Wittenberg

Whereas, it can be said that one objective in granting rights is to reduce suffering and enhance flourishing, so the use of sentience as the main characteristic may be more appropriate, and

Whereas, it was the trailblazing philosopher Jeremy Bentham who wrote in 1879, "The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?", and

Whereas, sentience is the characteristic of consciousness whereby an organism has a sufficient level of awareness to experience suffering, and

Whereas, sentience has been proven to be a characteristic not exclusive to homo sapiens sapiens, and

Whereas, it is therefore a fact that the restriction of the normative and legal discussion and codification of rights to humankind is an unacceptable case of anthropocentric speciesism.

Therefore, be it enacted that El Lex 5.3.13 which currently reads:

Quote10 December. Human Rights Day. A suggested method to celebrate Human Rights Day is reviewing Article XI of The Organic Law and/or the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Is amended to read as:

Quote10 December. Sentient Rights Day. A day to celebrate the dignity and honor the rights of all sentient beings.

Therefore, be it further enacted, that the Ziu of the Kingdom of Talossa, adds a new section to El Lex F as follows:

QuoteF. 43 The Kingdom of Talossa endorses the transition in both legal and moral considerations from a human rights regime to one that seeks the protection of the rights of all sentient beings.

Uréu q'estadra så
Breneir Tzaracomprada (Seneschal)

Question. Would this mean dolphins and great apes would qualify for Talossan citizenship?

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on July 08, 2023, 09:14:37 PMTherefore, be it further enacted, that the Ziu of the Kingdom of Talossa endorses the transition of consideration from a human rights regime to one that seeks the protection of the rights of all sentient beings.

Not saying I endorse the bill, but from a technical perspective, this part should be incorporated into el Lexhatx (not sure where) instead of being a standalone provision

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 09, 2023, 07:20:36 PMQuestion. Would this mean dolphins and great apes would qualify for Talossan citizenship?

I am honestly not sure. I think there is somewhere in Talossan law that pets of Talossans are "honorary citizens." If we could meaningfully communicate with dolphins and great apes so that they could directly participate in human society then I would support their right to citizenship.

I do support some form of personhood rights for dolphins, whales, great apes, etc.

Honestly, if this bill means what it says, it should provide a way to include non-human sentients in the Talossan community. Otherwise, it's what the Right calls "virtue signalling"

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 10, 2023, 07:10:10 PMHonestly, if this bill means what it says, it should provide a way to include non-human sentients in the Talossan community. Otherwise, it's what the Right calls "virtue signalling"

Thank you, I think that's a great idea. And I am open to suggested language achieving that end.

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on July 10, 2023, 07:34:07 PM

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 10, 2023, 07:10:10 PMHonestly, if this bill means what it says, it should provide a way to include non-human sentients in the Talossan community. Otherwise, it's what the Right calls "virtue signalling"

Thank you, I think that's a great idea. And I am open to suggested language achieving that end.

Unless you are suggesting that dolphins are more intelligent than 13-year—old humans I'm not sure this follows. Sentience alone should not qualify you for citizenship.

Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on July 10, 2023, 09:41:01 PM

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on July 10, 2023, 07:34:07 PM

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 10, 2023, 07:10:10 PMHonestly, if this bill means what it says, it should provide a way to include non-human sentients in the Talossan community. Otherwise, it's what the Right calls "virtue signalling"

Thank you, I think that's a great idea. And I am open to suggested language achieving that end.

Unless you are suggesting that dolphins are more intelligent than 13-year—old humans I'm not sure this follows. Sentience alone should not qualify you for citizenship.

Citizenship rights is not really the thrust of the bill but I'm fine with honorary status on an individual basis.

These are great contributions and I thank those who've weighed in.

I've been a vegetarian for many years on the basis of animal rights, and so I'm very much in support of this proposal.

I guess it's just because of my experience with American conservatives who complain about "virtue signaling," but I am completely fine with it.  No one should mistake it for action, but it's good to signal what virtues you hold.  It helps establish those virtues as a norm. I mean, there's a pride flag in my classroom to signal to students that they are valued and accepted for who they are.  Symbolism and signaling is important (again, as long as it's not a substitute for action when that time comes).

It is very clear that no dolphin or ape could be a Talossan citizen in any meaningful sense, but if that changes -- or some other strange or magical future unfolds with robots or aliens or whatever -- then we will have already laid out a course heading in the right direction.