The Vacant Throne (We Really Mean Business Now) Amendment

Started by Miestră Schivă, UrN, April 11, 2024, 07:34:49 PM

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Miestră Schivă, UrN

WHEREAS the King is not living up to the expectations of his citizens in a variety of ways; and

WHEREAS people have complained before but to no effect; and

WHEREAS the above two lines were copy-pasted from a bill first Hoppered five years ago (https://talossa.proboards.com/thread/13577/mean-business-amendment) and nothing significant has changed; and

WHEREAS we need a broad social consensus for any changes to the institution of the Monarchy, which we may not have after years of trying to get one; and

WHEREAS perhaps we do have a consensus on a more narrow issue:

THEREFORE BE IT ENACTED by the Ziu and people of Talossa that Article II.3 of the Organic Law be changed from the current text:

QuoteThe King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

to

Quotea) The position of King of Talossa is currently vacant, until filled by an amendment to this section.

b) Until a King of Talossa is named in the manner described above, the Uppermost Cort shall act as a Council of Regency, and shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, or else may appoint a Regent to fulfill these functions. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent. The Ziu may by law remove or replace any appointed Regent, and if the Ziu removes a Regent appointed by the Uppermost Cort, the Uppermost Cort may not reappoint the same person Regent without the prior consent of the Ziu.


A NEW, NON-POLITICAL KING - AN ACTIVE GOVERNMENT - A DEMOCRATIC ORGLAW! Vote THE FREE DEMOCRATS OF TALOSSA
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"IS INACTIVITY BAD? I THINK NOT!" - Lord Hooligan

Miestră Schivă, UrN

Happy to consider other suggestions for the Regency btw, but this is the existing procedure (with a tweak or two) as stipulated in OrgLaw II.5. We could even have a "sunset clause" to make sure we do actually choose a King in a decent time frame.

I have no issue with either this or the Active Monarchy Assurance Amendment going through, but if they both got Clarked and both passed, we'd be in trouble :D I just have a feeling that this has a better chance.

A NEW, NON-POLITICAL KING - AN ACTIVE GOVERNMENT - A DEMOCRATIC ORGLAW! Vote THE FREE DEMOCRATS OF TALOSSA
¡LADINTSCHIÇETZ-VOI - rogetz-mhe cacsa!
"IS INACTIVITY BAD? I THINK NOT!" - Lord Hooligan

þerxh Sant-Enogat

#2
I am in favour of this Bill if the King does not want to resign. We keep our political institutions (do not shift to a tepid presidential royalty), and fix the current blocking issue. In France we say *Don't throw the baby out with the bath water*.
þerxh Sant-Enogat, SMC, MC
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Túischac'h dal 60:éă Cosă,
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Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

Since it is relatively easy to block amendments with a Ziu minority, this would almost certainly be the end of the monarchy.  Supporters of the proposed presidency could simply block all attempts to amend the OrgLaw with a new sovereign.
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan


Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Glüc da Dhi S.H.

I have no objections to removing King John (although considering the many things he has done for our nation,  the bill probably should make some sort of mention of that),

but I would never vote for a bill that removes the King without either naming a successor or establishing some sort of meaningful succession procedure.

Otherwise I'm not convinced we will ever have a King or Queen again. If that is the point of the bill then it should be stated as such. If not, then this is a bad idea.
Director of Money Laundering and Sportswashing, Banqeu da Cézembre

Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat

I agree that this less dramatic solution is much better.

With the concerns around this being a step towards losing the Monarchy altogether, I do think it needs some kind of "sunset clause" as Miestra suggested, to ensure the throne is filled in a timely manner and without the need for another amendment to the OrgLaw.
The Fulbright Fellow, Royal Talossan College of Arms
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#7
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on April 12, 2024, 08:38:09 AMI agree that this less dramatic solution is much better.

With the concerns around this being a step towards losing the Monarchy altogether, I do think it needs some kind of "sunset clause" as Miestra suggested, to ensure the throne is filled in a timely manner and without the need for another amendment to the OrgLaw.


Thanks Carlus.
@Miestră Schivă, UrN with the input from Carlus and Gluc I'm wondering if we should just add a successor to the referendum, if that is possible. Is there any Organic issue with adding Sir Txec as the successor pending confirmation by a referendum?

Of course, if that is not possible then there seems to be support for the sunset clause.

I would add that if we are able, in the amendment, to depose and replace John, then this does hopefully allow for much more time to address the succession issue AND install someone who will be an appropriately active king.

Miestră Schivă, UrN

#8
Well, okay, the alternative suggestion is:

QuoteTHEREFORE BE IT ENACTED by the Ziu and people of Talossa that Article II.3 of the Organic Law be changed from the current text:

QuoteThe King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

to

QuoteThe King of Talossa is Txec, First of his Name, of the House of Nordselvă, and his heirs and successors as established by law. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King:

a)  the Heir Presumptive to the throne as established by law shall assume the Throne or;
b)  if there is no Heir Presumptive and one is not named by law
, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency and shall within 3 months name an Heir Presumptive, who will take the Throne upon approval in referendum, or;
c)  if an Heir Presumptive as named in b) is not approved by a majority of those voting in referendum, and has not been named by law, the Uppermost Cort shall repeat the process in b) above as many times as is necessary.

Some might worry that establishing the succession by ordinary law will be too simple; but it will also prevent the kind of "stalemate" that the good Baron foresees whereby any successor can be blocked indefinitely by a minority.

A NEW, NON-POLITICAL KING - AN ACTIVE GOVERNMENT - A DEMOCRATIC ORGLAW! Vote THE FREE DEMOCRATS OF TALOSSA
¡LADINTSCHIÇETZ-VOI - rogetz-mhe cacsa!
"IS INACTIVITY BAD? I THINK NOT!" - Lord Hooligan

Ian Plätschisch

An alternative is specifying after the tribe is vacant for a year (or however long), a random citizen is selected to become King and can be ratified by a simple majority in a referendum

An intentionally undesirable outcome designed to ensure we get something better done.

Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

This is crazy -- if we know this is a problem we have to solve and we all want to solve it, why are we engineering deliberately terrible alternate outcomes?  Let's just do it now!

To draw a parallel: in the United States, there has been concern about the budget deficit.  It was arguably just used as a partisan club (austerity was a very stupid policy during a recession), but some people held the debt limit hostage as a result, regardless of their motivation.  If the deficit wasn't reduced, they said, they wouldn't authorize the issuance of more public debt.  Eventually, a bargain was struck for an automatic sequester: if the deficit weren't reduced over the next two years, then huge cuts would be automatically imposed.

See, making the actual decision about budget cuts was too hard.  Instead, they planned to make the alternative so horrible that they'd feel like they had to do it.  Not now... later.  Always later.

It didn't work, of course.  The hard choices remained hard, and people tried to just use the threat of sequestration on their opponents to get their way.  Automatic cuts were triggered, and they were stupid and wasteful.  The deficit remains huge.

I see this with students, too, sometimes.  They want to make themselves do something, but it's still too hard to actually address the problem.  So they try to just make the looming threat even worse so that their future selves will feel like they have to do something.

Let's just fix the problem, instead.
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan


Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

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Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 12, 2024, 05:49:53 PMWell, okay, the alternative suggestion is:

QuoteTHEREFORE BE IT ENACTED by the Ziu and people of Talossa that Article II.3 of the Organic Law be changed from the current text:

QuoteThe King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

to

QuoteThe King of Talossa is Txec, First of his Name, of the House of Nordselvă, and his heirs and successors as established by law. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King:

a)  the Heir Presumptive to the throne as established by law shall assume the Throne or;
b)  if there is no Heir Presumptive and one is not named by law
, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency and shall within 3 months name an Heir Presumptive, who will take the Throne upon approval in referendum, or;
c)  if an Heir Presumptive as named in b) is not approved by a majority of those voting in referendum, and has not been named by law, the Uppermost Cort shall repeat the process in b) above as many times as is necessary.

Some might worry that establishing the succession by ordinary law will be too simple; but it will also prevent the kind of "stalemate" that the good Baron foresees whereby any successor can be blocked indefinitely by a minority.

We have at least three TNC MCs and possibly a fourth in support of a simple vacancy declaration. The subsequent issue raised concerned a successor and earlier in this term there was no TNC opposition to Txec's elevation. I have yet to hear one voice in opposition even now.

Miestră Schivă, UrN

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 12, 2024, 07:35:50 PMWe have at least three TNC MCs and possibly a fourth in support of a simple vacancy declaration. The subsequent issue raised concerned a successor and earlier in this term there was no TNC opposition to Txec's elevation. I have yet to hear one voice in opposition even now.

The good Baron has been saying that he thinks the "simple vacancy declaration" is a trap, because the cunning Free Dems will then make sure the throne stays vacant forever, and the Senator from Cézembre agrees with him. This is both unkind and unnecessary, because the throne is already effectively vacant, if that's what we wanted we would just leave Zombie John there.

I was trying to dispel these suspicions, but I'm sure if your numbers are correct we *could* push a simple vacancy through over their objections - is that what you think best? I should note that Carlüs was asking for some kind of "sunset clause" to avoid eternal delays in naming a successor.

A NEW, NON-POLITICAL KING - AN ACTIVE GOVERNMENT - A DEMOCRATIC ORGLAW! Vote THE FREE DEMOCRATS OF TALOSSA
¡LADINTSCHIÇETZ-VOI - rogetz-mhe cacsa!
"IS INACTIVITY BAD? I THINK NOT!" - Lord Hooligan

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Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 12, 2024, 10:03:36 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 12, 2024, 07:35:50 PMWe have at least three TNC MCs and possibly a fourth in support of a simple vacancy declaration. The subsequent issue raised concerned a successor and earlier in this term there was no TNC opposition to Txec's elevation. I have yet to hear one voice in opposition even now.

The good Baron has been saying that he thinks the "simple vacancy declaration" is a trap, because the cunning Free Dems will then make sure the throne stays vacant forever, and the Senator from Cézembre agrees with him. This is both unkind and unnecessary, because the throne is already effectively vacant, if that's what we wanted we would just leave Zombie John there.

I was trying to dispel these suspicions, but I'm sure if your numbers are correct we *could* push a simple vacancy through over their objections - is that what you think best? I should note that Carlüs was asking for some kind of "sunset clause" to avoid eternal delays in naming a successor.


Miestra, I think two-thirds is a significant level of approval. 51-49 and yeah maybe you can be accused of pushing but 67-33 after repeated negotiated changes to address emergent concerns is not forcing at gunpoint here. Especially if an immediate replacement with a sunset clause for resolution of other issues seem to reduce the risk.

Glüc da Dhi S.H.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 12, 2024, 10:03:36 PMThe good Baron has been saying that he thinks the "simple vacancy declaration" is a trap, because the cunning Free Dems will then make sure the throne stays vacant forever, and the Senator from Cézembre agrees with him. This is both unkind and unnecessary, because the throne is already effectively vacant, if that's what we wanted we would just leave Zombie John there.


Just as a clarification. Im not saying this is your plan. If you say you intend to work towards finding a replacement I believe you. And I always believe you are acting in good faith.

However even then it's still perfectly possible for someone who didn't sponsor this bill and doesn't feel committed to any sort of compromise, to vote in favour of this plan, which would be in good faith, because they dont think King John should be King, and then also vote against any successor, which would also be in good faith, because they don't think anyone else should be King either.

It seems like a big risk. A sunset clause would solve that but I'm curious to see what that would look like. Ian's idea seems sensible enough.
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