@GV , I'm not sure it's appropriate to keep advertising your party so heavily to prospective immigrants. You've spammed the same message to twenty-three different immigration threads, and we have a really longstanding prohibition against turning the immigration process into an exercise in partisan recruiting. I understand that it's not quite spam because you add in a phrase or sentence each time, and that broosking is only unethical and not actually illegal, but is this really the direction we want the country to go?
Considering that the TNC have been monopolising recruitment of new citizens right out of the pipeline for most of the last year, I doubt they have a right to complain about the Free Democrats* attempting to redress the balance. In fact, we might consider that doing so openly is more honest and democratic than doing so via private message, where Allà knows what new recruits to the ruling party are being told.
But in any case GV is only providing information, rather than doing a "sales pitch".
(* GV is acting at his own initiative, this is not an "official" FreeDems venture)
As Immigration minister I would respectfully ask
@GV to refrain from broosking. While not illegal it is a well-known and usually uncontroversially observed norm to prevent the politicisation of the immigration process itself.
For our many prospective immigrants, broosking is a term for partisan political activity concerning applicant Talossan citizens.
The prohibition against "broosking" is supposed to lead to healthy competition on a fair basis for the political allegiance of new citizens. But if - after no public "broosking" has occurred - every single new citizen who joins a new party joins the current ruling party, the TNC - what are we to think is going on? The Free Democrats are increasingly of the opinion that the immigration process has already been politicised, sub rosa, and it needs public correction.
Of course, I'm sure the current Government thinks it's healthy for democracy that all new citizens should join their party alone. The old RUMP, and King Robert's PC, thought the same.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on June 06, 2023, 04:37:00 PMThe prohibition against "broosking" is supposed to lead to healthy competition on a fair basis for the political allegiance of new citizens. But if - after no public "broosking" has occurred - every single new citizen who joins a new party joins the current ruling party, the TNC - what are we to think is going on? The Free Democrats are increasingly of the opinion that the immigration process has already been politicised, sub rosa, and it needs public correction.
Of course, I'm sure the current Government thinks it's healthy for democracy that all new citizens should join their party alone. The old RUMP, and King Robert's PC, thought the same.
I am not aware of any broosking or politicisation of the process by the TNC but we do now have voluminous evidence of it from a FreeDem senator. Again, one is speculation. The other is in text throughout these threads. If you have evidence to support the claim of TNC broosking or other politicisation then please bring it forward and I will act on it. Until then, I call out the clear and present partisan politcisation which is being propagated by a FreeDem senator.
I say this with respect for GV. Please stop.
@Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB Mr. Secretary, would you be able and willing to move the posts coming after GV's post to a new thread here within the Immigration area?
I wanted to separate this discussion from the specific immigrant's application. And also to act with an abundance of caution considering my history with Witt editing attempts..
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on June 06, 2023, 04:23:53 PMConsidering that the TNC have been monopolising recruitment of new citizens right out of the pipeline for most of the last year, I doubt they have a right to complain about the Free Democrats* attempting to redress the balance. In fact, we might consider that doing so openly is more honest and democratic than doing so via private message, where Allà knows what new recruits to the ruling party are being told.
It's a really bad idea for political parties to begin recruiting prospective immigrants, since it will politicize the process in a way that can't possibly be good for the country. If political parties start hectoring potential citizens before they even immigrate, then it's going to lead to really obvious bad outcomes. We've managed to avoid this for the most part for many many years, completely voluntarily, because as a community we've agreed not to turn the citizenship process into a partisan contest.
You guys are indeed doing this publicly, and I guess that's better than doing it privately, but it's still a really bad idea for the country. It could start a race to the bottom that would hurt our whole civic life Even if your party has been having trouble lately, this "unofficial" (winkwink) new approach is not the solution.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on June 06, 2023, 04:23:53 PMBut in any case GV is only providing information, rather than doing a "sales pitch".
"Vote Free Democrats of Talossa (FREEDEMS). We speak truth to power, and when we are back in power, we listen to truth from others."
This topic was split off from the prospective immigrant's thread and moved to Wittenberg as it is a more appropriate location. Everyone please try not to hijack threads (unintentional or not).
- Sir Txec
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on June 06, 2023, 04:23:53 PMConsidering that the TNC have been monopolising recruitment of new citizens right out of the pipeline for most of the last year, I doubt they have a right to complain about the Free Democrats* attempting to redress the balance. In fact, we might consider that doing so openly is more honest and democratic than doing so via private message, where Allà knows what new recruits to the ruling party are being told.
But in any case GV is only providing information, rather than doing a "sales pitch".
(* GV is acting at his own initiative, this is not an "official" FreeDems venture)
First, I think it is strange that you,
@Miestră Schivă, UrN are speaking on behalf on
@GV when this supposedly has nothing to do with you. You have quite a few talking points lined up for something that is not an "official" FreeDems venture. Where is GV to explain his own actions?
Second and more importantly, as one of the new citizens that you are referring to, who immigrated within the last year, I can say that not once did
@Breneir Tzaracomprada or any other member of the TNC approach me to join the TNC before I was a citizen. In fact, when I questioned him about TNC's platform, he refused to discuss it until I had fully immigrated!
On top of all that, I didn't even join the TNC fresh out of immigration, I joined in December of last year. A full
9 months after I immigrated because I wasn't sure I wanted to get involved in the political system at all. What was the reason for the reticence? All of the vitriol I saw spewed by members of the FreeDems! These current antics of flooding terps and spamming immigration threads only furthers my point. You can't even comprehend that someone else is doing well without resorting to cheating, and it's sad.
I ultimately joined the TNC because I saw that it was a force of good and charity in Talossa and I wanted to support its mission and promote its positive outlook for a better, friendlier nation.
In case you were looking for the "secret sauce", FreeDems, there's the recipe. If that seems too incomprehensible or puerile to you, perhaps you just need to take a long look in the mirror.
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on June 06, 2023, 06:33:37 PMWhat was the reason for the reticence? All of the vitriol I saw spewed by members of the FreeDems!
Will Carlüs give three examples of FreeDem "vitriol", please?
QuoteThese current antics of flooding terps
Will Carlüs explains why he thinks the number of Terpelaziuns presented by the current opposition is improper, please?
QuoteYou have quite a few talking points lined up for something that is not an "official" FreeDems venture. Where is GV to explain his own actions?
I can understand that a TNC member might have trouble believing that not everything that members of other parties do is a planned "operation" by the leadership. But GV has limited time for Talossa these days and maybe hasn't even seen how his attempts to advertise have "touched a nerve" with the TNC.
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on June 06, 2023, 06:33:37 PMQuote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on June 06, 2023, 04:23:53 PMAll of the vitriol I saw spewed by members of the FreeDems! These current antics of flooding terps and spamming immigration threads only furthers my point. You can't even comprehend that someone else is doing well without resorting to cheating, and it's sad.
To set the record straight sir, asking terps is most definitely not cheating. It is a hallmark of opposition government in our kingdom.
To be fair to Carlüs, I think you've parsed his sentence wrong - he's not accusing us of cheating, he's slamming us for suggesting that they might be "cheating".
BTW, if this had been a formal FreeDems "broosking operation", although we love GV dearly, we surely wouldn't have sent him to do the job :D
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on June 06, 2023, 06:33:37 PMFirst, I think it is strange that you, @Miestră Schivă, UrN are speaking on behalf on @GV when this supposedly has nothing to do with you. You have quite a few talking points lined up for something that is not an "official" FreeDems venture. Where is GV to explain his own actions?
Second and more importantly, as one of the new citizens that you are referring to, who immigrated within the last year, I can say that not once did @Breneir Tzaracomprada or any other member of the TNC approach me to join the TNC before I was a citizen. In fact, when I questioned him about TNC's platform, he refused to discuss it until I had fully immigrated!
On top of all that, I didn't even join the TNC fresh out of immigration, I joined in December of last year. A full 9 months after I immigrated because I wasn't sure I wanted to get involved in the political system at all. What was the reason for the reticence? All of the vitriol I saw spewed by members of the FreeDems! These current antics of flooding terps and spamming immigration threads only furthers my point. You can't even comprehend that someone else is doing well without resorting to cheating, and it's sad.
I ultimately joined the TNC because I saw that it was a force of good and charity in Talossa and I wanted to support its mission and promote its positive outlook for a better, friendlier nation.
In case you were looking for the "secret sauce", FreeDems, there's the recipe. If that seems too incomprehensible or puerile to you, perhaps you just need to take a long look in the mirror.
Hi.
Speaking for myself, I can say that
@GV should definitely cut it out. Had I noticed it going on before now I would have advised him of this privately (egg on my face for not keeping up with the immigration threads).
But posting the same canned message over and over again is obviously nowhere near as effective as personal solicitation would be if it were happening. The FreeDems have, I think, reasonable grounds for suspecting that that could have been occurring, although I am happy to hear it was not your experience.
I really don't appreciate you labeling the entire party as vitriolic. Partisan debate is often heated around here, and there is plenty of "vitriol" to be found on all sides if you know where to look. It is very easy to paint a bad picture of someone who is opposite from you politically when you are missing years (decades even) of essential context.
I have been political allies with S:reu Tzaracomprada and Baron Alexandreu just as often as I have opposed them. I am not saying this to score cheap political points. I am saying this to remind you that if you want cultural, non-political events to continue to be fun, you should stop castigating large groups of people without the experience or knowledge to really back it up.
Thanks
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on June 06, 2023, 04:46:59 PMIt's a really bad idea for political parties to begin recruiting prospective immigrants, since it will politicize the process in a way that can't possibly be good for the country. If political parties start hectoring potential citizens before they even immigrate, then it's going to lead to really obvious bad outcomes. We've managed to avoid this for the most part for many many years, completely voluntarily, because as a community we've agreed not to turn the citizenship process into a partisan contest.
No one here (I think) is disputing this.
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on June 06, 2023, 08:36:44 PMI really don't appreciate you labeling the entire party as vitriolic. Partisan debate is often heated around here, and there is plenty of "vitriol" to be found on all sides if you know where to look. It is very easy to paint a bad picture of someone who is opposite from you politically when you are missing years (decades even) of essential context.
Quoted for truth.
Firstly, as to vitriol, I think that that's when someone actually says they hope you die of cancer and leave your children as orphans. Which happened to me in Talossa just this month. Decades ago, a former King of Talossa actually wrote lies about me in Talossa's official history, which - as GV can confirm - new citizens simply believed because they couldn't believe friendly old Ben would just lie like that. I'm pretty sure no (current) FreeDem member has ever gone to the mattresses like that.
Secondly, Senator Plätschisch sums up my problems with how people are recruited to political parties in Talossa when he talks about "paint[ing] a bad picture of someone who is opposite from you politically" - though I would add
deliberately leaving out "years (decades even) of essential context." When this stuff is going on in PMs or private email -
whether it happens before or after immigration - it's impossible to counteract until it's already too late and the "target" has assimilated the message that you and your colleagues are vitrol-spewing cheaters.
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on June 06, 2023, 08:42:52 PMQuote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on June 06, 2023, 04:46:59 PMIt's a really bad idea for political parties to begin recruiting prospective immigrants, since it will politicize the process in a way that can't possibly be good for the country. If political parties start hectoring potential citizens before they even immigrate, then it's going to lead to really obvious bad outcomes. We've managed to avoid this for the most part for many many years, completely voluntarily, because as a community we've agreed not to turn the citizenship process into a partisan contest.
No one here (I think) is disputing this.
Great! Let's please try to all help each other maintain this norm in the future. Given GV's behavior and Miestra's spirited defense of same, the FDT position on this was not obvious.
The TNC has had a quick discussion about this over chat, and no one in our party has been broosking prospective immigrants in any way. As Carlus affirms, we try to be really firm about it, since -- as you can see! -- we think it's pretty unethical and bad for Talossa. If we hear that anyone from the TNC is broosking, either publicly or privately, we will act immediately.
As long as everyone is agreed on that, I am happy to consider the matter closed. I'm not sure it's productive to argue about the public image of your party.
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on June 06, 2023, 08:36:44 PMSpeaking for myself, I can say that @GV should definitely cut it out. Had I noticed it going on before now I would have advised him of this privately (egg on my face for not keeping up with the immigration threads).
GV is spamming prospective immigrants with FreeDem recruitment messages again. I guess this is just going to keep happening before every election? Very uncool.
We'll talk to GV.