WHEREAS there has come before the Kingdom of Talossa an opportunity for mutual respect and recognition with another micronation; and
WHEREAS the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, working together with the King, have found the people and government of Carcosa to be lively and worth our notice; and
WHEREAS it is an express wish of the King that Talossa establish relations with nations of worth;
BE it resolved therefore by the King, Cosa, and Senäts assembled that the Treaty between The Kingdoms of Talossa and Carcosa shall be ratified.
Uréu q'estadra så:
Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir (Minister of Foreign Affairs/Senator ¡Avant!)
Txec Regeu (King of Talossa)
Mic'haglh Autófil (Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs/MC ¡Avant!)
QuoteTreaty Between The Kingdoms of Talossa and Carcosa
"Be is resolved by our joint respective governments, that The Kingdom of Talossa and the Kingdom of Carcosa by ratification in our respective governments do hereby declare in this joint treaty:-
1. The kingdoms of Talossa and Carcosa (from now on referred to as Talossa and Carcosa respectively) do formally recognise each others sovereignty for as long as our respective governments consent
2. Each nation of Talossa and Carcosa shall set up "Embassies" and appoint ambassadors to represent our nations, and to create a point of contact for each nation. Whilst formally maintaining diplomatic relations
3. Talossa and Carcosa shall look into mutual projects and cooperation on a case by case basis, and shall present such agreements to our respective governments approval
Be it resolved that this is ratified upon passage of both our respective governments.
Signed on behalf of Talossa by:-
His Majesty King Txec of Talossa
Txec R
Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir
Minister of Foreign Affairs of Talossa
On behalf of Carcosa:-
Hastyr Aldebaran
His Majesty the King in Yellow of Carcosa
Cormac KT
Secretary of State of Carcosa"
Should the Ziu ratify this treaty, and Carcosa's government does the same, the treaty shall come into force.
[Disclaimer] Whilst I disagree with the legal need for this to be hoppered, The SoS disagrees so in this instance I will go along with what is asked to not delay the ratification, but will look into working with the SoS to clear things up for future cases. [end of disclaimer]
I strongly object to recognizing Carcosa and agreeing to work on mutual projects. We know barely anything about them. I mean, it seems that they have centered a lot of their national culture around the Chambers' book The King in Yellow: the name of their group, their sovereign, their symbol, their currency, their name of their capital, their song, and so on. Do we know why that is, yet? Do we know who is in Carcosa? Their public face is their Discord, but this is also apparently relatively inactive. Do they actually live on their territory?
Even if this were to be a good idea someday, we shouldn't eagerly associate ourselves with people without knowing more about them.
We have had many conversations with them while discussing diplomacy. I fail to see how recognizing them is an issue, and they have some really interesting ideas for joint projects like artistic or sporting competitions. Yes, they do actually live on the land they claim, so much of their actual "talk" is face to face. Discord is more for outreach. I'm not sure why they have the themes they do, but then again can anyone fully explain why King Ben made many of his early choices either? Is that really a basis to judge them? If Talossa wishes to not ratify the treaty, that is up to the Ziu. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has done some extraordinary work here in establishing contact with an outside kingdom that is definitely quirky, but isn't every micronation?
-Txec R
Just to be clear, I'm not criticizing them with these questions... it's just that I didn't know any of the answers to them! And if we're making a formal treaty recognizing them and pledging to work with them and so on, then I think MZs should probably know more about them. It's great that you do! I don't.
What are some of their interesting ideas for joint projects? Could they interact with us in some way and tell us about them?
They're a small community that lives on their territory -- where is that territory? How many people?
I'm not "judging" them for loving The King in Yellow so much, since I do, also. I think the Lovecraftian tradition into which Chambers' book is often classified is very interesting, even if a lot of the racism is hard to get past. So I'm not against the book at all. But you have to admit that it's unusual to align so much with these things, and I'd be pretty curious to know why this is their central theme.
So I guess what I'm saying is that I just feel like I know very little about Carcosa. Until I feel like I have some idea of their country beyond "they are some people who live somewhere and love this one book a lot," I'm reticent to formally pledge for Talossa to work with them.
Here's a concern: there's no names. Hastyr Aldebaran is an assumed name (again, taken from the book) and the other name on this treaty has initials. Their website doesn't say anything about anyone else. It's almost entirely about their form of government, but who is the "Mandator," who is in their four (!) houses of legislature, who is on their Supreme Court, who is in the "Yellow Reserve," etc?
Well we can hardly fault them for assumed names as we all use them also. I'll ask them in our Discord chat to visit the Landing Pier and I'll post your questions there as I'm not sure if they can see this thread or not.
-Txec R
I don't fault them for using assumed names, but my concern is that this is really two or three people, and that most of their group and plans are otherwise theoretical. Like... maybe they have a lot of ideas for how things could be run, but that basically none of this stuff really happens. It's possible that they have a Supreme Court with people who have been appointed to it and who have heard cases, or a Yellow Reserve that does their bureaucratic tasks, etc... but right now I'd guess that it's more of an hypothetical plan for what could happen someday, rather than anything that's really happening.
On the other hand, maybe all of this is happening, but entirely offline. More like Talossa in the eighties and early nineties, in other words. In which case... how are we going to do anything with them?
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on June 06, 2025, 09:58:24 AMI don't fault them for using assumed names, but my concern is that this is really two or three people, and that most of their group and plans are otherwise theoretical. Like... maybe they have a lot of ideas for how things could be run, but that basically none of this stuff really happens. It's possible that they have a Supreme Court with people who have been appointed to it and who have heard cases, or a Yellow Reserve that does their bureaucratic tasks, etc... but right now I'd guess that it's more of an hypothetical plan for what could happen someday, rather than anything that's really happening.
On the other hand, maybe all of this is happening, but entirely offline. More like Talossa in the eighties and early nineties, in other words. In which case... how are we going to do anything with them?
The work of the Foreign Minister on this is commendable and I certainly support Talossa increasing its intermicronational relations. But, I agree, with Alexandreu that Carcosa is still too much of an unknown to warrant the establishment of diplomatic relations. I've reviewed their website and even sent a message. If this were Sealand, Westarctica, Molossia or Ladonia then there would be a wealth of information to review and base a decision on. I presently can't support this treaty.
If I may, I think that adopting this treaty would be a great learning experience for Talossa. We are fairly new to having relations witb micronations, and honestly we do have issues with activity ourselves.
I believe we need to proceed with ratifying this, under the assumption that, it will help us to gauge what we are prepared for as a nation. And that we can help prepare for relations with larger and better known micronations one day. But right now we don't know what we may need or how that might go. So I believe this is a good way to test our current capabilities and help us to prepare for future relations.
Yes this may end up failing, but in that case there is nothing to stop the Ziu from revoking the treaty and the recognition in the future. However that is on the assumption of things failing.
We have had a proposal from them to discuss a specific joint venture already, although those details will be discussed and disclosed later if this is ratified.
Indications so far is that they are interested and are responding to people here, if a bit delayed. And are committed to making this work. As I believe we would should this be ratified.
It is a risk and an unknown, yes, but that will always be the case with international treaties so it's better to learn and make mistakes now with a smaller nation than later with a larger more well known one
There are specific proposals for joint activities, but you won't tell us until after we've already voted?!
I don't understand the secrecy here. Finding out information about these people has been like pulling teeth, and I have no idea why.
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on June 12, 2025, 04:16:25 PMI don't understand the secrecy here. Finding out information about these people has been like pulling teeth, and I have no idea why.
As usual the Baron said this better than I did in a now-locked terpelaziun.
I don't think it's a secret, I just don't think we've had time to bring it forward yet. They proposed a joint space agency as one idea. Another idea that hasn't been fleshed out was joint athletic competitions. I also proposed that during our next TCAT they could possibly participate.
-Txec R
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on June 12, 2025, 04:16:25 PMThere are specific proposals for joint activities, but you won't tell us until after we've already voted?!
I don't understand the secrecy here. Finding out information about these people has been like pulling teeth, and I have no idea why.
The proposals are in too early stages to be made public, and need to discuss things with Carcosa and internally with cabinet before making any announcement, and until the treaty is ratified or rejected, no future discussions will be held on our end in the projects. It's not a fact of keeping it secret per se but it is more about being careful as it's better to present a completed proposal than a half baked idea to the Ziu and our people.
With getting information from them, I understand and share your frustrations there. But I hope that they respond satisfactory before this goes up for a vote.
Although I still think my earlier points make sense from a logistical stand point for the foreign ministry.
Quote from: Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on June 12, 2025, 04:24:41 PMThe proposals are in too early stages to be made public, and need to discuss things with Carcosa and internally with cabinet before making any announcement, and until the treaty is ratified or rejected, no future discussions will be held on our end in the projects.
Quote from: King Txec on June 12, 2025, 04:24:27 PMI don't think it's a secret, I just don't think we've had time to bring it forward yet. They proposed a joint space agency as one idea. Another idea that hasn't been fleshed out was joint athletic competitions. I also proposed that during our next TCAT they could possibly participate.
Are the King and Ministry cooperating on these initiatives? Or are we talking about two different sets of initiatives? One too early to announce and secret and another from the King?
I take my role as chief diplomat seriously and both myself, the Minister and Deputy Minister are involved in the talks with the King of Carcosa and his chief ministers. I am the one who initiated contact. When I acceded I was asked by the Seneschal to embark on a good will tour of other nations and so that is what I've done. Carcosa, however, contacted me first. I reached out, and here we are.
There is nothing secret except that during diplomatic negotiations, not everything is public. Frankly, they had some really zany ideas and some good ones. I think both sides are eager and perhaps I am over-eager here. I would love to see this succeed, but it's not nefarious. No one here really has any experience in diplomacy so I think we are being extra careful not to screw things up.
-Txec R
Quote from: King Txec on June 12, 2025, 04:34:13 PMThere is nothing secret except that during diplomatic negotiations, not everything is public. Frankly, they had some really zany ideas and some good ones. I think both sides are eager and perhaps I am over-eager here. I would love to see this succeed, but it's not nefarious. No one here really has any experience in diplomacy so I think we are being extra careful not to screw things up.
Minister Somelieir, I look forward to knowing more about these joint projects if they are not secret as the King states. I, for one, do not have enough information as was expressed in a terpelaziun and here now, to vote in support of this treaty.
I don't think there's anything nefarious here, and I love the enthusiasm. I am just skeptical.
I hope it doesn't seem like I'm being unreasonable. I'm worried about a very specific and common phenomenon we saw before and see frequently in these situations: two or three particularly enthusiastic people come up with a whole scheme for micronation, perhaps centered around a specific gimmick, and then puff up their efforts to sound like something a little bigger. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that! In fact, that sounds a lot like our earliest history. But I'm not sure it would actually bring a lot to the table for us.
If this was the case, then that would explain why they have digital citizens but also a very quiet digital presence. It would also explain their seeming reluctance to answer questions about some basic stuff about themselves, or disclose it anywhere else. And it would also explain why they have so much centered around one piece of fiction.
Also, to be frank, they don't really seem to care about this very much!
I will also say, the king and we are working on this. I would rather the ideas not have been mentioned, but they are the same proposals I was thinking of when I made my earlier comments.
And as the king said, we are just being extra careful in our approach for both our reputation on the world stage, and to put forward proposals that we can back as a ministry and nation, instead of presenting half baked ideas to the nation which is not good for the credibility of ministry of foreign affairs or Talossa in general. And can make the ministry look foolish, announcing something ahead of time, when it isn't ready.
Also as I said earlier there is more than jsut this specific nation of Carossa to consider with thinking to accept this treaty. Which I have noticed that neither you or AD have mentioned or responded too.
Quote from: Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on June 12, 2025, 04:41:40 PMAlso as I said earlier there is more than jsut this specific nation of Carossa to consider with thinking to accept this treaty. Which I have noticed that neither you or AD have mentioned or responded too.
Minister Somelieir,
I look forward to knowing more about these joint projects if they are not secret as the King states. I, for one, do not have enough information as was expressed in a terpelaziun and here now, to vote in support of this treaty. [Restating should it be necessary]
Quote from: Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on June 12, 2025, 04:41:40 PMAnd as the king said, we are just being extra careful in our approach for both our reputation on the world stage, and to put forward proposals that we can back as a ministry and nation, instead of presenting half baked ideas to the nation which is not good for the credibility of ministry of foreign affairs or Talossa in general.
The treaty you are asking us to ratify mentions these projects. I don't think it's crazy to ask what you mean.
Quote from: Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on June 12, 2025, 04:41:40 PMAlso as I said earlier there is more than jsut this specific nation of Carossa to consider with thinking to accept this treaty. Which I have noticed that neither you or AD have mentioned or responded too.
I'm not sure it's a good idea to ratify a treaty just so we have practice ratifying treaties.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on June 12, 2025, 04:43:24 PMQuote from: Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on June 12, 2025, 04:41:40 PMAlso as I said earlier there is more than jsut this specific nation of Carossa to consider with thinking to accept this treaty. Which I have noticed that neither you or AD have mentioned or responded too.
Minister Somelieir, I look forward to knowing more about these joint projects if they are not secret as the King states. I, for one, do not have enough information as was expressed in a terpelaziun and here now, to vote in support of this treaty. [Restating should it be necessary]
I have already stated that I would rather the king not have mentioned the specific projects yet.
Also you seem so concerned about the ministry's position on not announcing thing before they are ready, which I am perfectly entitled to do by law, as was stated in the terp post you mentioned earlier.
And it isn't like you have refuted the reasons I have given to not announce things yet (for credibility of and for the sake of Talossa and trust in out nation from the international community). Can I ask you, what is the issue you have with this? It just sounds like you're throwing a tantrum for not being a part of the discussions and are refusing to listen to reason. And keep on making the same tired points without offering anything new.
Also, I made a whole post about other benefits to the internal infrastructure of Talossa and this as a good trial case for our nation which was just ignored. And is revelevant to the discussion of this treaty, in a broader sense.
Quote from: King Txec on June 06, 2025, 09:47:57 AMWell we can hardly fault them for assumed names as we all use them also.
With respect your Majesty, no we don't. Most of us (not all) use Talossan-language translations of our real names. Proinsias de Rossa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proinsias_De_Rossa), whose name on his birth certificate was Frank Ross, was *not* using an assumed name.
This is kind of a point of honour for me, as I consider it one of the distinguishing features of Talossa from an RPG.
I will state this clearly, as it may have been missed, although ideas have been mentioned, I have stated that until the treaty has been ratified (should it be) we won't be discussing said proposals. Only should this be ratified will we discuss them in any detail.
I understand your frustration, because you must have put a great deal of time and effort into this already. And you certainly aren't obligated by law to disclose anything. I don't even care that much about the secret plans, except for how strange it is that mentioning them might be a problem.
Instead, my concerns mostly have to do with the specific country you are asking us to formally form a bond with. If you're unwilling to investigate or address my concerns, that's fine, but I will vote against your proposal.
I am still interested and I still hope for more information.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on June 12, 2025, 05:09:58 PMQuote from: King Txec on June 06, 2025, 09:47:57 AMWell we can hardly fault them for assumed names as we all use them also.
With respect your Majesty, no we don't. Most of us (not all) use Talossan-language translations of our real names. Proinsias de Rossa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proinsias_De_Rossa), whose name on his birth certificate was Frank Ross, was *not* using an assumed name.
This is kind of a point of honour for me, as I consider it one of the distinguishing features of Talossa from an RPG.
Yes, that was what I ineloquently was trying to say.
-Txec R
When this treaty was proposed, I thought Carcosa was very likely to be legit. After all, His Majesty said he'd had conversations with multiple people, the Government was putting their weight behind the relationship, and people usually are who they appear to be.
But after noticing how much of their culture revolved around a single weird text, how they had very little online presence that didn't heavily emphasize their system of government, how no names were used at any point anywhere, and how cagey they were being, I thought that all of this made them seem pretty sketchy. Still probably legit (thanks, Bayes' Theorem!) but I got suspicious enough to ask questions.
Now it's been a week with some pretty basic questions hanging out there. It's more evidence that either they're not on the level or that they just don't care even a little about this treaty.