Wittenberg

After yet another effectively unheard complaint (https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=4007.0) that his province is becoming a ghost town (https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=3943.0), I really must admit I feel for S:reu Lenxheir. Meanwhile, Florencia is having trouble finding a Governor (https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=3994.0). Atatürk has had posts in exactly two of the topics on their board (https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?board=10.0) in the last two years. In M-M, the Assembly has one member (https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=3904.0) who has claimed a seat for this term so far. Even Fiovă, once fairly active, has seen a tapering off of activity. Belacostă and Maricopa, though neither is truly bustling with activity, appear to lead the pack by default.

Clearly, this is not something that is the issue in any one province. It is a national issue, spurred on by a variety of factors, chief among them that we have spread the active citizenry between too many provinces. So how do we solve that problem? The answer is simple enough on its face: reduce the number of provinces, helping to unite active citizens in a way that spreads the load a bit better between them (which in turn helps them feel less burnt-out).

But how do we go about conducting provincial mergers? After the failed merger of Fiovă and Florencia, there is understandable caution surrounding the prospect of a merger organized "bottom-up"; that is, between the provinces in question with no real oversight from the national level. On the other hand, the idea of "top-down" mergers is generally framed by local officials as edicts from on high meant to overrule any local sentiment. I myself proposed a more collaborative approach, (https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=3762.0) though the idea of a formal Commission seems to garner less support. Consider this, then, an "informal Commission", a public discussion and no more, to try and map out where we can and ought to go.

The first question is what sort of mergers should be considered. For my part, I can only really go along with "honest" mergers -- full mergers of provinces, including territory, population, catchment area, etc., with consideration being given for a balanced adoption of pre-merger provincial symbols for the resulting province. As an example of what I'm not talking about, the only remotely "active" plan for merging provinces (https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=1574.0%5B/url) falls afoul of the Organic Law. It calls for a government shared between two provinces, who otherwise retain their Cunstavals, Senators, and what have you. Unfortunately for them, Org.IX.1 states that provinces "are administered by constitutional governments elected democratically within the Province." [emphasis mine] In such a case, the provincial government would be at least partially elected without the province over which it governs, rendering the whole plan inorganic.

While we're on the topic of Senators, let's talk about them for a second -- the recent discussions for a six-member Senate, elected at large by the nation, (https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=3991.0) would absolutely solve this roadblock, my own preference for a unicameral Ziu set aside for the time being. While several different figures across the Talossan political spectrum have expressed an openness to the idea either openly or behind closed doors, nothing concrete has emerged yet (though I really do hope it will soon).

Back to the topic of mergers, we should also only consider mergers which make sense geographically. The FI-FL proposal failed for several reasons, one of which is the fact that the provinces themselves are not contiguous. There's bordergore, and bordergore, and that would have been the latter. Let's stick to the former where we can.

There is usually some opposition expressed about "unique provincial cultures" and concern about preservation of those being more difficult during a wave of consolidation. Fair enough -- the three identifiable "unique provincial cultures" being the Cjovani of Belacostă, the reviensadeirs of Fiovă, and what one citizen summed up as "Cézembre is the European province". These three should therefore avoid merging with each other, or with provinces that would foreseeably diminish such an identity.

Political structures can also be taken into account. With the adoption of the new Belacostan Constitution, six of the eight provinces use some kind of "citizens' assembly" legislature, so mergers thereof should be fairly straightforward. Provincial executives can be a bit trickier, though as an example the Belacostan Provincial Council does actually have a mechanism (https://wiki.talossa.com/Constitution_of_Belacost%C4%83#Article_III:_The_Provincial_Council) for what happens to another province's executive should that province choose to adopt the BE Constitution outright. These could be considered on a case-by-case basis and local preference, at least.

All of this is to say that, especially focusing on the contiguity criterion, there are at least two "likely" paths forward for the seven provinces in the GTA. (Cézembre, with its more obviously unique chatacter and geography, is left untouched.) Plan A merges Belacostă and Florencia, Fiovă and Maricopa, and Maritiimi-Maxhestic and Vuode. Respectively, this reunites the entirety of pre-1996 Mussolini territory, reunites most of pre-Reunision Maricopa, and puts a more full-throated version of the "Grischun Plan" into effect along the Mar Talossan coastline.

Plan B, on the other hand, results in a map that probably looks a bit "cleaner", but "unites" new provinces, instead of "reuniting" old ones -- Belacostă and Vuode (Edgewood, Kenwood, and North all becoming single boundaries that span the width of the nation), Florencia and Maricopa, and Fiovă and Maritiimi-Maxhestic (this one, at least, does reunite Las Inaltans Maxhestici with M-M).

Obviously, names, constitutions, governmental structures, flags, etc. are all details to be worked out later. I'm just trying to establish a holistic view of what we think we should do to move forward.

I think it would be great to amend the law to make the proposed merger in mm happen. And maybe if that goes well, it could develop further in the future.

You make a good case, and I'm going to work out an amendment to allow for joint provincial governance.

As a Florencian, I would support Plan A as it honors our relationship with Belacosta (the province from which seceded). I am less concerned with what we do about Senatorial representation but am certainly in support of the "postponement" reform mentioned in another thread.

From a cultural perspective, I think Talossans should be allowed to "live" in what ever province they choose.

One of the issues here is that there isn't much to do in the provinces. We tend to spend our time posting either on the main Witt or here in the Chat Room.

I don't know what you're going to do. Thought I'd just chime in.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 21, 2025, 03:23:23 PMI think it would be great to amend the law to make the proposed merger in mm happen. And maybe if that goes well, it could develop further in the future.

You make a good case, and I'm going to work out an amendment to allow for joint provincial governance.

I'm sure if we can cooperate on Senate reform, we can cooperate on this as well, no?

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil, O.Be on April 21, 2025, 06:10:42 PM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 21, 2025, 03:23:23 PMI think it would be great to amend the law to make the proposed merger in mm happen. And maybe if that goes well, it could develop further in the future.

You make a good case, and I'm going to work out an amendment to allow for joint provincial governance.

I'm sure if we can cooperate on Senate reform, we can cooperate on this as well, no?

Definitely not ruling it out!  There's several big changes that have already been proposed, and I'm just not to the point of engaging with all of them.  There's a huge structural change to the Senate that was proposed, and these ideas about provincial mergers, and also your proposal to adjust the nature of Cosa membership.  Thankfully, we're still early in the process, but it's also a fairly busy time right now.  As always, I'll do my best to think through every proposal, its stated goals, and the possible future implications.

Working from old memories here so some of the finer details of the 'Grischun Plan' escape me.

It was an attempt to create a 'unitary authority'.  This meant on a local level the provinces would retain separate and distinct identities, but would have been administered by a single civic authority. Meanwhile, yes, both would have retained their own Constables and Senators.

It was an attempt at finding a middle ground, because at the time there was opposition to abolishing a Senate seat and there were a handful of Organic issues with just going for a full-on merger.

My personal preference has always been a total merger of Vuode and M-M. The abolishment of both for the birth of a new single province.

Needless to say, I am extremely interested in having the conversation and seeing how much progress can be made.

I do not want Maricopa to be merged, but if other provinces want to merge, that's up to them. I will say, Maricopa ceded some cantons to other provinces to support Fiova becoming a province, and so if those provinces merge with others, we want our original territory back.

Quote from: Munditenens Tresplet on April 26, 2025, 09:06:19 AMI do not want Maricopa to be merged, but if other provinces want to merge, that's up to them. I will say, Maricopa ceded some cantons to other provinces to support Fiova becoming a province, and so if those provinces merge with others, we want our original territory back.

Plan A could make this particularly easy -- FI and MA merge, and then that new province and the MM/VD merge swap Vilatx Freiric and Las Inaltans Maxhestici.

I think Provinces should be the ones who decide whether or not to merge and who to merge with. I will advocate for Maricopa to remain as is, not merging with anyone, albeit ideally with our cantons back.

Great work summarising and pointing out the contours of the debate, Mic'haglh.

There are obviously a few concerns going into these proposals, a few angles.

(1) Provincial life is weak and we need more loci of Talossan life, so an obvious way is to do something with the provinces to make them more active. Thus: merge.

(2) A roadblock to this is the Senate's apportionment, but some people want to change Senatorial representation or abolish it.

I'm trying to work out what the necessary, the absolute, and the accidental connections are here. My main thought is that provincial mergers are unlikely to spark much extra provincial life, because the slightly higher concentration of active residents will very likely not touch the essential reasons for Talossan inactivity and over-focus on political snark. My second thought is just a slight sense that all the tree-shaking is primally connected, and my own reaction is to want to back away and leave things be rather than shake all the trees to see what falls out.

Quote from: owenedwards on April 27, 2025, 08:47:57 PMI'm trying to work out what the necessary, the absolute, and the accidental connections are here. My main thought is that provincial mergers are unlikely to spark much extra provincial life, because the slightly higher concentration of active residents will very likely not touch the essential reasons for Talossan inactivity and over-focus on political snark.

This is an important point. The need for greater space for apolitical national service is high and I mean truly apolitical not as activity parallel to their political roles. There are consequences to our high frequency political cycle and I hope we will slow the cycle down through longer terms, etc. so that we are not always in a hyperpolarized frenzy. Whether we like it or not the charged politics of Wittenberg may not be as appealing a space for new Talossan applicants who are less politically inclined.

Quote from: Audrada Roibeardet on April 21, 2025, 05:51:14 PMFrom a cultural perspective, I think Talossans should be allowed to "live" in what ever province they choose.

I kind of like this idea, where we could virtually move to a new province. It could be a way to get some of our sleepier provinces to wake up. Imagine seeing ads for "Move to Maricopa - the Hottest Spot North of Havana" or "Spelling your thing? Move to Maritiimi-Maxhestic!"

-Txec R

Which renders provinces nothing but glorified social clubs. Why bother.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on April 28, 2025, 04:06:40 PMWhich renders provinces nothing but glorified social clubs. Why bother.

You are probably right, but I do love the idea of competing ads from the provinces :-) Perhaps the Ministry of Culture can organize something along these lines for fun.

-Txec R

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on April 28, 2025, 04:06:40 PMWhich renders provinces nothing but glorified social clubs. Why bother.

As opposed to the current situation where most provinces are essentially dead?

Why have provinces at all? Is it just another opportunity to hold public office?

Perhaps something more along the lines of advertisements for tourism rather than relocation...vist beautiful Vuode and see the original Talossa!!!

Look, honestly, once we move to at-large Senäts elections, provinces will be more or less politically irrelevant and I'll be happy to ignore them. But it's worth having a historical look. In Talossan history, pre-the 1997 Organic Law where we got the provincialised Senäts, the whole point of provinces was as Personal Fantasy Fiefdoms for ambitious Talossans, especially those who would never get national power. But in those days every Province would have 5-7 active citizens max so it was easy for a determined lunatic to take over and wage war against the central government, or anyone they didn't like. My favourite example is the history of Vuode:

• in 1986, left-wing Danihél Laurieir takes over and passes a law forcibly renaming the far-right Talossan Nationalist Party as the Homosexual Communist League
• in 1987 and 1992, when non-Ben parties are in power nationally, King Robert takes over Vuode personally and leads an insurgency, extending to actual secession in the latter case
• I believe the Androids/"Davron" also got up to some hijinks in Maritiimi-Maxhestic.
  

None of that fun stuff can happen if people are just moving between provinces, because that means provinces become politically self-sorting. There will be no internal debate because if you don't like it you leave, and if you do like it you immigrate. So whoever's in charge in a province stays that way forever. There's no drama, no seizures of power.Maybe we need *more* provinces, once we're at an At-Large Senäts. Like, encourage cantons to secede or whatever.

No drama? Yeah, that's what we need: MORE DRAMA.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on April 28, 2025, 05:51:10 PMNone of that fun stuff can happen if people are just moving between provinces, because that means provinces become politically self-sorting. There will be no internal debate because if you don't like it you leave, and if you do like it you immigrate.

Yeah, I agree with this.  The outcome will be more insular cliques, not more lively provinces.  It might make the provinces more active, but more likely the primary vector for those cliques will still control, and any activity will be confined to reinforcing their power/beliefs.  One positive would be that it would be more likely for them to be a little more fun with in-jokes, but I think the danger is too great.

You do realize that cliques can form anywhere, right?

(I don't know why I fighting for this. I don't really care either way. DRAMA!)

Sure, and fires can start anywhere... They're just a lot more likely if you decorate with oily rags and kerosene.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 30, 2025, 12:20:49 PMSure, and fires can start anywhere... They're just a lot more likely if you decorate with oily rags and kerosene.

I still like the idea of provinces doing ad campaigns to liven things up. I'm considering ways to get this going.

-Txec R

Quote from: King Txec on April 30, 2025, 02:29:20 PM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 30, 2025, 12:20:49 PMSure, and fires can start anywhere... They're just a lot more likely if you decorate with oily rags and kerosene.

I still like the idea of provinces doing ad campaigns to liven things up. I'm considering ways to get this going.

-Txec R

Yes, that is a great idea, I agree.

I don't know, perhaps we could have a Chinese style hukou (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou) system where no more than 5% of the population are allowed to switch provinces every year

Five percent? So, like, one person a year?

Quote from: Audrada Roibeardet on April 30, 2025, 05:34:41 PMFive percent? So, like, one person a year?

The population of Talossa right now is 132. So, six or seven.