Talossan Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Whiskey Society (TSFFWS) is here by re-established. Membership is free, casual, and based exclusively on participation.
An initial discussion:
Dune and Intentional Social Change
Earlier this year a second attempt was made to bring the story of Dune to a cinematic environment by Denis Villeneuve. The decision was made to split the complicated first novel into two films. Thus, the first film felt intentionally like half a film, a drawback to this approach, but an understandable one given the complexity of the source material, and the narrative failure of the David Lynch Dune movie. I say narrative failure as Lynch's film was visually entertaining and fascinating, yet the narrative veered so far from the source material as to have lost its meaning.
In the most recent adaptation of Dune some critics complained that it was a movie that once again glorified the idea of a white male Messiah rescuing native people from oppression. Anyone who would write that clearly doesn't understand the entirety of the initial trilogy of the Dune story, which is most aggressively anti-white male Messiah of any kind, and clearly shows the consequences of indulging in such fantasy.
For me the most important elements of the original dune trilogy, and yes I know there's more but they're so far removed for me from the original narrative as not to inspire my interest, was the thoughtful meditation on how religion is the handmaiden of political power, whether that power be established or of a revolutionary nature. It explored the incredible danger a movement or society encountered when it engages religious mythmaking as either a pathway to power or a way to safeguard power once attained.
The other most prominent feature of the Dune trilogy is the portrayal of how ecology and climate can directly and deeply affect culture, and cultural values. Some psychologist and developmental neurologists have pointed to the idea that one of the hardest things to do is to step outside of yourself and try to understand why you act the way that you do; essentially a conscious being trying to understand their own subconscious which is of course a difficult task. Cultures when they are at their best do this type of reflection as well, they can step outside of all of the variables that have shaped informed them and figure out what is worth keeping and what must be changed or outright exercised in order to advance as an ethical and surviving people.
I am curious as to if you think it's possible to do this. To be sure there are individuals who can step outside of their culture's frame of reference or outside of the narrative of those in control of the culture (for more on that please see the writings of Antonio Gramsci), but can an entire culture do that, or does it take a change of the cultural environment? In other words, for a culture to change does it have to undergo such a massive crisis that it has no choice but to change, where even that change is still being driven by the environment, or can it change by thoughtful choice and intention? Are we do doomed to be a reflection of our environment forever?
Quote from: Antonio Montagnha, Ed. D. on April 10, 2022, 11:22:18 AM
Talossan Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Whiskey Society (TSFFWS) is here by re-established.
What do you mean, "re-established"? We never went away! I hereby hand over the reins to you. What's the whisky of the week? I'm OK with the added "fantasy", but please remove the "e" from whisky!
Blessings,
Ián
That's on me. I told him that I wasn't sure you guys were still extant and that he should just get it going again.
I am delighted to see the TSFFWS is back.
Relatedly, to celebrate, I had a Bulleit Bourbon while watching the latest episodes of Star Trek: Picard and Halo on Paramount Plus.
My apologies! Does the society have a dedicated message board, or web presence?
Quote from: anglatzara on April 10, 2022, 02:26:28 PM
Quote from: Antonio Montagnha, Ed. D. on April 10, 2022, 11:22:18 AM
Talossan Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Whiskey Society (TSFFWS) is here by re-established.
What do you mean, "re-established"? We never went away! I hereby hand over the reins to you. What's the whisky of the week? I'm OK with the added "fantasy", but please remove the "e" from whisky!
Blessings,
Ián
I've been partial to Snarly Yow high rye whiskey (this one is spelled with an "e") by Two Trees lately.
To answer your question, Antonio, I think it's more common for individuals to be able to step out of their culture framework, however time and extreme circumstance (*cough*covid*cough*) can definitely shift a culture. Though by that point it's just the new cultural framework, not necessarily a study of a culture on it's own terms instead of being colored by your own preconceived notions.
I was once listening to a podcast about shamanism, and how it was only logical that nature/"earth" based religions appeal to us, because we evolved in the natural rhythms of the Earth and our environment. I think just based on the fact that we are evolved to our environment and continue to evolve to our environment, I don't think there is any escaping it.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 10, 2022, 03:35:49 PM
I had a Bulleit Bourbon
Bad choice!
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 10, 2022, 03:35:49 PMwhile watching the latest episodes of Star Trek: Picard and Halo on Paramount Plus.
Good choice!
Quote from: Antonio Montagnha, Ed. D. on April 10, 2022, 11:22:18 AM
In the most recent adaptation of Dune some critics complained that it was a movie that once again glorified the idea of a white male Messiah rescuing native people from oppression. Anyone who would write that clearly doesn't understand the entirety of the initial trilogy of the Dune story, which is most aggressively anti-white male Messiah of any kind, and clearly shows the consequences of indulging in such fantasy.
The new Dune movie was amazing but also extremely about the nobleman white Messiah parachuting in to save the darker-skinned indigenous people. Hard to blame people for observing that and being bothered by it, even if the overall arc of the series suggests more complexity. The movie was a piece of art meant to be watched and enjoyed as a coherent whole, and so while it deserves to be watched with some context, it even more deserves to be judged on its own merits.
It wasn't a straightforward text-to-screen thing, since they put in scenes and dialogue and symbolism that wasn't in the original, so they could have fixed that flaw a bit. I know they were trying to keep it as true to the text in a larger sense as they could, so I understand why they didn't address it, but that does merit some scorn.
Quote from: Antonio Montagnha, Ed. D. on April 10, 2022, 11:22:18 AMIn other words, for a culture to change does it have to undergo such a massive crisis that it has no choice but to change, where even that change is still being driven by the environment, or can it change by thoughtful choice and intention? Are we do doomed to be a reflection of our environment forever?
I think environmental determinism has fallen out of favor since the heyday of Jared Diamond's
Guns, Germs, and Steel, but there's a lot to be said for that broad view of history in explaining away some of the most fundamental aspects of global inequality. It sucks that so much of our world can be explained by regional geographical axes, but that does seem to be the case for a long time. But it also seems to point to an endpoint of that view -- maybe in the recent past, maybe in the future. Population density can explain an enormous amount, but as technology lessens that advantage, there's no reason to think that it will continue forever. Rome could spawn Ciceros and Caesars aplenty, but now Ciceros can wage words and Caesars can wage wars with less consideration of geography.
We'll probably have the answer in like a century or so.
Alas, we used to, but we no longer have. And no need for apologies, even though the TSF&WS was never dissolved, it doesn't mean it has been active in any meaningful way. Anyhow, you are its glorious leader now.
Quote from: Antonio Montagnha, Ed. D. on April 10, 2022, 04:34:11 PM
My apologies! Does the society have a dedicated message board, or web presence?
Quote from: anglatzara on April 10, 2022, 02:26:28 PM
Quote from: Antonio Montagnha, Ed. D. on April 10, 2022, 11:22:18 AM
Talossan Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Whiskey Society (TSFFWS) is here by re-established.
What do you mean, "re-established"? We never went away! I hereby hand over the reins to you. What's the whisky of the week? I'm OK with the added "fantasy", but please remove the "e" from whisky!
Blessings,
Ián
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 10, 2022, 09:16:48 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 10, 2022, 03:35:49 PM
I had a Bulleit Bourbon
Bad choice!
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 10, 2022, 03:35:49 PMwhile watching the latest episodes of Star Trek: Picard and Halo on Paramount Plus.
Good choice!
Ok. My usual choice for whiskey and sci-fi pairings is 1792. Being from Bardstown, bourbon capital of the world, it usually has to be from my home region.
Bulleit used to be so good, but like five years ago they changed the blend. It's a sad story. I'm more of a gin man generally, but even I could taste the tragedy.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 10, 2022, 03:35:49 PM
I am delighted to see the TSFFWS is back.
Relatedly, to celebrate, I had a Bulleit Bourbon while watching the latest episodes of Star Trek: Picard and Halo on Paramount Plus.
What do you think of 'Picard'? Is it worth getting Paramount Plus just to watch that?
Quote from: GV on April 11, 2022, 02:17:12 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 10, 2022, 03:35:49 PM
I am delighted to see the TSFFWS is back.
Relatedly, to celebrate, I had a Bulleit Bourbon while watching the latest episodes of Star Trek: Picard and Halo on Paramount Plus.
What do you think of 'Picard'? Is it worth getting Paramount Plus just to watch that?
I don't know about Picard, but I got Paramount Plus just to watch Star Trek: Discovery and I have no regrets at all.
Quote from: GV on April 11, 2022, 02:17:12 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 10, 2022, 03:35:49 PM
I am delighted to see the TSFFWS is back.
Relatedly, to celebrate, I had a Bulleit Bourbon while watching the latest episodes of Star Trek: Picard and Halo on Paramount Plus.
What do you think of 'Picard'? Is it worth getting Paramount Plus just to watch that?
I think so. Paramount Plus is Star Trek Central.
I am enjoying the second season of Picard much more than the first. And I am actually enjoying Season 2 of Picard more than ST: Discovery. Of course, I grew up on TNG so I may be biased.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 11, 2022, 03:31:56 PM
Quote from: GV on April 11, 2022, 02:17:12 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 10, 2022, 03:35:49 PM
I am delighted to see the TSFFWS is back.
Relatedly, to celebrate, I had a Bulleit Bourbon while watching the latest episodes of Star Trek: Picard and Halo on Paramount Plus.
What do you think of 'Picard'? Is it worth getting Paramount Plus just to watch that?
I think so. Paramount Plus is Star Trek Central.
I am enjoying the second season of Picard much more than the first. And I am actually enjoying Season 2 of Picard more than ST: Discovery. Of course, I grew up on TNG so I may be biased.
The 2nd season of Picard is very well done and it gives me all "the feels" from TNG when I was in High School.
I just realized I have both ingredients to join this club:
-Old Forrester (the oldest continuously sold bourbon)
-The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein
I'm a huge fan of whisky, in particular single malt Scotch. When I was in Scotland a few years back, I was introduced to several varieties, including my favorite, Dalmore 15 year.
Also, as I am actually a published SciFi writer in my own accord, I too believe I should join this group!
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on April 11, 2022, 08:03:13 PM
I just realized I have both ingredients to join this club:
-Old Forrester (the oldest continuously sold bourbon)
-The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein
TANSTAAFL!
i like all three adaptations of dune. lynch's for aesthetics and weirdness, sy-fy channel one for the "children of dune" part especially, but also for the dark anti-messianic part in "dune messiah". the very new one has lavishing production design, it is the most "word-for-word" story with some innovative scenes (atreides mounds), but also some modern visual clichés, which i am not much fond of.
on personal note, one benefit of being an older man from central europe post-commie country, e.g., i really never understood the ranting against dark skin dwarfs or elves in witcher adaptation, i was rather pissed by the stupid script ;) and as for the dune "white aristocrat saves dark-skinned population", i've never read it there. for me, it is a story about the future of mankind, the formation of golden path, i paid not much attention to paul's aristocratic origin and colonial connotations of his relations to fremen. the story has its setup, it is not black and white, the auctorial inspirations in the real world are clear, and human society is based on stereotypes whether we like it or not. i have difficulties reading SF literary, cos these are modern myths, of course with cultural stereotypes, innovated by the auctorial imagination, but still metaphors and stories. if we treat thoroughly literature through a modern social paradigm (not get confused, i am very much happy to see the progress in the removal of social discrimination of any kind currently going on), we will trash the majority of it, cos it always may/will contain stereotypes not acceptable today. as the saying goes, we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
currently, i am watching imho under-rated star trek - enterprise. i like the hoshi character quite a lot and all the xenolinguistic stuff. as far as the modern STs, like discovery and picard, i very fine with both.
and for whisky, i am not much of a drinker, i have just two trophy bottles - glenfiddich 12 yrs, glenmorangie 18 yrs. and one bottle of grant's, which i possibly should not mention at all :)
Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on April 11, 2022, 08:21:47 PM
Also, as I am actually a published SciFi writer in my own accord, I too believe I should join this group!
what? where? or it never happened :)
i published 7 SF stories, ranging from 1994, the last in 2011. all in czech, except for one in german ;) 5 in three different magazines (ikarie, urania, imlandris), three of them in two anthologies (1+2). and won one local price :) for tolkien fanfiction stories.
wrote about 70 more, my reader club was enthusiastic but rather few in numbers. hard to say if cos i am not good enough or just too weird :) i quit writing around 2015, run out of juice.
Quote from: Ián S.G. Txaglh on April 12, 2022, 02:56:16 AM
as for the dune "white aristocrat saves dark-skinned population", i've never read it there. for me, it is a story about the future of mankind, the formation of golden path, i paid not much attention to paul's aristocratic origin and colonial connotations of his relations to fremen. the story has its setup, it is not black and white, the auctorial inspirations in the real world are clear, and human society is based on stereotypes whether we like it or not. i have difficulties reading SF literary, cos these are modern myths, of course with cultural stereotypes, innovated by the auctorial imagination, but still metaphors and stories. if we treat thoroughly literature through a modern social paradigm (not get confused, i am very much happy to see the progress in the removal of social discrimination of any kind currently going on), we will trash the majority of it, cos it always may/will contain stereotypes not acceptable today. as the saying goes, we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
No one's saying it should be thrown out, but there's a big middle ground between "never read this" and "there's nothing problematic here." And man, there's a lot that's problematic.
I think it's really hard to dispute the white savior problem with
Dune, even read in context. Pale-skinned, aristocratic foreign Paul, who grew up in a rocky and cool climate, arrives at in underdeveloped desert area with one established "civilized" city and a vast desert region populated almost entirely by a dark-skinned indigenous people who are known for their physical prowess, survival skills, and deeply-felt strange customs. He proceeds to take advantage of religious superstitions, deliberately planted by early colonizers, to assume power, and he brings the fantastic knowledge and skills of his culture to bear to organize the indigenous people into a "screaming jihad" for his own ends. From first to last, it's the classic white savior story. It's actually rather worse than some other famously problematic stories, like
John Carter of Mars or
Avatar, since it's so on-the-nose -- the Fremen are literally said to be the contemporary descendants of Muslims, while Paul's holy book is the Orange Catholic Bible.
None of that is to say that we shouldn't read the book. Hell, I love the Barsoom stories (not
Avatar, though -- can't believe they're making five more). Definitely an amazing story and an amazing read. It's just something readers should know about and think about, rather than unconsciously absorbing the implicit message buried within the story.
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 12, 2022, 09:11:21 AM
Quote from: Ián S.G. Txaglh on April 12, 2022, 02:56:16 AM
as for the dune "white aristocrat saves dark-skinned population", i've never read it there. for me, it is a story about the future of mankind, the formation of golden path, i paid not much attention to paul's aristocratic origin and colonial connotations of his relations to fremen. the story has its setup, it is not black and white, the auctorial inspirations in the real world are clear, and human society is based on stereotypes whether we like it or not. i have difficulties reading SF literary, cos these are modern myths, of course with cultural stereotypes, innovated by the auctorial imagination, but still metaphors and stories. if we treat thoroughly literature through a modern social paradigm (not get confused, i am very much happy to see the progress in the removal of social discrimination of any kind currently going on), we will trash the majority of it, cos it always may/will contain stereotypes not acceptable today. as the saying goes, we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
No one's saying it should be thrown out, but there's a big middle ground between "never read this" and "there's nothing problematic here." And man, there's a lot that's problematic.
I think it's really hard to dispute the white savior problem with Dune, even read in context. Pale-skinned, aristocratic foreign Paul, who grew up in a rocky and cool climate, arrives at in underdeveloped desert area with one established "civilized" city and a vast desert region populated almost entirely by a dark-skinned indigenous people who are known for their physical prowess, survival skills, and deeply-felt strange customs. He proceeds to take advantage of religious superstitions, deliberately planted by early colonizers, to assume power, and he brings the fantastic knowledge and skills of his culture to bear to organize the indigenous people into a "screaming jihad" for his own ends. From first to last, it's the classic white savior story. It's actually rather worse than some other famously problematic stories, like John Carter of Mars or Avatar, since it's so on-the-nose -- the Fremen are literally said to be the contemporary descendants of Muslims, while Paul's holy book is the Orange Catholic Bible.
None of that is to say that we shouldn't read the book. Hell, I love the Barsoom stories (not Avatar, though -- can't believe they're making five more). Definitely an amazing story and an amazing read. It's just something readers should know about and think about, rather than unconsciously absorbing the implicit message buried within the story.
thnx, this is quite interesting! you are offering interpretations i was not able to make (most probably due to cultural differences). i always thought about caladan/arrakis dichotomy primarily in an ecological sense - caladan is totally different environment/niche for life than arrakis, and paul has to adopt and understand the difference. now, i can see allusions to brits/arabs or americans/indians, but it definitely wasn't my first thought. also, the bene gesserit/
missionaria protectiva were not colonisers, but unscrupulous manipulators with a plan, who spread
panoplia propheticus to have an easier ground when needed anything accomplished on those worlds. paul used it to the same extent as he originally followed the
kwisatz haderach path, the main interest of bene gesserit (although in a way the bene gesserit did not want it ;). it seems to me to be smth different from classical white saviour. he was willingly a revolutionary (mostly like those classical anarcho-terrorists, who planned to destroy the world to build it
de novo), unwillingly he was a model for a messianic failure, the first step to the golden path.
weren't fremens zensunni, rather than muslim? and orange catholic bible is also a tricky name, as it was a very general blend of human religious thoughts from many curious religions, like mahayana christianity, zensunni catholicism, and buddislam :)
i am always trying to be very critical of myself not to overinterpret stories cos it is a trap one may fall easily into. so that might be the reason i see the dune story (the first book minimally) in a different way. all these connotations you are talking about simply never came to my mind earlier. for me dune is a philosophical (well, less of that in a story would be beneficial) polit-fiction, rooted in a growing sense of ecology; imho herbert was thinking about what is the way mankind should take to survive in an uttermost niche - the universe. and how it could happen.
Sure, all the details are more complicated than just "white guy saves the brown folks," but the overarching pattern is clear.
To take your example of the religions being syncretic, okay: the Zensunni are simultaneously representative of the Jews, Muslim tradition, and Zen Buddhists. They don't really talk about it much, except to say that they were wanderers who fled from repeated pogroms and their religion came from Sunni Islam and Zen Buddhism. But, I mean, come on... the brown-skinned desert nomads who are going to go on a religious jihad (it's even literally labeled a "jihad")? It's very clearly a pastiche of Muslim stereotype.
As a Star Trek lover from way back (who knows way too much about it...lol) I have enjoyed it despite feeling it has pacing issues, and seeming not to know what to do with some very good starting ideas. For my money, Lower Decks has been to best of the current offering on new Trek shows, and I have high hopes for Strange New Worlds.
Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on April 11, 2022, 04:36:56 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 11, 2022, 03:31:56 PM
Quote from: GV on April 11, 2022, 02:17:12 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 10, 2022, 03:35:49 PM
I am delighted to see the TSFFWS is back.
Relatedly, to celebrate, I had a Bulleit Bourbon while watching the latest episodes of Star Trek: Picard and Halo on Paramount Plus.
What do you think of 'Picard'? Is it worth getting Paramount Plus just to watch that?
I think so. Paramount Plus is Star Trek Central.
I am enjoying the second season of Picard much more than the first. And I am actually enjoying Season 2 of Picard more than ST: Discovery. Of course, I grew up on TNG so I may be biased.
The 2nd season of Picard is very well done and it gives me all "the feels" from TNG when I was in High School.
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 12, 2022, 11:11:37 AM
Sure, all the details are more complicated than just "white guy saves the brown folks," but the overarching pattern is clear.
To take your example of the religions being syncretic, okay: the Zensunni are simultaneously representative of the Jews, Muslim tradition, and Zen Buddhists. They don't really talk about it much, except to say that they were wanderers who fled from repeated pogroms and their religion came from Sunni Islam and Zen Buddhism. But, I mean, come on... the brown-skinned desert nomads who are going to go on a religious jihad (it's even literally labeled a "jihad")? It's very clearly a pastiche of Muslim stereotype.
ok, yes, fremen were excited up to the level they waged the total war (jihad) in a name of their prophet, paul muad'dib. they were from the desert. they weren't brown-skinned, as herbert was not talking about the colour of skin at all (afaik and from what i found in commentaries). honestly, i did not see there a particular muslim stereotype, rather a religious fanaticism stereotype (jihading, crusading, pogroming...). all the arabic (and not necessarily muslim) connotations to fremen are stereotypical, as it is the closest to any desert civilisation ordinary westerners can imagine. but even using arabic, herbert used concepts from different religions, like in the case of shai-hulúd, grandfather of the desert, with hidden meaning "thing of immortality", high proly from some far eastern religion.
anyway, it is interesting to see/read different interpretations of such a complex story, which interpretations escaped my attention ;)
Quote from: Ián S.G. Txaglh on April 13, 2022, 05:48:00 AM
ok, yes, fremen were excited up to the level they waged the total war (jihad) in a name of their prophet, paul muad'dib. they were from the desert. they weren't brown-skinned, as herbert was not talking about the colour of skin at all (afaik and from what i found in commentaries). honestly, i did not see there a particular muslim stereotype, rather a religious fanaticism stereotype (jihading, crusading, pogroming...). all the arabic (and not necessarily muslim) connotations to fremen are stereotypical, as it is the closest to any desert civilisation ordinary westerners can imagine. but even using arabic, herbert used concepts from different religions, like in the case of shai-hulúd, grandfather of the desert, with hidden meaning "thing of immortality", high proly from some far eastern religion.
It is a sci-fi book, it's true, and so it's not literally a white Christian saving brown Muslims. But we might not be able to come to an agreement if you can't imagine that the Arabic-speaking Quran-quoting desert-dwelling pseudo-Sunni jihadis were largely intended to represent our world's Muslims. I mean, really everyone is mostly Muslim, but the Fremen are very obviously an allegory for a certain current stereotype.
Either way, I don't think that specifically is the problem. It's probably
good that an author isn't just doing another pseudo-Rome in the future, but instead representing the possible future of other cultures (like
Firefly's Chinese). It's just problematic when combined with the white/foreign/aristocratic savior narrative, and the recent film was significantly more problematic in the same way.
We can certainly agree that it's a great book, at least :)
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 13, 2022, 07:35:26 AM
Quote from: Ián S.G. Txaglh on April 13, 2022, 05:48:00 AM
ok, yes, fremen were excited up to the level they waged the total war (jihad) in a name of their prophet, paul muad'dib. they were from the desert. they weren't brown-skinned, as herbert was not talking about the colour of skin at all (afaik and from what i found in commentaries). honestly, i did not see there a particular muslim stereotype, rather a religious fanaticism stereotype (jihading, crusading, pogroming...). all the arabic (and not necessarily muslim) connotations to fremen are stereotypical, as it is the closest to any desert civilisation ordinary westerners can imagine. but even using arabic, herbert used concepts from different religions, like in the case of shai-hulúd, grandfather of the desert, with hidden meaning "thing of immortality", high proly from some far eastern religion.
It is a sci-fi book, it's true, and so it's not literally a white Christian saving brown Muslims. But we might not be able to come to an agreement if you can't imagine that the Arabic-speaking Quran-quoting desert-dwelling pseudo-Sunni jihadis were largely intended to represent our world's Muslims. I mean, really everyone is mostly Muslim, but the Fremen are very obviously an allegory for a certain current stereotype.
Either way, I don't think that specifically is the problem. It's probably good that an author isn't just doing another pseudo-Rome in the future, but instead representing the possible future of other cultures (like Firefly's Chinese). It's just problematic when combined with the white/foreign/aristocratic savior narrative, and the recent film was significantly more problematic in the same way.
We can certainly agree that it's a great book, at least :)
definitely, we can very much agree that dune is a fascinating and interesting book/series. i've read the first book when i was 17 (1988), and i was totally consumed by it. it was a rare occasion of a big english written SF being translated and published during the commie regime. in that time, LOTR was only circulating as samizdat, and only very few english writing SF authors had their books published here (mostly bradbury and clarke).
btw, how do you like the following books (by frank h.)? i see a peak in
god emperor of dune, the idea of the golden path is simply super cool. i have to admit, that books by the son are far worse imho. i was able to go through the first trilogy,
prelude to dune, as they say today "not great, not terrible" (poor dyatlov, could have never thought to become a meme-maker for westerners), but i was so angry and frustrated reading the first book of
butlerian jihad, that i resigned and do not have guts to continue.
and i see, we share also affection for
firefly, which i like a lot (even the movie ;) ). the use of chinese language and cultural stereotypes in it was quite good and on spot.
so, cheers, or "na zdraví", as it is also a whisky society :)
Quote from: Ián S.G. Txaglh on April 13, 2022, 11:40:00 AM
btw, how do you like the following books (by frank h.)? i see a peak in god emperor of dune, the idea of the golden path is simply super cool. i have to admit, that books by the son are far worse imho. i was able to go through the first trilogy, prelude to dune, as they say today "not great, not terrible" (poor dyatlov, could have never thought to become a meme-maker for westerners), but i was so angry and frustrated reading the first book of butlerian jihad, that i resigned and do not have guts to continue.
The sequels are all pretty poor, with the son's books even worse. I think that
Dune used up most of Herbert's big ideas, and because it ended with a prescient messiah-figure coming into ultimate power, it's hard to realistically provide challenges. Part of what makes
Dune fun is that it has very clear conceptions of good and evil, and the good guys struggle against enormous odds but succeed because of their virtue and their skill. In the sequels, they have to kind of invent new challenges for people who already are at the top, and it's a different sort of story that doesn't work as well.
The son's books are, frankly, just standard-issue scifi that doesn't have any of the depth of thought or consideration of the original.
Quote from: Ián S.G. Txaglh on April 13, 2022, 11:40:00 AM
i was so angry and frustrated reading the first book of butlerian jihad, that i resigned and do not have guts to continue.
and i see, we share also affection for firefly, which i like a lot (even the movie ;) ). the use of chinese language and cultural stereotypes in it was quite good and on spot.
This makes me sad, because I found the idea of the Butlerian Jihad really interesting and I wanted to read the book I just hadn't gotten to it yet.
And always good to meet more browncoats! I too love Firefly and Serenity.
@Ruban2023 This is the Science Fiction Club area. If you participate in discussions here then you're a member. There's no real membership process just people interested in science fiction discussing science fiction.