going on in the world which could have been condemned, and
WHEREAS I reject the use of sanctions because they disproportionally harm the poor of every nation they are inflicted on, while exerting almost no influence on the governments of those nations, and
WHEREAS Because I am removing the endorsement of sanctions from MC Tzaracomprada's original Sense concerning Russia's war in Ukraine, this is a substantively different bill and not a straight copy
THEREFORE Be it resolved that the Ziu of the Kingdom of Talossa:
Supports the people of Ukraine in their fight to repel invaders and re-establish self-determination
Encourages the International Criminal Court to investigate war crimes committed by Russian invaders
Condemns the Russian blockade of Ukrainian wheat as an terrible disruption of peaceful commerce which could plunge millions into starvation
Recognizes the treatment of Uyghurs by the Chinese Communist Party as a genocide and encourages other countries to do the same
Calls on the applicable human rights organizations to investigate this genocide
Ureu q'estadra sa:
Ian Plätschisch (Sen-MM)
While I try to be open minded and avoid the political games the major parties play I feel I must comment on this and point out the obvious attempt to insult and embarrass the TNC here. Whether MC Tzaracomprada had submitted other Senses in the past has no bearing upon the fact that he DID submit both of the items mentioned in your Sense. Furthermore you have also attacked me personally as I was listed as a cosponsor. This makes me believe that you wish to make a political enemy of me despite the fact that I have voted for and against acts submitted by each party. I find this shameful on the part of the Seneschal!
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 10, 2022, 09:22:54 PM
So the legislative blockade is... well, kind of a sham, huh! As soon as it becomes too embarrassing, it's set aside and the Seneschal slaps his name on a TNC proposal.
Imagine what you'd be saying if the FreeDems didn't provide this replacement: "I can't believe that the Free Democrats idolize Vladimir Putin, pine for the reconstitution of the Soviet Union, and rejoice at the organized slaughter of Uyghurs."
The FreeDems are taking a principled stand on our boycott of TNC legislation, are we won't fall into the trap set by the TNC to end it.
So you are swearing to oppose all legislation proposed by the TNC, unless it would be too embarrassing to do so?
And you're calling that... a "principled stand."
"I will not abandon my principled stand to stay on this hunger strike until the prisoners are freed, with only occasional exceptions for lunch."
Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on July 10, 2022, 09:37:09 PM
While I try to be open minded and avoid the political games the major parties play I feel I must comment on this and point out the obvious attempt to insult and embarrass the TNC here. Whether MC Tzaracomprada had submitted other Senses in the past has no bearing upon the fact that he DID submit both of the items mentioned in your Sense. Furthermore you have also attacked me personally as I was listed as a cosponsor. This makes me believe that you wish to make a political enemy of me despite the fact that I have voted for and against acts submitted by each party. I find this shameful on the part of the Seneschal!
It's unfortunate it came across this way.
From the FreeDem perspective, MC Tzaracomprada's Senses were really an attempt to insult and embarrass the Free Democrats. All of the sudden, after years of not proposing anything, he suddenly proposes these Senses. It would be so easy to paint any opposition to them as cruel (see my post above), that I can't help but think that was the intention.
The reason for the boycott is very clear; the TNC promised their voters that they would propose Monarchy reform, and they have stubbornly refused to do so. All of this is simply an attempt to distract from that.
I did not mean to attack you personally.
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 10, 2022, 09:57:28 PM
"I will not abandon my principled stand to stay on this hunger strike until the prisoners are freed, with only occasional exceptions for lunch."
I must admit I laughed at this.
I think there's a point being missed here. The Seneschál has a substantive problem with the TNC's "Senses", in that he doesn't agree that sanctions are useful. I'm not sure I agree with that, but I think both sides have to resile from mutual accusation of "you're only doing this to make us look bad".
... but, honestly, aren't we all trying to make each other look bad? To humiliate, embarrass, and infuriate each other?
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on July 10, 2022, 09:57:58 PM
Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on July 10, 2022, 09:37:09 PM
While I try to be open minded and avoid the political games the major parties play I feel I must comment on this and point out the obvious attempt to insult and embarrass the TNC here. Whether MC Tzaracomprada had submitted other Senses in the past has no bearing upon the fact that he DID submit both of the items mentioned in your Sense. Furthermore you have also attacked me personally as I was listed as a cosponsor. This makes me believe that you wish to make a political enemy of me despite the fact that I have voted for and against acts submitted by each party. I find this shameful on the part of the Seneschal!
It's unfortunate it came across this way.
From the FreeDem perspective, MC Tzaracomprada's Senses were really an attempt to insult and embarrass the Free Democrats. All of the sudden, after years of not proposing anything, he suddenly proposes these Senses. It would be so easy to paint any opposition to them as cruel (see my post above), that I can't help but think that was the intention.
The reason for the boycott is very clear; the TNC promised their voters that they would propose Monarchy reform, and they have stubbornly refused to do so. All of this is simply an attempt to distract from that.
I did not mean to attack you personally.
In my personal opinion this blockade is childish and unhelpful. As I have said I have voted for and against items from both parties. I have submitted one act which I now see has zero chance of being approved despite the fact that in the grand scheme it means absolutely nothing, just because the TNC was the first party to offer me a seat. The FreeDems also offered me a seat but I chose to accept the TNC's offer simply because they were first. I am appalled by the sad behavior by both parties at times but this is not only childish it is in many ways plagiarism. Changing a couple of words does not change the act itself. This is an attack on me, on Breneir and on democracy!
Have you wondered, Tric'hard, why you are calling it a "blockade" rather than a boycott? If you think about that for a moment, you might begin to understand why the FreeDems have been forced to take such action.
And no-one ever suggested boycotting your bill precisely because, as you say, you're not a TNC member. You are believing things which aren't true because... someone told you so?
Tric'hard with respect to the Senses of the Ziu I am hopeful they will be passed in the first clark after the next election since they are being blocked by the FDT and the PdR during this Cosa. I am gratified that the FDT found exceptions in their blockade so that your first bill might be passed.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 10, 2022, 10:17:26 PM
... but, honestly, aren't we all trying to make each other look bad? To humiliate, embarrass, and infuriate each other?
God I hope not... Gross
Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on July 11, 2022, 06:40:57 PM
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 10, 2022, 10:17:26 PM
... but, honestly, aren't we all trying to make each other look bad? To humiliate, embarrass, and infuriate each other?
God I hope not... Gross
What do you think the role of an opposition in a parliamentary democracy should be?
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 11, 2022, 05:54:46 PM
Have you wondered, Tric'hard, why you are calling it a "blockade" rather than a boycott? If you think about that for a moment, you might begin to understand why the FreeDems have been forced to take such action.
And no-one ever suggested boycotting your bill precisely because, as you say, you're not a TNC member. You are believing things which aren't true because... someone told you so?
I used blockade because that is the term I have seen used most often, my personal term for it is childish pettiness. Now don't get me wrong I have seen some of the same pettiness on the part of the TNC, but I was brought up to believe that two wrongs do not make a right. The blockade or boycott or flugelfart if that is what you want to call it is flat out wrong!
Be that as it may, should my party declare an end to the formal boycott, I'm still going to vote against about 90% of TNC bills - i.e. those which are mean-spirited, ill-thought out, or which I'm just opposed to on principle. I'm sure you're not going to argue that I don't have the right to vote against whatever doesn't appear to me to be a good idea?
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 12, 2022, 03:02:52 AM
Be that as it may, should my party declare an end to the formal boycott, I'm still going to vote against about 90% of TNC bills - i.e. those which are mean-spirited, ill-thought out, or which I'm just opposed to on principle. I'm sure you're not going to argue that I don't have the right to vote against whatever doesn't appear to me to be a good idea?
Absolutely not, but making it "formal" is just wrong. It reminds me too much of how the U.S. government works. It's our way or no way at all, screw the other side, do everything one can to make them look bad and steal what you don't come up with yourself. I've seen too much of that living in the United States, it is honestly one of the things that drew me to the idea of joining a micronation, and sadly it is now one of the things making me think I may have been wasting my time because it appears to be the exact same pettiness here.
Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on July 12, 2022, 08:15:32 AM
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 12, 2022, 03:02:52 AM
Be that as it may, should my party declare an end to the formal boycott, I'm still going to vote against about 90% of TNC bills - i.e. those which are mean-spirited, ill-thought out, or which I'm just opposed to on principle. I'm sure you're not going to argue that I don't have the right to vote against whatever doesn't appear to me to be a good idea?
Absolutely not, but making it "formal" is just wrong. It reminds me too much of how the U.S. government works. It's our way or no way at all, screw the other side, do everything one can to make them look bad and steal what you don't come up with yourself. I've seen too much of that living in the United States, it is honestly one of the things that drew me to the idea of joining a micronation, and sadly it is now one of the things making me think I may have been wasting my time because it appears to be the exact same pettiness here.
Tric'hard, you are not wasting your time and I will say your contributions have been noticable and welcome. Let's get your first bill passed and start work on the next one.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on July 12, 2022, 08:31:27 AM
Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on July 12, 2022, 08:15:32 AM
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 12, 2022, 03:02:52 AM
Be that as it may, should my party declare an end to the formal boycott, I'm still going to vote against about 90% of TNC bills - i.e. those which are mean-spirited, ill-thought out, or which I'm just opposed to on principle. I'm sure you're not going to argue that I don't have the right to vote against whatever doesn't appear to me to be a good idea?
Absolutely not, but making it "formal" is just wrong. It reminds me too much of how the U.S. government works. It's our way or no way at all, screw the other side, do everything one can to make them look bad and steal what you don't come up with yourself. I've seen too much of that living in the United States, it is honestly one of the things that drew me to the idea of joining a micronation, and sadly it is now one of the things making me think I may have been wasting my time because it appears to be the exact same pettiness here.
Tric'hard, you are not wasting your time and I will say your contributions have been noticable and welcome. Let's get your first bill passed and start work on the next one.
Speaking of my bill, is it 10 days from my original proposal or from the last edit before I can request that it go to committee?
That is correct, 10 days. Which would be 14 July?
Oh, and it is from the original posting :)
This bill is withdrawn