Hey everyone don't forget to vote in the ongoing elections! If you are a citizen of Vuode please consider voting for Tric'hard Lenxheir for Senate! I support the TNC (for the most part) but with that being said I do support some sort of monarchy reform as a way of keeping our King more active in the countries affairs. No matter how you vote it is important that you take the time to vote!!! Good luck to all of the candidates and parties involved and here is to a peaceful, harmonious and enjoyable 58th Cosa!
Yes, hello. Not a Vuode citizen, but curious: have you got any ideas for "keeping the King more active"? Because we've been trying for at least 7 years, and nothing works, up to and including threats of revolution.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on January 17, 2023, 02:12:21 PMYes, hello. Not a Vuode citizen, but curious: have you got any ideas for "keeping the King more active"? Because we've been trying for at least 7 years, and nothing works, up to and including threats of revolution.
I have discussed the issue within the party even suggesting that some sort of regularly scheduled vote be taken, sort of a "vote of confidence" I think the biggest issue comes down to how often such a vote should happen.
Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 17, 2023, 02:32:55 PMI have discussed the issue within the party even suggesting that some sort of regularly scheduled vote be taken, sort of a "vote of confidence" I think the biggest issue comes down to how often such a vote should happen.
The Free Democrat proposal was 7 years, which the current TNC leadership did everything they could to defeat. I wonder what your personal position is.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on January 17, 2023, 02:37:30 PMQuote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 17, 2023, 02:32:55 PMI have discussed the issue within the party even suggesting that some sort of regularly scheduled vote be taken, sort of a "vote of confidence" I think the biggest issue comes down to how often such a vote should happen.
The Free Democrat proposal was 7 years, which the current TNC leadership did everything they could to defeat. I wonder what your personal position is.
I favor 7-10 years but in truth I doubt that something like this would ever get passed my parties leadership. I do support the monarchy, it is one of the reasons I joined the "Kingdom" of Talossa. If I did not favor the monarchy I likely would have searched for a micronation that was not a kingdom.
Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 17, 2023, 08:51:09 PMQuote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on January 17, 2023, 02:37:30 PMQuote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 17, 2023, 02:32:55 PMI have discussed the issue within the party even suggesting that some sort of regularly scheduled vote be taken, sort of a "vote of confidence" I think the biggest issue comes down to how often such a vote should happen.
The Free Democrat proposal was 7 years, which the current TNC leadership did everything they could to defeat. I wonder what your personal position is.
I favor 7-10 years but in truth I doubt that something like this would ever get passed my parties leadership. I do support the monarchy, it is one of the reasons I joined the "Kingdom" of Talossa. If I did not favor the monarchy I likely would have searched for a micronation that was not a kingdom.
How would you vote if this question came up?
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on January 17, 2023, 08:55:58 PMQuote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 17, 2023, 08:51:09 PMQuote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on January 17, 2023, 02:37:30 PMQuote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 17, 2023, 02:32:55 PMI have discussed the issue within the party even suggesting that some sort of regularly scheduled vote be taken, sort of a "vote of confidence" I think the biggest issue comes down to how often such a vote should happen.
The Free Democrat proposal was 7 years, which the current TNC leadership did everything they could to defeat. I wonder what your personal position is.
I favor 7-10 years but in truth I doubt that something like this would ever get passed my parties leadership. I do support the monarchy, it is one of the reasons I joined the "Kingdom" of Talossa. If I did not favor the monarchy I likely would have searched for a micronation that was not a kingdom.
How would you vote if this question came up?
I have gone as far as suggesting it during private discussions within the party, I have suggested a compromise on the length of time between such votes, I recommended to my party that we should make an effort to suggest a 10 year period. I will say that the party is pretty adamantly opposed to such a referendum which while I disagree, I understand their position. They strongly support the monarchy, as do I, but I also think the King should be among the most active citizens.
Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 17, 2023, 09:31:29 PMI have gone as far as suggesting it during private discussions within the party, I have suggested a compromise on the length of time between such votes, I recommended to my party that we should make an effort to suggest a 10 year period. I will say that the party is pretty adamantly opposed to such a referendum which while I disagree, I understand their position. They strongly support the monarchy, as do I, but I also think the King should be among the most active citizens.
It sounds like we agree on this issue much more than we disagree.
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on January 17, 2023, 09:40:11 PMQuote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 17, 2023, 09:31:29 PMI have gone as far as suggesting it during private discussions within the party, I have suggested a compromise on the length of time between such votes, I recommended to my party that we should make an effort to suggest a 10 year period. I will say that the party is pretty adamantly opposed to such a referendum which while I disagree, I understand their position. They strongly support the monarchy, as do I, but I also think the King should be among the most active citizens.
It sounds like we agree on this issue much more than we disagree.
Yes and no, the FreeDems would like to see the monarchy completely removed, I would just prefer to see a more active King. I have not been around to see the full history of Talossa but I do know that it is called the "Kingdom" of Talossa which leaves me wondering why people who are completely opposed to the monarchy would choose to join in the first place. I also realize that losing some of the FreeDems would be a bad thing as there are some good people among the parties ranks who would choose to debate the issue and perhaps to try and force some sort of change through legislation but unfortunately there are some on both sides who quite easily fall into the trap of name calling, insults and mudslinging. These kinds of actions generally will not lead to any sort of agreement. I actually almost left Talossa after my first few months because of the bickering I was witnessing, I found it very distressing and much to close to the political atmosphere in the United States. Talossa should be an exercise in proper debate, without the insults, it should be a fun place, a place people want to visit daily to see what is going on, a place where people who may be highly intelligent and would make fantastic leaders in the outside world can practice their skills without having to worry about the financial aspects of politics in the larger world. I am not the most intelligent person in the world...not even close...but I am capable of sitting back and viewing both sides of a debate and making an informed decision. I can be a bit emotional (as evidenced by my bill attempting to declare war on Russia LOL) but it takes a lot to get me angry, and even more to make me lash out at someone.
Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 17, 2023, 09:54:40 PMTalossa should be an exercise in proper debate, without the insults, it should be a fun place, a place people want to visit daily to see what is going on, a place where people who may be highly intelligent and would make fantastic leaders in the outside world can practice their skills without having to worry about the financial aspects of politics in the larger world. I am not the most intelligent person in the world...not even close...but I am capable of sitting back and viewing both sides of a debate and making an informed decision. I can be a bit emotional (as evidenced by my bill attempting to declare war on Russia LOL) but it takes a lot to get me angry, and even more to make me lash out at someone.
Hear hear!
Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 17, 2023, 09:54:40 PMthe FreeDems would like to see the monarchy completely removed
That's not true at all. The Free Democrats want
this King removed, but replaced. Did someone tell you that we want to abolish the monarchy? Some of us do; it's not party policy. We have always been a party of compromise between Monarchists and Republicans - although of course every compromise we offer gets rejected as "unacceptable republicanism" by our opponents.
Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 17, 2023, 09:54:40 PMI do know that it is called the "Kingdom" of Talossa which leaves me wondering why people who are completely opposed to the monarchy would choose to join in the first place.
QuoteThese kinds of actions generally will not lead to any sort of agreement.
No offence, you seem like a straight-up guy. But you know what else will not lead to any sort of agreement? Suggesting that people with certain political beliefs do not belong in Talossa. Sadly, I've been hearing that said since Reunision, which brought Republican and Monarchist Talossa together. I was the Republican leader who made that happen on our side, I spent 3 terms as Kingdom Seneschal working with King John (which is what qualifies me to say that he's not qualified for the job any more). I have been involved in Talossa for more than
25 years. To still hear a political opinion that people like me don't belong here makes me feel ill.
Again, no offence, but I thought you would appreciate honesty about hurt feelings.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on January 17, 2023, 10:55:35 PMQuote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 17, 2023, 09:54:40 PMthe FreeDems would like to see the monarchy completely removed
That's not true at all. The Free Democrats want this King removed, but replaced. Did someone tell you that we want to abolish the monarchy? Some of us do; it's not party policy. We have always been a party of compromise between Monarchists and Republicans - although of course every compromise we offer gets rejected as "unacceptable republicanism" by our opponents.
My thoughts are based upon the posts of the most active party members from the FreeDems
Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 18, 2023, 12:56:41 PMQuote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on January 17, 2023, 10:55:35 PMQuote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 17, 2023, 09:54:40 PMthe FreeDems would like to see the monarchy completely removed
That's not true at all. The Free Democrats want this King removed, but replaced. Did someone tell you that we want to abolish the monarchy? Some of us do; it's not party policy. We have always been a party of compromise between Monarchists and Republicans - although of course every compromise we offer gets rejected as "unacceptable republicanism" by our opponents.
My thoughts are based upon the posts of the most active party members from the FreeDems
🤔
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on January 18, 2023, 01:21:02 PMQuote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 18, 2023, 12:56:41 PMQuote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on January 17, 2023, 10:55:35 PMQuote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 17, 2023, 09:54:40 PMthe FreeDems would like to see the monarchy completely removed
That's not true at all. The Free Democrats want this King removed, but replaced. Did someone tell you that we want to abolish the monarchy? Some of us do; it's not party policy. We have always been a party of compromise between Monarchists and Republicans - although of course every compromise we offer gets rejected as "unacceptable republicanism" by our opponents.
My thoughts are based upon the posts of the most active party members from the FreeDems
🤔
Simply put Ian, some of the FreeDems are blatantly and openly opposed to the monarchy, many it seems are opposed to it in any manner while some seem as if they would support it but ONLY if it was a King (or Queen) who supported their personal views. That is not how a monarchy works. Obviously there are mechanisms in place to remove royalty in the Talossan law, it is difficult (as it should be) but with that being said I would support a change to the laws requiring the King to face the vote of the people every 10 years, I think removal should only happen based upon a multi-tier vote that requires AT LEAST 75% of the people, 75% of the Cosa and 75% of the Senate. This would be difficult to achieve and it should be difficult. The United States has a system called impeachment and in all honesty I think that system is too easy. While removal isn't easy the actual impeachment is extremely easy and is used way too much these days (since Bill Clinton) as a way of attacking the duly elected leader(s) in an overtly political way. I do not want to see Talossa slide into the same trap. If removal was easy the FreeDems could (and likely would) install a king that backs them completely, the same is true if the roles were reversed, and the TNC took control of the elected government they could (and probably would) install a king that supports them. While I agree that the King should be apolitical that is not realistic. Everyone has personal opinions and views and any king would be driven to impose their opinions and views on the nation. The king would likely believe that the views he imposed were for the good of the nation, the opposition would disagree obviously. I am not a scholar on Talossan law (I'm not a scholar on anything LOL) but I must assume that there is some sort of mechanism in place wherein the Cosa, Senate or Cort could override the kings imposition of a law if it is deemed to be destructive or unconstitutional but perhaps I am wrong on that. I must say that I have enjoyed this conversation as it has remained very cordial and civil. Thank you for that.
Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 18, 2023, 01:50:59 PMsome of the FreeDems are blatantly and openly opposed to the monarchy, many it seems are opposed to it in any manner while some seem as if they would support it but ONLY if it was a King (or Queen) who supported their personal views.
I don't think that's right at all. Some FreeDems are republicans like me - I am a consistent anti-monarchist, I would not support
myself as Queen. Other FreeDems want a British-style monarchy, where the King never uses his legislative veto. Still others are happy with the current monarchy, but not the current monarch - mainly because of his inactivity, but also because he's inappropriately close to the TNC leadership.
QuoteI think removal should only happen based upon a multi-tier vote that requires AT LEAST 75% of the people, 75% of the Cosa and 75% of the Senate. This would be difficult to achieve and it should be difficult.
But do you see the logical flaw here? That is a higher bar than amending the OrgLaw, even against the King's veto. So you could simply amend the OrgLaw (with 75% of the Cosa, an absolute majority of the Senäts and a majority in referendum) to say "the Throne is vacant" or "someone else is now King" and not have to do all that. BTW, there is a current "impeachment" procedure for the King - OrgLaw II.4 - and the reason I have given is why it is useless.
Quoteif the roles were reversed, and the TNC took control of the elected government they could (and probably would) install a king that supports them. While I agree that the King should be apolitical that is not realistic.
The King should
at least be as non-political as the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State, although he is a member (and a former leader) of a party, goes out of his way to be politically neutral in his duties. The King should
at least do the same. As well as, well,
actually doing his duties.
As Senator Plätschisch previously said: if the TNC are really going to argue that the current (barely existent) level of the King's activity is fine, then they really don't think the King is important. The office
might as well be empty (yes, you can have a Kingdom without a king (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Hungary_(1920%E2%80%931946)) and IMHO that would be a much preferable situation to what we have now).
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on January 18, 2023, 02:05:06 PMQuote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 18, 2023, 01:50:59 PMsome of the FreeDems are blatantly and openly opposed to the monarchy, many it seems are opposed to it in any manner while some seem as if they would support it but ONLY if it was a King (or Queen) who supported their personal views.
I don't think that's right at all. Some FreeDems are republicans like me - I am a consistent anti-monarchist, I would not support myself as Queen. Other FreeDems want a British-style monarchy, where the King never uses his legislative veto. Still others are happy with the current monarchy, but not the current monarch - mainly because of his inactivity, but also because he's inappropriately close to the TNC leadership.
QuoteI think removal should only happen based upon a multi-tier vote that requires AT LEAST 75% of the people, 75% of the Cosa and 75% of the Senate. This would be difficult to achieve and it should be difficult.
But do you see the logical flaw here? That is a higher bar than amending the OrgLaw, even against the King's veto. So you could simply amend the OrgLaw (with 75% of the Cosa, an absolute majority of the Senäts and a majority in referendum) to say "the Throne is vacant" or "someone else is now King" and not have to do all that. BTW, there is a current "impeachment" procedure for the King - OrgLaw II.4 - and the reason I have given is why it is useless.
Quoteif the roles were reversed, and the TNC took control of the elected government they could (and probably would) install a king that supports them. While I agree that the King should be apolitical that is not realistic.
The King should at least be as non-political as the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State, although he is a member (and a former leader) of a party, goes out of his way to be politically neutral in his duties. The King should at least do the same. As well as, well, actually doing his duties.
As Senator Plätschisch previously said: if the TNC are really going to argue that the current (barely existent) level of the King's activity is fine, then they really don't think the King is important. The office might as well be empty (yes, you can have a Kingdom without a king (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Hungary_(1920%E2%80%931946)) and IMHO that would be a much preferable situation to what we have now).
Well then that leads to a simple question...what level of activity would you consider acceptable? and another question would be If the king does or says something within the law and within his power that you disagree with would you automatically start calling for his removal?
Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 18, 2023, 02:51:26 PMwhat level of activity would you consider acceptable?
Emphasising that this is
my personal view only, not a FreeDem platform: my feeling is that the monarchy's main role - if it exists at all - should be
cultural. When people say they like the monarchy, I honestly don't think they mean "an unelected person telling me what to do" (unless they're kinky that way, lol); they mean the pomp, the ceremony, the quirkiness, the fanciness. You get me?
Therefore, I think at a minimum, the King has to be
one of the most active people in the country, culturally speaking. I would say, at minimum: actively involved in the language; in the College of Arms; in the "Royal Society" (our university); in literature, artwork etc etc. Also, they should act as a promoter of Talossan culture outside Talossa (as the President of Molossia does for his country (https://www.insider.com/photos-meet-dictator-kevin-baugh-micronation-republic-molossia-nevada-2022-10)). King Robert I was a bully and a dictator, but he lived and breathed Talossan culture and quirkiness. I believe he "deserved to be King" in the way that no-one else ever has, but his nasty behaviour and attacks on democracy made that impossible.
I think there has to be a social contract -
in return for the deference, the bowing and scraping, the "Your majesty" stuff, the King has to
actively build and promote Talossan culture. I should point out that that's also what I would want an elected Head of State to do. What really gets me is that John is
capable of doing all of that. He was once one of the main users and promoters of the Talossan language. It is my honest belief that he's been sulking since his political powers started to be challenged, and that that's unbecoming of his role.
QuoteIf the king does or says something within the law and within his power that you disagree with would you automatically start calling for his removal?
If you're talking to me? I'm a Republican, I want no King at all, I'm the wrong person to ask. But the Free Democrats as a party have only
this election moved to saying THE KING MUST GO, after 7 years of inactivity, sulking, and clear partisan bias. You must understand why many FreeDem leaders used to be staunch monarchists. They changed their minds when the King started behaving badly and refused to change.
In European monarchies, the King or Queen has many powers on paper which they simply do not use, because they do not want to start a fight with the democratically elected governments. King Charles III, or as I affectionately call him "Big Ears", has a legislative veto, and if he ever uses it there'll be bloody revolution. So I would say that it's not unreasonable to expect the King never do certain things that he is legally/constitutionally able to do - for the sake of social peace. In Talossa, while I would prefer the King to have no legislative veto, I would accept that he not use it without warning the elected Government / Ziu majority first and trying to reach a compromise.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on January 18, 2023, 03:27:22 PMQuote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 18, 2023, 02:51:26 PMwhat level of activity would you consider acceptable?
Emphasising that this is my personal view only, not a FreeDem platform: my feeling is that the monarchy's main role - if it exists at all - should be cultural. When people say they like the monarchy, I honestly don't think they mean "an unelected person telling me what to do" (unless they're kinky that way, lol); they mean the pomp, the ceremony, the quirkiness, the fanciness. You get me?
Therefore, I think at a minimum, the King has to be one of the most active people in the country, culturally speaking. I would say, at minimum: actively involved in the language; in the College of Arms; in the "Royal Society" (our university); in literature, artwork etc etc. Also, they should act as a promoter of Talossan culture outside Talossa (as the President of Molossia does for his country (https://www.insider.com/photos-meet-dictator-kevin-baugh-micronation-republic-molossia-nevada-2022-10)). King Robert I was a bully and a dictator, but he lived and breathed Talossan culture and quirkiness. I believe he "deserved to be King" in the way that no-one else ever has, but his nasty behaviour and attacks on democracy made that impossible.
I think there has to be a social contract - in return for the deference, the bowing and scraping, the "Your majesty" stuff, the King has to actively build and promote Talossan culture. I should point out that that's also what I would want an elected Head of State to do. What really gets me is that John is capable of doing all of that. He was once one of the main users and promoters of the Talossan language. It is my honest belief that he's been sulking since his political powers started to be challenged, and that that's unbecoming of his role.
QuoteIf the king does or says something within the law and within his power that you disagree with would you automatically start calling for his removal?
If you're talking to me? I'm a Republican, I want no King at all, I'm the wrong person to ask. But the Free Democrats as a party have only this election moved to saying THE KING MUST GO, after 7 years of inactivity, sulking, and clear partisan bias. You must understand why many FreeDem leaders used to be staunch monarchists. They changed their minds when the King started behaving badly and refused to change.
In European monarchies, the King or Queen has many powers on paper which they simply do not use, because they do not want to start a fight with the democratically elected governments. King Charles III, or as I affectionately call him "Big Ears", has a legislative veto, and if he ever uses it there'll be bloody revolution. So I would say that it's not unreasonable to expect the King never do certain things that he is legally/constitutionally able to do - for the sake of social peace. In Talossa, while I would prefer the King to have no legislative veto, I would accept that he not use it without warning the elected Government / Ziu majority first and trying to reach a compromise.
Another reason I would never push to be any sort of leader above this level...the Talossan language intimidates the hell out of me...but then my first language intimidates me at times LOL
So I think what truly needs to happen is a discussion involving all concerned parties, all of the political parties and the King to put forth ideas on how the King can be more active, perhaps come to some agreement on just how active he should be, I mean it's confusing to say "we want you to be more active" and then say "don't do this, this, this or that". Perhaps I can take this idea to the leadership of my party and they can approach the King and maybe some sort of civil discussion can be had to make it clear to all concerned what is expected. I think it would also be nice to hear from the King as to why he is not more active. Perhaps personal life issues have strained his time, perhaps he is becoming less enamored with Talossa for various reasons, maybe he just doesn't find it as enjoyable as he once did due to some of the bickering that I witnessed when I first became a citizen (I almost left after my first month), maybe he sees that the general activity level on Witt is not very high, seems to be about a half a dozen active members to me.
Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 18, 2023, 06:19:23 PMthe Talossan language intimidates the hell out of me
Hey, it's not
so bad... it's the main reason I joined, at least.
Tafi, would you be willing to help on a fast phrases sheet with me? I've been trying to drop in "C'e ______" where I remember, but I bet there are similar other sorts of stuff that would help make the language more immediately legible and less intimidating to folks. We could do either like a single phrase-sheet, or a more involved "phrase of the week" sort of thing, where we successively introduce little useful bits.
Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on January 18, 2023, 06:55:47 PMQuote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on January 18, 2023, 06:19:23 PMthe Talossan language intimidates the hell out of me
Hey, it's not so bad... it's the main reason I joined, at least.
I think it is all of the letters that don't exist on my keyboard that throw me off, I have no idea how to pronounce most of them
could not talossa have some kind of royal non-human manifestation, which would be a titular head of state, sacred symbol, spiritual leader, popular figure, and attractive force? i would recommend a cat. it's already worked once, to quote the classics (cimrman, svěrák & smoljak - play czech heaven [české nebe]). so many problems would it solve, so much of a cuteness would it bring 8)
(https://cdn2.yellowtipi.eu/image/djpg/43123/43123.1/400/400/Koberec-Cat-King-160x230cm.jpg)
Quote from: Ián S.G. Txaglh on January 19, 2023, 05:08:53 AMcould not talossa have some kind of royal non-human manifestation, which would be a titular head of state, sacred symbol, spiritual leader, popular figure, and attractive force? i would recommend a cat. it's already worked once, to quote the classics (cimrman, svěrák & smoljak - play czech heaven [české nebe]). so many problems would it solve, so much of a cuteness would it bring 8)
An interesting idea! However the problem is that, sure the "King" may be more active, but the activity will be something along the lines of:
sfk;lghjsdfglheriughsdlfkjhglskhslurhglk gk jlkg hsurhgr gslughr;ggn;fdkhgbd jgrbsrgz;gb za gnba;ehjrt
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on January 19, 2023, 08:45:52 AMsfk;lghjsdfglheriughsdlfkjhglskhslurhglk gk jlkg hsurhgr gslughr;ggn;fdkhgbd jgrbsrgz;gb za gnba;ehjrt
new talossan language!
jgyths goms wbrt l p=xmwno úskjwqnx jszmd
(that wrote our zaerti, nice, mad, six-year-old tortoiseshell cat, whom i would gladly propose as a new talossan princess. she then crawled into my desk paper drawer to worship the feline corner god by tearing down some scrap papers there)
Quote from: Ián S.G. Txaglh on January 19, 2023, 02:48:24 PMjgyths goms wbrt l p=xmwno úskjwqnx jszmd
loijftfrdewsa
(Så bel!)
Quote from: Bråneu Excelsio on January 19, 2023, 03:21:26 PMQuote from: Ián S.G. Txaglh on January 19, 2023, 02:48:24 PMjgyths goms wbrt l p=xmwno úskjwqnx jszmd
loijftfrdewsa
(Så bel!)
Looks like goddamn Lojban (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban) to me :D
Great thread.