May it please His Majesty,
I am Pôl dal Nordselvă , brother of King Txec, herby apply to the Squirrel King of Arms to approve and acknowledge my personal coat of arms. If it so pleases the Squirrel King of Arms, I request the assistance of the College in designing and obtaining arms for myself and my lawful heirs. I would make the background Dodger blue, but that might be unusual. Also I humbly ask to not need to bring a shrubbery! Coincidentally the proposed coat of arms I present includes a holy grail. Pure coincidence...
https://imgur.com/a/Frl1u6A
(https://imgur.com/a/Frl1u6A)
Thank you for your request, which is in good order. Different shades of blue are not done, but emblazonments have no standardized hues -- if you end up with azure arms, it can be any shade you wish. The Green Town Pursuivant,
@Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat , is assigned to handle this request.
-SVA
It will be my pleasure and great honour to serve the brother of His Majesty.
-Green Town
There is a hope that his arms could be ready in time for the Sovereign's Birthday Honours, as that is Pôl's birthday also. If not possible, no worries though!
-TR/REH
Understood, Your Majesty, I will do my best!
-Green Town
I submitted proposed arms. I can remove the motto until approved if needed.
https://imgur.com/a/Frl1u6A
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on January 07, 2025, 09:57:19 AMUnderstood, Your Majesty, I will do my best!
-Green Town
Sorry, but when will I be contacted? I have already designed a coat of arms of which His Majesty reviewed and said he believed it to be un good order. I sont know uf there is a process that can be moved along or not or what the process is. Thanks for any guidance.
https://imgur.com/a/Frl1u6A
Quote from: Pôl dal Nordselvă on January 08, 2025, 01:19:00 AMQuote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on January 07, 2025, 09:57:19 AMUnderstood, Your Majesty, I will do my best!
-Green Town
Sorry, but when will I be contacted? I have already designed a coat of arms of which His Majesty reviewed and said he believed it to be un good order. I sont know uf there is a process that can be moved along or not or what the process is. Thanks for any guidance.
https://imgur.com/a/Frl1u6A
My apologies, I've been reviewing the design and drafting a message. I'll have it to you within the hour.
-Green Town
Hi, what about this. I changed things a bit based on your suggestions.
https://imgur.com/c3QkZmL
That looks great!
After conferring with the armiger I submit the following blazon for approval:
QuoteQuarterly, gules and ermine. In the first quarter a book leaved argent and in the fourth quarter a grail or, gemmed proper.
-Green Town
(https://i.imgur.com/c3QkZmL.png)
No other escutcheon in our armorial bears the name of the armiger. The name should be removed.
-TR/REH
Quote from: King Txec on January 10, 2025, 09:24:39 AMNo other escutcheon in our armorial bears the name of the armiger. The name should be removed.
-TR/REH
Is that a requirement to remove the name? I thought it was allowed in heraldic arms.
Our rules of heraldry supersede any other established systems. https://wiki.talossa.com/Rules_of_Heraldry#5._Badges,_Banners,_and_Adornments
I'll leave this for the Squirrel Viceroy of Arms
@Baron Alexandreu Davinescu to decide.
-TR/REH
With respect I'd like to have this considered as presented. I didn't see anything in the wiki document that prohibits a banner with the surname, that was why I added it. I'm not looking to cause issues. I appreciate the consideration requested, Using my surname is for a sentimental reason. Because neither I nor His Majesty have male offspring, our family name will become extinct upon our death. I'd hope that can be taken into consideration.
With respect,
I would like to make a key point: there is no name on the achievement. The achievement is the blazon: Quarterly, gules and ermine. In the first quarter a book leaved argent and in the fourth quarter a grail or, gemmed proper.
The thing with the name is a picture, a rendering of that blazon. And while we make a practice of creating fairly standardized, dignified, and pretty emblazonments, they are not being awarded officially and the use of any particular one is not something that we govern.
This label, then, is not under consideration for the grant. It does not appear in the blazon.
If the armiger wishes his name to be a key feature of the blazon, then that is a separate question. A redesign might be possible. But the label is ornamental in this depiction, and it will not be awarded.
-SVA
Adornments are clearly covered under our rules of heraldry:
QuoteBadges and banners may be adopted by armigers at will, but they should be registered with the College of Arms. Members of a household may all display the badge of the head of the household, or they may adopt their own badge. Badges may also be used for display on personal possessions.
Members of the orders of knighthood are entitled to bear achievements of arms augmented by a belt (coloured according to the particular order), a helm, and a motto.
Members of the peerage are entitled to enhancement of their achievements of arms consisting of a motto, a crowned helm, a crest, and mantling. Dukes alone are further entitled to adorn their achievements of arms with supporters.
There is no provision for surname labels.
There are several paths forward:
A. The armiger may accept the blazon as suggested, and display it with an "unofficial" label. It would be discouraged to display it thus on Wittenberg, but it could be made into a sign to be hung in the home with such a label.
B. The armiger may request the design be modified to include a
representation of his name. An initial is a heraldic charge, but a name is not. (I believe; I have not done any research and the best resource for such design would be the patient and excellent Green Town.)
C. His Majesty may award anything he pleases, including the first labeled achievement, and the Coletx will devise new rules to accommodate this. We are entirely at His Majesty's service. However, His Majesty seems disinclined to start a new tradition in this respect, and the Coletx would respectfully advise against it.
The advice and opinions of other members of the Coletx --
not the general public -- are welcome as we address this issue.
-SVA
You are correct SVA that it is the blazon that is awarded, not the visual representation or emblazon. When I was initially awarded my own arms back in 2012 or so, I redesigned the emblazon myself because I didn't really like the style of ermine that were represented. I am agnostic on the topic of these arms when it comes to the label Nordselva. For me, it is the blazon that is most important, as you said, "Quarterly, gules and ermine. In the first quarter a book leaved argent and in the fourth quarter a grail or, gemmed proper."
If my brother, the petitioner, is amenable, we will award the arms as blazoned. He is free to use any visual emblazon he wishes to use. I am not looking to rewrite the rules of heraldry here. I believe our methods are time tested and are effective.
-TR/REH
I will respect your decision. I don't want to cause issues. This is something that can be further discussed at a later date.
Here is the latest iteration
COA2-transparent.png
I'm sorry I was OOO over the weekend, but after getting caught up, I was also on the same page with the Squirrel Viceroy of Arms that the blazon, without the name, is what is awarded. The
emblazon being more open to poetic license within reason. I did not anticipate using the surname on the emblazon on Wittenberg would be a problem, though I understand the reasoning.
However, after doing some research, though rare, it does appear there is precedent for words as charges, not just letters as illustrated with several historical examples here: https://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/Jpglossl.htm#Letters. This should have also been obvious to me given the split "veritas" in the arms of Harvard University, but I digress.
Since it is clearly important to the armiger that his surname be officially included in the arms, and though out of the ordinary (heraldic pun intended), there seems to be no rule against using words and escrolls as charges, I respectfully propose the following amended blazon for consideration:
QuoteQuarterly, gules and ermine. In the first quarter a book leaved argent, in the fourth quarter a grail or, gemmed proper and in base over all, an escroll argent bearing the word "Nordselvă" sable.
-Green Town
Just let me know what the plan is since I'm ready to issue a grant of arms tomorrow for the Sovereign's Birthday Honours. It could always be issued belated if more time is required.
- TR/REH
I have some concerns, although I hope they can be resolved very soon.
The rules of heraldry have as one of their main points that arms should generally evoke their original principal of battlefield signage by being very visually distinct, even small or from a distance: "All armory must have sufficient contrast to allow each element of the design to be clearly identifiable at a distance."
While this principle is not always followed with absolute fidelity in the past, neither is any other principle of heraldry, and it is one of the reasons why this body has declined to advise for the awarding of achievements that include words. I do not feel it will be good practice to begin the precedent of including longer words in achievements. We don't want to be too restrictive, so incorporating the initial as a charge would make sense. Or possibly striking other charges, and having the name be the only charge. In such a case, the text will be larger and more identifiable, and this discourage the incorporation of names or text as charges in complex designs in the future.
I would also note that the name could be adopted as a slogan that is also officially awarded, in the case of a grant of knighthood in the future.
- SVA
That makes sense and is logical, even if it destroys my Air Bud defense.
I will confer with the armiger.
- Green Town
I displayed the most recent version a few posts above. I also should the King and he had more objections. This has been an interesting discussion, allowing me a chance to understand the process.
Quote from: Pôl dal Nordselvă on January 13, 2025, 07:05:10 PMI displayed the most recent version a few posts above. I also should the King and he had more objections. This has been an interesting discussion, allowing me a chance to understand the process.
Heraldry is fascinating. It was one of the first areas I became involved in.
-TR/REH
Quote from: Pôl dal Nordselvă on January 13, 2025, 07:05:10 PMI displayed the most recent version a few posts above. I also should the King and he had more objections. This has been an interesting discussion, allowing me a chance to understand the process.
I think you mean I had no more objections. Looks like a word is missing :-)
-TR/REH
What if we were to include the applicant's surname in the form of canting? Something inspired by, say, the arms of Mullsjö, Sweden as seen in the sidebar here? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_the_field#Lines_of_division) A treeline in chief feels rather apropos of la selvă nordească.
It could create a fairly complex blazon when trying to incorporate it with the applicant's proposal, but I would argue that cat is already out of the bag, no?
- The Long Fellow