Tuischach,
I rise with a question for the Seneschal. Recent governments have held their deliberations in the Cabinet thread here on Wittenberg which is an eventual archive accessible to the public. Where is the current Cabinet holding its deliberations? And if in multiple areas, to what extent are the deliberations being held in the Wittenberg Cabinet thread?
I thank the Member for his question.
When the Cabinet board on Wittenberg was opened to us, we found a note the from the previous Government, where a Cabinet Minister said to his colleagues something along the lines of "this is a permanent record, so don't put anything on here you'll be embarrassed for future Governments to find out". So, we are trying to emulate our predecessors in this regard.
The current Cabinet uses this board for substantive discussions, alongside a Discord channel for real-time communication. I have asked Ministers who raise things that are long or substantive in the Discord channel to put them in the Wittenberg board.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on September 07, 2024, 05:19:37 PMI thank the Member for his question.
When the Cabinet board on Wittenberg was opened to us, we found a note the from the previous Government, where a Cabinet Minister said to his colleagues something along the lines of "this is a permanent record, so don't put anything on here you'll be embarrassed for future Governments to find out". So, we are trying to emulate our predecessors in this regard.
The current Cabinet uses this board for substantive discussions, alongside a Discord channel for real-time communication. I have asked Ministers who raise things that are long or substantive in the Discord channel to put them in the Wittenberg board.
Supplementary question: That seems like reasonable advice, who made that statement? If you are comfortable making the statement itself public then feel free to identify the source of the opinion and not government policy.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on September 07, 2024, 06:32:45 PMSupplementary question: That seems like reasonable advice, who made that statement? If you are comfortable making the statement itself public then feel free to identify the source of the opinion and not government policy.
I am not going to "drop someone in it" publicly, but the Member will find the answer in his PM folder directly.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on September 08, 2024, 03:44:32 PMQuote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on September 07, 2024, 06:32:45 PMSupplementary question: That seems like reasonable advice, who made that statement? If you are comfortable making the statement itself public then feel free to identify the source of the opinion and not government policy.
I am not going to "drop someone in it" publicly, but the Member will find the answer in his PM folder directly.
I thank you for your reply. For the public record, the Minister sent a private message identifying Baron Alexandreu Davinescu as the person who made the statement.
I hope the record shows that the Opposition Leader has just performed what is described in the vernacular as a "dick move", for which I confess I am befuddled as to the motivation, and I apologise to Baron Davinescu.
No worries! I appreciate the efforts you made for sensitivity.
For what it's worth, I'm not embarrassed by this. Organizing a government is a whole lot of work, and that means setting out expectations and standards. We used that Cabinet board as the place where we actually discussed most policies and plans, but I didn't want everyone to get too cozy and forget that it was also a public record. It's very easy to make an offhand comment that's thoughtless or cruel or offensive about someone in a casual environment, and it'd be crazy not to remind people about that.
By the way, it'd be completely fine with me if succeeding Governments got some use out of the other things I created for our term, such as the standardized templates/abbreviations for announcements and the Talossan-English Governmental Phrasebook. That's all property of the government, as far as I can see, and we're definitely due for more standardization so every government doesn't have to reinvent the wheel. That's also why I got the Google Drive set up for the government, where hopefully you guys are finding all of the resources created and immediately made available to future ministreux.
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on September 08, 2024, 08:25:22 PMNo worries! I appreciate the efforts you made for sensitivity.
For what it's worth, I'm not embarrassed by this. Organizing a government is a whole lot of work, and that means setting out expectations and standards. We used that Cabinet board as the place where we actually discussed most policies and plans, but I didn't want everyone to get too cozy and forget that it was also a public record. It's very easy to make an offhand comment that's thoughtless or cruel or offensive about someone in a casual environment, and it'd be crazy not to remind people about that.
By the way, it'd be completely fine with me if succeeding Governments got some use out of the other things I created for our term, such as the standardized templates/abbreviations for announcements and the Talossan-English Governmental Phrasebook. That's all property of the government, as far as I can see, and we're definitely due for more standardization so every government doesn't have to reinvent the wheel. That's also why I got the Google Drive set up for the government, where hopefully you guys are finding all of the resources created and immediately made available to future ministreux.
There's no reason for you to be embarrassed, Baron. It was reasonable advice which Miestra though was useful for political point-scoring.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on September 08, 2024, 08:28:27 PMIt was reasonable advice which Miestra though was useful for political point-scoring.
???
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on September 08, 2024, 08:56:29 PMQuote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on September 08, 2024, 08:28:27 PMIt was reasonable advice which Miestra though was useful for political point-scoring.
???
Yeah, this doesn't make sense. I think he doesn't like how this turned out. He went to some lengths and got very awkward to publicly identify me as the author of that advice, but my explanation turns out to be pretty reasonable... so that makes him look shabby in retrospect. What else to do but muddy the waters, amirite?
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on September 08, 2024, 09:08:54 PMQuote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on September 08, 2024, 08:56:29 PMQuote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on September 08, 2024, 08:28:27 PMIt was reasonable advice which Miestra though was useful for political point-scoring.
???
Yeah, this doesn't make sense. I think he doesn't like how this turned out. He went to some lengths and got very awkward to publicly identify me as the author of that advice, but my explanation turns out to be pretty reasonable... so that makes him look shabby in retrospect. What else to do but muddy the waters, amirite?
No, I shared your name without any awkwardness after Miestra shared it with me. And after Miestra shared your statement here in an answer to my terpelaziun. The awkwardness started when Miestra took a statement from a private board to make a political point. And it continued when I asked her to share the name of the statement she shared. I am naturally awkward so it didn't bother me then or now but I thought she should go all the way if she wants to start sharing private statements.
As an example, I shared that Miestra told me in the Organic Law committee that she saw no problem with the SoS also serving as Party President. There was no withholding of the name (for sensitivity). If she were worried about "sensitivity" she would not have shared the private statement in the first place.
lol ok
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on September 08, 2024, 09:14:43 PMThe awkwardness started when Miestra took a statement from a private board to make a political point.
Yipes, this gets weirder all the time. The Cabinet board is not a "private" board, it is a confidential but official board. The whole point of this debate is that what happens there isn't a secret once the Government changes, and I *agreed* with the previous government's stand on this issue. I mean, if the Leader of the Opposition now wants to *distance* himself from the decisions of the previous TNC government - by picking on a former political ally - then fine, but I can't work out what the proposed alternative is.
Anyway, this is no longer an answer to a TERP, but something of a free-for-all caused by the questioner dragging a third MC's name into things.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on September 08, 2024, 09:37:32 PMQuote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on September 08, 2024, 09:14:43 PMThe awkwardness started when Miestra took a statement from a private board to make a political point.
Yipes, this gets weirder all the time. The Cabinet board is not a "private" board, it is a confidential but official board. The whole point of this debate is that what happens there isn't a secret once the Government changes, and I *agreed* with the previous government's stand on this issue. I mean, if the Leader of the Opposition now wants to *distance* himself from the decisions of the previous TNC government - by picking on a former political ally - then fine, but I can't work out what the proposed alternative is.
Anyway, this is no longer an answer to a TERP, but something of a free-for-all caused by the questioner dragging a third MC's name into things.
That is incorrect. The messages are confidential on the board until it is released by the Archives in seven years time it does not become public upon a change in Government. I recall there being a great deal of squabbling about that time period so I know it is confidential.
You shared a private message for political purposes and then things "got awkward" when you were asked to identify WHO made that statement. YOU dragged that MC into this.
As moderator of Witt I'd like to remind the participants in this thread of the purpose of this thread. Thanks.
Thanks Txec. Things seem well clarified now.
Unlike the former OrgLaw Standing Committee, the Cabinet is a constitutional body with a tradition of collective responsibility. That is, if it was a position taken by the previous Government, it doesn't matter who said it, all the previous Cabinet are bound by it, until they publicly disassociate from it (once they are no longer in Cabinet). The "seven-year rule" applies *specifically* to internal debates within the Cabinet and the associated names of individuals.
In any case, this is the precedent that my Government will follow in regards to previous Cabinet discussions: we will not discuss individual Cabinet Ministers or intra-Cabinet debates, but - if we are asked a question on X, and a previous Government took a position on X, even if not publicly reported - we *will* offer that information, in the interests of informing the public. The Leader of the Opposition is guilty of what would be considered a "breach of privilege" in other jurisdictions.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on September 08, 2024, 10:01:23 PMUnlike the former OrgLaw Standing Committee, the Cabinet is a constitutional body with a tradition of collective responsibility. That is, if it was a position taken by the previous Government, it doesn't matter who said it, all the previous Cabinet are bound by it, until they publicly disassociate from it (once they are no longer in Cabinet). The "seven-year rule" applies *specifically* to internal debates within the Cabinet and the associated names of individuals.
In any case, this is the precedent that my Government will follow in regards to previous Cabinet discussions: we will not discuss individual Cabinet Ministers or intra-Cabinet debates, but - if we are asked a question on X, and a previous Government took a position on X, even if not publicly reported - we *will* offer that information, in the interests of informing the public. The Leader of the Opposition is guilty of what would be considered a "breach of privilege" in other jurisdictions.
Again, as the author of the bill, I will remind you that is incorrect. The messages in that thread are confidential and are supposed to be archived for the Archivist with public availability seven years after the end of that government's term. I will say it again...you shared a confidential message to make a political point. And yes, I admit, I shared the name you shared with me via PM. :)
My legal advice to the rest of the Cabinet is that Lex.D.8.9 does not stipulate that no contents of the cabinet forum may be released until the after the 7-year period. It only stipulates that all of the contents (except contents exempted by D.8.2 - D.8.4) shall be released at that time.