WHEREAS, STUFF has a lot of stuff to do; and
WHEREAS, when one has too much stuff, it makes sense to get rid of some of it, even if you're STUFF; then
BE IT RESOLVED, that the following be enacted:
- Title C, Section 1.8 of El Lexhatx is created to read:
QuoteC.1.8. The Directorate of STUFF, headed by the Director of STUFF, responsible for the production of "physical embodiments of Talossanity", whether for distribution to citizens, to publicise the Kingdom to outsiders, or to sell for profit, at the direction of and in collaboration with the King and the Government.
- Title C, Section 2 of El Lexhatx shall be amended as follows:
QuoteWith the exception of the Secretary of State and the Permanent Secretaries, every Office of the Royal Civil Service shall be assigned to a responsible Minister of the Government as named below, to report and consult concerning the conduct of their office as and when requested, necessary or useful. Officers are not subject to the direction of their responsible Minister except as required by Organic and statutory law. The Scribe of Abbavilla shall be responsible to the Attorney-General, the Royal Archivist to the Minister of Public Records, the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue and the Director of STUFF to the Minister of Finance, and the President of the Royal Society and the Poet Laureate to the Minister of Culture.
- Title D, Section 2.10 of El Lexhatx is replaced in its entirety with the following:
QuoteThe Minister of Propaganda, heading the Ministry of Propaganda (Ministrà dal Propagandă), which shall be responsible for the internal and external promotion of the Kingdom, all events therein and all things Talossan through public relations, and shall dutifully ensure that the Kingdom and its events are regularly publicised and may use any means and media available to them to achieve this. The Ministry of Propaganda shall be directly responsible for the content of one or more websites and/or social media accounts named as the 'official' website(s) and social media account(s) of the Kingdom.
- Title D, Section 2.11 of El Lexhatx is created to read:
QuoteThe Minister of Public Records, heading the Ministry of Public Records (Ministrà dallas Adnalăs Püblici), which shall be responsible for ensuring the availability, for all Talossans, of the following:
2.11.1. The records of the Scribery as described in C.1.3; and
2.11.2. Any other information necessary for or useful to citizens, including but not limited to reports and data about Talossan life and Government activity.
Uréu q'estadra så:
Mic'haglh Autófil (MC-PdR/¡Avant!)
Is it the intent of this bill to create a new cabinet post? Minister of Production?
-Txec R
Quote from: King Txec on June 02, 2025, 11:08:03 AMIs it the intent of this bill to create a new cabinet post? Minister of Production?
-Txec R
That is correct, though the actual title of the post is negotiable. (I just couldn't think of anything that fit better, to be honest.)
Could this be better handled by a permanent secretary (Permanent Secretary for Production?) rather than a new ministry, Mic'haglh? Production of TalossaWare seems like a good area for an apolitical official.
I am leaning more towards Production being a Civil Service (i.e. totally non-political) branch of the State. "Making things" IMHO requires some level of specialisation (or at least being able to get in touch with manufacturers), and it would honestly be good to have all of that in one place.
Incidentally, as I envisage it, Production would make all kinds of things we need - Talossaware, ID cards - but ID cards should no longer be under STUFF. The purpose of STUFF is publicity and information for and about Talossa. The *design and issue* (as opposed to manufacture) of ID cards should, I feel, probably come under Immigration (to be renamed Immigration and Citizenship)?
All this of course assumes that there's someone who could be a Civil Servant who thinks they could have a go at Making Stuff, or at least Ensuring Stuff Gets Made.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on June 02, 2025, 04:23:26 PMI am leaning more towards Production being a Civil Service (i.e. totally non-political) branch of the State. "Making things" IMHO requires some level of specialisation (or at least being able to get in touch with manufacturers), and it would honestly be good to have all of that in one place.
Incidentally, as I envisage it, Production would make all kinds of things we need - Talossaware, ID cards - but ID cards should no longer be under STUFF. The purpose of STUFF is publicity and information for and about Talossa. The *design and issue* (as opposed to manufacture) of ID cards should, I feel, probably come under Immigration (to be renamed Immigration and Citizenship)?
Agreed.
I have no problem with most of the proposed arrangements -- I defer to the Government's opinion on how they best want to manage things. But I would strongly urge you not to add anything to Immigration beyond its existing duties. It makes more sense to me to have one person be in charge of physical stuff generally, including supervising ID cards and TalossaWare (which, btw, already exists and can be promoted/managed/changed/improved by accessing our Shopify store -- you guys have the credentials to log-in).
It might also make sense at this time to consider changing the name of MinSTUFF. It's a backronym created because a past government just wanted to make someone responsible for doing miscellaneous things, and then it's sort of morphed into the weird role that it currently is. Maybe it's time to make a Minister of Stuff (as in, producing things like TalossaWare and ID cards) and a Minister for Across the River (website and social media)?
Cosalïă is Talossan for stuff in a physical sense. Transfiovă would be "across the river" -- ultra-fiovă is a bad translation chosen because it begins with a U.
I for one am glad we're increasing the number of portfolios rather than axing them. It may be counterintuitive, but it adds way more flexibility to deal with fluctuating activity levels and managing individual ministers's workload.
Quote from: Sir Lüc on June 03, 2025, 08:34:55 AMI for one am glad we're increasing the number of portfolios rather than axing them. It may be counterintuitive, but it adds way more flexibility to deal with fluctuating activity levels and managing individual ministers's workload.
Assuming you can find an extra Cabinet minister, and you're not just chopping one hat into two
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on June 03, 2025, 07:21:04 AMI would strongly urge you not to add anything to Immigration beyond its existing duties.
Here's something a lot of people don't know - by law, MinImmigration deals *only* with the actual immigration process. Publicising Talossa to potential new immigrants comes under STUFF.
QuoteIt might also make sense at this time to consider changing the name of MinSTUFF. It's a backronym created because a past government just wanted to make someone responsible for doing miscellaneous things
As far as I can tell, "Minister of Stuff" was originally a pointless title that King Robert I gave to his father. Later it became synonymous with "Minister of Finance" (i.e. Harry Madison gave his kid pocket money). It already meant something different from that when I started in 1997. I think it's one of those quirky traditions that bears keeping.
QuoteMaybe it's time to make a Minister of Stuff (as in, producing things like TalossaWare and ID cards) and a Minister for Across the River (website and social media)?
I *like* it, but for continuity purposes, actually making
Stuff should be a civil service job.
My own personal opinion is that dividing the duties between Ministries makes the work more manageable; a clearer division of responsibility and/or a lighter workload can help make it easier to move forward on a given task. (If you've ever had too many chores to do and that kept you from starting any of them, you know what I mean.)
I will defer to the Minister of STUFF on this one (paging
@Bråneu Excelsio, UrN ). If he believes it makes sense to keep both major functions ("make Talossan artifacts" and "publish Talossan information") under the direction of the STUFF Ministry while still delegating production to a Permanent Secretary, then I will delete Item 3 from the proposal (and modify Item 4 to retain Lex.D.2.10.2). That would accomplish the same overall goal I had with this bill.
I would, however, argue that the two sections of D.2.10.3 still deserve to be spun off to the Justice Ministry and Prime Ministry, respectively -- especially since the latter would appear to already be synonymous with the Seneschal's List (https://wiki.talossa.com/The_Senesch%C3%A1l%27s_List). As a result, whether in the current form or a truncated one, I intend to move forward with
some version of this bill once we have a verdict on which path to take.
Personally, I don't think putting anything ID card-related under the Immigration Portfolio makes much sense given the arrangement of the rest of the Government's duties.
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil, O.Be on June 03, 2025, 10:09:00 PMPersonally, I don't think putting anything ID card-related under the Immigration Portfolio makes much sense given the arrangement of the rest of the Government's duties.
Which current portfolio
do you think is appropriate for designing ID cards and issuing them to citizens? I'm actually leaning back towards Culture, if only because right now they're contingent on the Citizenship Test
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on June 04, 2025, 12:58:23 AMQuote from: Mic'haglh Autófil, O.Be on June 03, 2025, 10:09:00 PMPersonally, I don't think putting anything ID card-related under the Immigration Portfolio makes much sense given the arrangement of the rest of the Government's duties.
Which current portfolio do you think is appropriate for designing ID cards and issuing them to citizens? I'm actually leaning back towards Culture, if only because right now they're contingent on the Citizenship Test
If we aim to avoid creating another portfolio, I would have said STUFF is still the best fit, though I will also agree your point about Culture is a good one.
Okay, I think I've figured it out.
The Ministry of STUFF to be reconfigured to be about "making stuff"- "the design and production of "physical embodiments of Talossanity", whether for distribution to citizens, to publicise the Kingdom to outsiders, or to sell for profit." (I prefer a PermSec to be in charge of actually making the stuff.)
A Ministry of Propaganda to be set up for "for the internal and external promotion of the Kingdom, all events therein and all things Talossan through public relations, and shall dutifully ensure that the Kingdom and its events are regularly publicised and may use any means and media available to them to achieve this. The Ministry of Propaganda shall be directly responsible for the content of one or more websites and/or social media accounts named as the 'official' website(s) and social media account(s) of the Kingdom."
A Ministry of Information to take on ensuring the availability, for all Talossans, of "information necessary for or useful to citizenship". This would mean, in concrete terms right now, La C'hronica and Infoteca.
I still think that the test taken to authorise ID cards should come under "Culture".
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on June 04, 2025, 04:51:06 PMOkay, I think I've figured it out.
The Ministry of STUFF to be reconfigured to be about "making stuff"- "the design and production of "physical embodiments of Talossanity", whether for distribution to citizens, to publicise the Kingdom to outsiders, or to sell for profit." (I prefer a PermSec to be in charge of actually making the stuff.)
A Ministry of Propaganda to be set up for "for the internal and external promotion of the Kingdom, all events therein and all things Talossan through public relations, and shall dutifully ensure that the Kingdom and its events are regularly publicised and may use any means and media available to them to achieve this. The Ministry of Propaganda shall be directly responsible for the content of one or more websites and/or social media accounts named as the 'official' website(s) and social media account(s) of the Kingdom."
A Ministry of Information to take on ensuring the availability, for all Talossans, of "information necessary for or useful to citizenship". This would mean, in concrete terms right now, La C'hronica and Infoteca.
I still think that the test taken to authorise ID cards should come under "Culture".
So we are going the route of creating more ministries rather than using the Civil Service? This seems like a change from the election message from Avant...
Quick note that the Royal Household, which is cited in the first amending clause, has essentially been superseded by the Royal Civil Service.
Otherwise I think the tripartition proposed by Miestra is a good starting point.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on June 03, 2025, 07:02:53 PMQuote from: Sir Lüc on June 03, 2025, 08:34:55 AMI for one am glad we're increasing the number of portfolios rather than axing them. It may be counterintuitive, but it adds way more flexibility to deal with fluctuating activity levels and managing individual ministers's workload.
Assuming you can find an extra Cabinet minister, and you're not just chopping one hat into two
I do not disagree but that's a separate issue. If anything, more modular ministries could help finding extra appointees, as you could hand out smaller jobs with fewer duties. In your own example, the new MinInfo would have two main tasks, each to be performed once per month, and the latter of which usually takes just a few minutes to do.
Right. So here's how the Tripartite Division might work,
if we go back to the "expanding the Civil Service" ideology.
So add to Title C:
QuoteC.1.8. The Directorate of STUFF, headed by the Director of STUFF, responsible for the production of "physical embodiments of Talossanity", whether for distribution to citizens, to publicise the Kingdom to outsiders, or to sell for profit, at the direction of and in collaboration with the King or the Government.
QUESTION: right now the Royal Bank and Post is in charge of making stamps and coins. Should we move the *manufacture* of these to the Directorate of STUFF, leading RB&P in charge of design?
Amend Title D section 2.10 as follows:
Quote2.10 The Minister of STUFF Propaganda, heading the Ministry of STUFF (Ministrà del Sanavar da Talossa al Ultra-Fiôvân Folâs) Propaganda, which shall be responsible for the internal and external promotion of the Kingdom, all events therein and all things Talossan through public relations, and shall dutifully ensure that the Kingdom and its events are regularly publicised and may use any means and media available to them to achieve this. [331]
2.10.1 The Minister of STUFF Propaganda shall be directly responsible for the content of one or more websites and/or social media accounts named as the 'official' website(s) and social media account(s) of the Kingdom. [332]
2.10.2. The Ministry of STUFF shall be in charge of TalossaWare, that is, the production of "physical embodiments of Talossanity", whether for distribution to citizens, to publicise the Kingdom to outsiders, or to sell for profit. [333]
2.10.3 The Ministry of STUFF shall be responsible for ensuring the availability, for all Talossans, of the following:
a) the records of the Scribery as described in C.1.2[r 8] ;
b) up-to-date information on the personnel of all Government, Royal Household, Civil Service and Chancery office-holders.
New subsection 2.11:
Quote2.11 The Minister of Information, heading the Minister of Information, which shall be responsible for ensuring the availability, for all Talossans, of the following:
a) the records of the Scribery as described in C.1.2[r 8] ;
b) up-to-date information on the personnel of all Government, Royal Household, Civil Service and Chancery office-holders;
c) any other information necessary for or useful to citizens, including but not limited to reports and data about Talossan life and Government activity.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on June 15, 2025, 07:16:02 PMRight. So here's how the Tripartite Division might work, if we go back to the "expanding the Civil Service" ideology.
So add to Title C:
QuoteC.1.8. The Directorate of STUFF, headed by the Director of STUFF, responsible for the production of "physical embodiments of Talossanity", whether for distribution to citizens, to publicise the Kingdom to outsiders, or to sell for profit, at the direction of and in collaboration with the King or the Government.
QUESTION: right now the Royal Bank and Post is in charge of making stamps and coins. Should we move the *manufacture* of these to the Directorate of STUFF, leading RB&P in charge of design?
I have amended the OP text of the bill to include this change as Provision 1, though I did change it to "in collaboration with the King
and the Government". I think it's fair to say that the RB&P (headed by the Finance Minister by default) has the discretion to task the Directorate of STUFF with stamp and coin production, since that would be "at the direction of...the Government". Provision 2 helps streamline this somewhat, since it states that the Director of STUFF reports to the Finance Minister; since the Ministries of Propaganda and Information both deal with other issues, it seems to me that the logical Ministry overseeing the STUFF Directorate would be the one that could be selling its products.
QuoteAmend Title D section 2.10 as follows:
Quote2.10 The Minister of STUFF Propaganda, heading the Ministry of STUFF (Ministrà del Sanavar da Talossa al Ultra-Fiôvân Folâs) Propaganda, which shall be responsible for the internal and external promotion of the Kingdom, all events therein and all things Talossan through public relations, and shall dutifully ensure that the Kingdom and its events are regularly publicised and may use any means and media available to them to achieve this. [331]
2.10.1 The Minister of STUFF Propaganda shall be directly responsible for the content of one or more websites and/or social media accounts named as the 'official' website(s) and social media account(s) of the Kingdom. [332]
2.10.2. The Ministry of STUFF shall be in charge of TalossaWare, that is, the production of "physical embodiments of Talossanity", whether for distribution to citizens, to publicise the Kingdom to outsiders, or to sell for profit. [333]
2.10.3 The Ministry of STUFF shall be responsible for ensuring the availability, for all Talossans, of the following:
a) the records of the Scribery as described in C.1.2[r 8] ;
b) up-to-date information on the personnel of all Government, Royal Household, Civil Service and Chancery office-holders.
Done as Provision 3.
QuoteNew subsection 2.11:
Quote2.11 The Minister of Information, heading the Minister of Information, which shall be responsible for ensuring the availability, for all Talossans, of the following:
a) the records of the Scribery as described in C.1.2[r 8] ;
b) up-to-date information on the personnel of all Government, Royal Household, Civil Service and Chancery office-holders;
c) any other information necessary for or useful to citizens, including but not limited to reports and data about Talossan life and Government activity.
I have inserted this as Provision 4, with one exception -- I removed your D.2.11(b), since it would appear to overlap the already-in-force Lexh.D.1.5. (This is the case with the current D.2.10.3(a) as well.)
To which Government Ministry should the Director of STUFF be responsible under El Lexhatx C.2?
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on June 24, 2025, 05:23:35 PMTo which Government Ministry should the Director of STUFF be responsible under El Lexhatx C.2?
Provision 2 already adds the Director of STUFF under the Ministry of Finance, as I felt that made the most sense for a position involved in producing things we may intend to sell; the STUFF Ministry would be divided into two, neither of which retain oversight over making things, so I felt the Finance Ministry would be the best fit of pre-existing portfolios.
(Unless of course this was a question you were posing to the thread to see if anyone had other suggestions?)
@Sir Lüc Mr. Secretary, please move this bill to the CRL.
Done!
Seems fine in form and function, and I vote to approve.
The proposed modification of Title C, Section 2 of El Lexhatx
QuoteWith the exception of the Secretary of State and the Permanent Secretaries, every Office of the Royal Civil Service shall be assigned to a responsible Minister of the Government as named below, to report and consult concerning the conduct of their office as and when requested, necessary or useful. Officers are not subject to the direction of their responsible Minister except as required by Organic and statutory law. The Scribe of Abbavilla shall be responsible to the Attorney-General, the Royal Archivist to the STUFF Minister, the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue and the Director of STUFF to the Minister of Finance, and the President of the Royal Society and the Poet Laureate to the Minister of Culture.
should be corrected as
QuoteWith the exception of the Secretary of State and the Permanent Secretaries, every Office of the Royal Civil Service shall be assigned to a responsible Minister of the Government as named below, to report and consult concerning the conduct of their office as and when requested, necessary or useful. Officers are not subject to the direction of their responsible Minister except as required by Organic and statutory law. The Scribe of Abbavilla shall be responsible to the Attorney-General, the Royal Archivist to the Minister of Public Records, the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue and the Director of STUFF to the Minister of Finance, and the President of the Royal Society and the Poet Laureate to the Minister of Culture.
and the Title D, Section 2.11 of El Lexhatx newly created
QuoteThe Minister of Public Records, heading the Ministry of Public Records (Ministrà dallas Adnalăs Püblici), which shall be responsible for ensuring the availability, for all Talossans, of the following:
2.11.1. The records of the Scribery as described in C.1.2; and
2.11.2. Any other information necessary for or useful to citizens, including but not limited to reports and data about Talossan life and Government activity.
should be corrected as
QuoteThe Minister of Public Records, heading the Ministry of Public Records (Ministrà dallas Adnalăs Püblici), which shall be responsible for ensuring the availability, for all Talossans, of the following:
2.11.1. The records of the Scribery as described in C.1.3; and
2.11.2. Any other information necessary for or useful to citizens, including but not limited to reports and data about Talossan life and Government activity.
Quote from: þerxh Sant-Enogat on July 31, 2025, 04:04:42 AMThe proposed modification of Title C, Section 2 of El Lexhatx should be corrected asand the Title D, Section 2.11 of El Lexhatx newly created should be corrected as
Both good catches, changes made.
The changes seem appropriate and has my support. Thanks once again for all the hard work!