Azul all,
The logic of my Prime Dictate to hold the Living Cosa for the November Clark in December (during a month of recess) went like this:
-Org.IV.11 states "The Cosa may set and hold Living Cosas (live parliamentary meetings) to coincide with a Clark as described by law." This seems to indicate that there is some legislative leeway as to what it means for a Living Cosa session to "coincide" with a Clark, and that it could include times outside of the traditional window for a Clark.
-Lex.H.20 seems to expand on this, saying "The Seneschál may, if events warrant, issue a PD authorizing a Living Cosâ in the following calendar month." Note that this provision does not state that the PD must authorize a Living Cosa for the following Clark.
-With regard to holding a Living Cosa during a month of recess, Org.IV.9 describes a month of recess as a month "in which no Clark is published." If we held the Living Cosa in December, there would still have been no Clark published in December, because it would have been published in November.
I realize there are a few issues with this reasoning, but I was hoping it was good enough that we could all agree to go with it. Apparently not. In the immortal words of Justice Lauriéir, "[P]ractice, in the Talossan context, is all too frequently defined by what one can get away with without triggering any objections." I did not get away with it.
I have no interest in litigating this, so I have withdrawn my Prime Dictate. Given the circumstances I believe it best not to have a Living Cosa this term. I have been reliably informed that, because the bill enabling the Living Cosa was a Sense of the Ziu, it is not technically binding.
There has been some grumbling that I did not start planning the Living Cosa soon enough. I thought it would be inappropriate to begin the process before the enabling legislation passed (on October 21st), although I now admit that wasn't a good idea.
I am very loathe to set the precedent that the Seneschal can simply ignore the direction of the Cosa to do a Living Cosa, and I am not sure that it's true that the ephemeral law passed to authorize the Living Cosa is not binding. It's true that el Lexhatx seems to imply that a bill can be nonbinding, and if it is, it must have a specific label in its title. But I don't think putting that label on something makes it automatically nonbinding, and I also note that the OrgLaw would overrule it anyway.
I'd suggest the best thing to do is to give official notice there will be a pro forma Living Cosa in which nothing will happen and during which it is recommended that no one be in attendance, and I will just open and close it without anything happening. We'll need to have a public link available for anyone to attend in theory, by law, since they need to have the opportunity to hypothetically cast a vote, but no one will be recognized and a quorum will not be present.
That sounds fine, just let me know when you would like me to say it is happening.
See below.
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on November 03, 2022, 08:16:20 PMI am very loathe to set the precedent that the Seneschal can simply ignore the direction of the Cosa to do a Living Cosa, and I am not sure that it's true that the ephemeral law passed to authorize the Living Cosa is not binding.
Of course it is. 57RZ21 is a Sense of the Cosa, just like all those non-binding Senses of the Ziu we've been voting on this term. Nowhere in the text of the bill (http://www.talossa.ca/files/bills.php?cosa=57&bill=21) does it say that it's legislation, and El Lexh H.20 mentions "a vote of the Cosa",
not a law endorsed by the Senäts and King. That's the A-Xh's formal opinion.
QuoteI'd suggest the best thing to do is to give official notice there will be a pro forma Living Cosa in which nothing will happen
My opinion as A-Xh is that this would be ridiculous and the Seneschál should not do this.
Given that I employ an A-Xh to advise me on these matters, and that she was the one who proposed the bill in question, I would be a fool not to heed her advice.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on November 03, 2022, 08:44:14 PMQuote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on November 03, 2022, 08:16:20 PMI am very loathe to set the precedent that the Seneschal can simply ignore the direction of the Cosa to do a Living Cosa, and I am not sure that it's true that the ephemeral law passed to authorize the Living Cosa is not binding.
Of course it is. 57RZ21 is a Sense of the Cosa, just like all those non-binding Senses of the Ziu we've been voting on this term. Nowhere in the text of the bill (http://www.talossa.ca/files/bills.php?cosa=57&bill=21) does it say that it's legislation, and El Lexh H.20 mentions "a vote of the Cosa", not a law endorsed by the Senäts and King. That's the A-Xh's formal opinion.
Org.IV.11 says that the Cosa may "set and hold Living Cosas." That is the clear delegation by the Organic Law of a specific power to the Cosa, and no statute can limit that power to require the Seneschal's approval or to say that it doesn't really count if the bill is named a certain way.
If the Cosa passes a bill saying that there should be a Living Cosa during a specific time, that is the exercising of that power. I don't think that it should just be ignored, and I think it would be a pretty horrible precedent to grant the Seneschal the right to ignore the overwhelming majority of the Cosa in this matter.
"may set and hold Living Cosas ... as described by law". The provisions of H.20 are the problem here - in particular the requirement for 2 weeks notice, which appear to have taken away all the actual dates on which the TNC might be available. There is a way around that, and it's called a PD, which is a pretty blunt instrument.
Funny thing about that "overwhelming majority" - there doesn't seem to be an actual majority of MCs who can make any date between November 17-21, which are the remaining dates avaiable to us. If we could still do it, I would advise the Seneschál to set a date post-haste; but from what I can tell the TNC are not able/willing to turn up on any of those dates and want it to be an empty farce, which I can't go along with.
I stand by my interpretation of the law.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on November 03, 2022, 10:42:58 PMFunny thing about that "overwhelming majority" - there doesn't seem to be an actual majority of MCs who can make any date between November 17-21, which are the remaining dates avaiable to us. If we could still do it, I would advise the Seneschál to set a date post-haste; but from what I can tell the TNC are not able/willing to turn up on any of those dates and want it to be an empty farce, which I can't go along with.
None of that has anything to do with the law.
Some of the TNC got a message asking us in the last week of October to start planning a big early November meeting. I tried really hard to help, offering a bunch of ideas, as I'm sure the Seneschal will tell you (which is probably why you're the one picking a political fight over this, and not him). It was a bad idea to wait until the last minute to plan this. You guys should have done a better job.
But I think turning this into a political fight is counterproductive and short-sighted, and so we should just move back to the actual topic. Okay?
I think the law is pretty clear that the Cosa has the power to set and conduct Living Cosas. No one else in the OrgLaw is granted that power, and there are no limits placed on it, except that all the MCs need to have a chance to vote remotely. It's not "legislation" that requires the Hopper, the Senats, or anything else. It's a power of the Cosa.
Secondly, el Lexhatx cannot overrule any part of the OrgLaw. Statutory law is invalid to the extent it attempts to countermand the constitution. So even if a law was passed saying that the Cosa couldn't set a Living Cosa in the winter, that wouldn't be valid and wouldn't actually bind the Cosa. The Cosa could still set a January Living Cosa if it wanted, no matter what a statute says.
So if the Cosa exercises its undisputed power to set a Cosa, it doesn't matter if there's a part of a stature that suggests that it's nonbinding. Statutes can't limit an Organic power like that. So we must consider that the Living Cosa has been set by the Cosa, since the Cosa voted in favor of setting a Living Cosa in very clear terms.
No one is suggesting that the Cosa didn't really mean to set a Living Cosa. No one is suggesting that the Cosa doesn't have the power to do that. And no one is suggesting that el Lexhatx can place restrictions on the powers of the Cosa. So it must be binding, and the Seneschal cannot simply ignore it because it's convenient.
It will take five minutes, it needn't be a big deal, and it will prevent us from setting a pretty bad precedent for the future.
Let me just tap the sign again:
Quote"may set and hold Living Cosas ... as described by law"
If the TNC are available for any date between November 17-21, then name that date and I will advise the Seneschal to call the LC for that date. Or, if the TNC are available for an earlier date and are amenable to a PD temporarily waiving parts of El Lex H.20, tell me that date and I will advise the Seneschal accordingly.
What I will not do is advise the Seneschal to set a date for a meeting to which the TNC have already said they won't turn up and which the Túischac'h will close down without allowing any participation. That is not "setting a Living Cosa".
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on November 03, 2022, 11:08:58 PMLet me just tap the sign again:
Quote"may set and hold Living Cosas ... as described by law"
But that brings us right back to the text of the statute which says "The Cosa may hold living Cosas during subsequent Clarks by a vote of the Cosa naming the specific month in which the event is to take place." And they did! There is no limitation there, and any limitation elsewhere on legislation isn't going to apply because the OrgLaw controls!
I'm honestly not even sure what point you're trying to make here -- maybe I am misunderstanding? What other specific limitations are placed by statute on the Living Cosa power that enable the Seneschal to simply ignore them?
A pro forma session is a common thing, incidentally, not a weird new invention.
What power does the Túischac'h to say that he's simply not going to allow any business at a Living Cosa?
Perhaps if the Túischac'h is not willing to hold a proper Living Cosa, because his own party is unavailable, he should appoint a temporary Deputy who is willing to do so with whomever turns up.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on November 03, 2022, 11:16:35 PMWhat power does the Túischac'h to say that he's simply not going to allow any business at a Living Cosa?
Perhaps if the Túischac'h is not willing to hold a proper Living Cosa, because his own party is unavailable, he should appoint a temporary Deputy who is willing to do so with whomever turns up.
The Túischac'h is specifically tasked to "preside, direct and maintain order during Living Cosas." That would include opening a Living Cosa, recognizing that no Cosa members are in attendance and there is no business to be conducted, and closing the session. The common rules of order would still prevail if a quorum of MCs present demanded a motion or whatnot, but presumably that won't happen, since we're doing this to be nice and stay above board with the law.
Here's a video of an example of a pro forma session from the United States Senate: https://www.c-span.org/video/?522242-1/senate-pro-forma-session
That's basically what I had in mind. It would be quick and easy, it would meet the needs of the law, and it would allow us to amicably (and in a timely fashion) plan for a real Living Cosa at the start of the next term.
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on November 03, 2022, 11:22:00 PMThe common rules of order would still prevail if a quorum of MCs present demanded a motion or whatnot,
Okay, that changes things a little. My advice to the Seneschál was there was no point setting a date for something that (substantively) wasn't going to happen. But if the issue is that a minority party (and the Túischac'h) don't want it to happen, but that
majority rules, then we're in a different landscape. I will discuss matters further inside Cabinet.
Meanwhile, if we are to talk about precedents, I certainly don't want to set a preference where one party and/or the Túischac'h can turn a Living Cosa into an empty nothing because it's not convenient to them. That really would be overriding the Cosa majority's rights under OrgLaw IV.11!
Look, you guys can schedule it when you want, obviously, and I'll try to be there if I can at all do so. I'm sure everyone else in the TNC will also try to be there. I think it would be preferable for the Government to wait so the most people can participate, but I have no control over the matter.
Making this successful has been my focus, and I have suggested a whole lot of solutions over the last week to that end: immediately doing a poll and getting a specific date and time; declaring a different month of recess; issuing a PD to suspend requirements for once; or using a pro forma session now and doing a real one next term.
The TNC is all about participation and activity and having fun. Those are our priorities. We'd like to attend a Living Cosa because it seems like it might be fun for a good number of folks. This doesn't need to be contentious -- it should all really be very low-stakes. Let's just plan something we can all attend.
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on November 04, 2022, 05:30:46 AMLook, you guys can schedule it when you want, obviously, and I'll try to be there if I can at all do so. I'm sure everyone else in the TNC will also try to be there. I think it would be preferable for the Government to wait so the most people can participate, but I have no control over the matter.
Making this successful has been my focus, and I have suggested a whole lot of solutions over the last week to that end: immediately doing a poll and getting a specific date and time; declaring a different month of recess; issuing a PD to suspend requirements for once; or using a pro forma session now and doing a real one next term.
The TNC is all about participation and activity and having fun. Those are our priorities. We'd like to attend a Living Cosa because it seems like it might be fun for a good number of folks. This doesn't need to be contentious -- it should all really be very low-stakes. Let's just plan something we can all attend.
If it is set for the 20th I will definitely be in attendance, any other date I will do my best but my job (in real world) makes other dates very difficult.
My brother is coming into town then, unfortunately, for Thanksgiving. The later we get in the month, the more it's touch-and-go for me.
The 20th would work for me too. But the Seneschál has to make the call within 48 hours to make that happen. If the Túischac'h can't make it, can he appoint a deputy?
I should reiterate that I totally agree that whatever happens this month, we should aim to have a Living Cosa / State Opening with the First Clark next year - but that'll be up to the incoming Seneschál and Túischac'h, whoever they are.
There's nothing in the OrgLaw about the power to designate a chair of my choice, but it's probably fine. I'll double-check the common rules of order.
I have declared a Living Cosa for the 20th.
The Senator from Benito previously volunteered to set things up technologically speaking, I've asked him to chime in ASAP.
We'll need an Acting Túischac'h if AD can't make it, and an agenda. And probably a quorum?
I will draw up an agenda, and if I cannot attend and if I can appoint a deputy, I will provide a brief summary of the rules of order that apply. Most of them will not apply anyway. The main practical effect of holding the event is going to be that the Clark is going to be a bit shorter, since the voting period will now end on the 20th, once the Living Cosa adjourns. There's no quorum requirement, since one has to be set by the Ziu.
Basically all that can happen, as far as I can tell, is that the Living Cosa starts, people can debate and vote as recognized by the chair, and then it adjourns. Nothing can be proposed, amended, postponed, sent to committee, or tabled. Very little real parliamentary procedure is permitted under the law.
Well, there are TERPs as well, as mandated by El Lex H.2. Although we should request that TERPs for the LC be submitted with at least a little bit of warning, so Government Ministers can prepare answers and not be surprised/having to make something up on the spot?
You're right, I forgot about those, thank you.
There is no legal way of which I know to require terps be disclosed ahead-of-time, and in fact they are very different from normal terps (as far as I can see). Living Cosa rules allow any MC to ask a question of any other MC, and that question must be answered. Breneir goes first, and then alternately between Government and opposition MCs. The whole thing is sort-of patterned after UK's parliamentary question time.
I will come up with some basic rules in practice for all of this, as best I can. I believe my rules that interpret how terps can work have been fair and clear, and I'll try to do the same here. I'll do it in advance of the Living Cosa to iron out any objections or things I didn't see, but a brief set of procedures for "open, debate and vote, ask questions alternately, and then adjourn" shouldn't be too hard.
The process for Parliamentary Question time in the UK, as in my country, is that Ministers are given written advance notice of questions (three days in the UK (https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/business/questions/)); but that "impromptu" supplementary questions can then be asked. There would be no point for the Opposition to ask a TERP which a Government minister could simply not answer because they didn't have the facts to hand.
We're flying by the seat of our pants here, and I think setting precedents for good future practice is important.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on November 05, 2022, 06:29:12 PMThe Senator from Benito previously volunteered to set things up technologically speaking, I've asked him to chime in ASAP.
We'll need an Acting Túischac'h if AD can't make it, and an agenda. And probably a quorum?
I am also available on 11/20, and can help to make this happen. I'll have to check as to whether I can hand over moderation/host powers to whomever will be chairing or not. If not, I guess I'll have to function as a sort of "sgt. at arms" under the direction of the chair as needed. Might be a "cohost" function.
As soon as a I get a contact list for the invite, I can set it up and send it out. Also a time. Sunday afternoons (US Eastern Time) are generally my best.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on November 06, 2022, 01:26:33 AMThe process for Parliamentary Question time in the UK, as in my country, is that Ministers are given written advance notice of questions (three days in the UK (https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/business/questions/)); but that "impromptu" supplementary questions can then be asked. There would be no point for the Opposition to ask a TERP which a Government minister could simply not answer because they didn't have the facts to hand.
We're flying by the seat of our pants here, and I think setting precedents for good future practice is important.
I am certainly not insensitive to that fact, but I just don't think it would be within the bounds of propriety of my granted powers to invent restrictions like that. However! Neither is it reasonable to try to demand that every government official have every fact on hand. I will be strongly suggesting that any terps which pose questions of fact of that nature should be provided beforehand or through the written process. "I don't have those numbers on hand" is a perfectly valid response, otherwise.
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on November 06, 2022, 11:06:29 AMI just don't think it would be within the bounds of propriety of my granted powers to invent restrictions like that.
By my interpretation, you certainly are: "preside, direct and maintain order during Living Cosas" (OrgLaw IV.12) means by my interpretation the power to set certain rules - with the proviso that the LC can override those rules by majority vote.
Quote from: Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu on November 06, 2022, 10:41:49 AMAs soon as a I get a contact list for the invite, I can set it up and send it out. Also a time. Sunday afternoons (US Eastern Time) are generally my best.
How should political parties get you a contact list? Email addresses? Witt PMs? Facebook?
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on November 06, 2022, 02:13:20 PMQuote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on November 06, 2022, 11:06:29 AMI just don't think it would be within the bounds of propriety of my granted powers to invent restrictions like that.
By my interpretation, you certainly are: "preside, direct and maintain order during Living Cosas" (OrgLaw IV.12) means by my interpretation the power to set certain rules - with the proviso that the LC can override those rules by majority vote.
I would think that my power to set such rules should probably be limited -- again with an eye to precedent. It's more dangerous to have a chair who can so utterly control debate as it would be to have debate get a little rangey. And again, I think it would probably be foolish to try to sandbag a minister at an LC, since they would then have the luxury of saying that they simply can't answer the question in that format.
Some polite general guidelines won't hurt: eg, "If you have any terpelaziuns planned which will depend on obscure points of law, statistics, or facts, then it is suggested that these be submitted in writing at least three days beforehand."
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on November 07, 2022, 03:41:14 PMQuote from: Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu on November 06, 2022, 10:41:49 AMAs soon as a I get a contact list for the invite, I can set it up and send it out. Also a time. Sunday afternoons (US Eastern Time) are generally my best.
How should political parties get you a contact list? Email addresses? Witt PMs? Facebook?
Email generally works best w/ Zoom invites.
Could we do a PM on here to all the MZs, the morning of the LC?
I've never done a Zoom meeting, is this something I need to set up an account for or just follow a link when I am invited?
Quote from: Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu on November 08, 2022, 06:18:21 PMQuote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on November 07, 2022, 03:41:14 PMQuote from: Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu on November 06, 2022, 10:41:49 AMAs soon as a I get a contact list for the invite, I can set it up and send it out. Also a time. Sunday afternoons (US Eastern Time) are generally my best.
How should political parties get you a contact list? Email addresses? Witt PMs? Facebook?
Email generally works best w/ Zoom invites.
I'll try to rustle up the FreeDems, but is this a situation where the SoS can release you the emails of all current MZs?
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on November 09, 2022, 02:06:29 PMQuote from: Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu on November 08, 2022, 06:18:21 PMQuote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on November 07, 2022, 03:41:14 PMQuote from: Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu on November 06, 2022, 10:41:49 AMAs soon as a I get a contact list for the invite, I can set it up and send it out. Also a time. Sunday afternoons (US Eastern Time) are generally my best.
How should political parties get you a contact list? Email addresses? Witt PMs? Facebook?
Email generally works best w/ Zoom invites.
I'll try to rustle up the FreeDems, but is this a situation where the SoS can release you the emails of all current MZs?
I don't think I can legally release email addresses to anyone unless it is a General Election, and then only to party leaders and even then only those allowed to be released by personal voter choice.
How long are you expecting that to take? Google Meet is free for up to 100 participants and for up to 60 minutes. It can be created instantaneously or scheduled.
If more than 60 minutes are required I can ask at work if usage would be permitted as per company policy, for unlimited time. That was the case during the pandemic.
Speaking of which, we met via Google Meet or Jitsi back then in "La Curantaina".
Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on November 09, 2022, 08:20:16 AMI've never done a Zoom meeting, is this something I need to set up an account for or just follow a link when I am invited?
You do not need to set anything up ahead of time
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on November 09, 2022, 07:48:38 AMCould we do a PM on here to all the MZs, the morning of the LC?
I can do that too.
Quote from: Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu on November 11, 2022, 08:41:57 AMQuote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on November 09, 2022, 07:48:38 AMCould we do a PM on here to all the MZs, the morning of the LC?
I can do that too.
@Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu if you could please PM the Zoom link. Alternatively, a PM to all MZs the morning of the LC would be prudent.
I note that no TERPs have been foreshadowed. If the Opposition have any TERPs for which they actually want an answer - as opposed to just wanting have fun watching Cabinet ministers floundering - can I please suggest that they provide notice of these questions?
I also give notice that I'm very ill and getting up at 6 am MAY be beyond me. But we shall all see.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on November 19, 2022, 09:13:32 PMI note that no TERPs have been foreshadowed. If the Opposition have any TERPs for which they actually want an answer - as opposed to just wanting have fun watching Cabinet ministers floundering - can I please suggest that they provide notice of these questions?
I also give notice that I'm very ill and getting up at 6 am MAY be beyond me. But we shall all see.
No terps incoming from me. Also, get well soon Miestra.
Thank you. It's just a bad cold combined with overwork.