WHEREAS there has come before the Kingdom of Talossa an opportunity for mutual respect and recognition with another micronation; and
WHEREAS the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, working together with the King, have found the people and government of Carcosa to be lively and worth our notice; and
WHEREAS it is an express wish of the King that Talossa establish relations with nations of worth;
BE it resolved therefore by the King, Cosa, and Senäts assembled that the Treaty between The Kingdoms of Talossa and Carcosa shall be ratified.
Uréu q'estadra så:
Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir (Minister of Foreign Affairs/Senator ¡Avant!)
Txec Regeu (King of Talossa)
Mic'haglh Autófil (Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs/MC ¡Avant!)
QuoteTreaty Between The Kingdoms of Talossa and Carcosa
"Be is resolved by our joint respective governments, that The Kingdom of Talossa and the Kingdom of Carcosa by ratification in our respective governments do hereby declare in this joint treaty:-
1. The kingdoms of Talossa and Carcosa (from now on referred to as Talossa and Carcosa respectively) do formally recognise each others sovereignty for as long as our respective governments consent
2. Each nation of Talossa and Carcosa shall set up "Embassies" and appoint ambassadors to represent our nations, and to create a point of contact for each nation. Whilst formally maintaining diplomatic relations
3. Talossa and Carcosa shall look into mutual projects and cooperation on a case by case basis, and shall present such agreements to our respective governments approval
Be it resolved that this is ratified upon passage of both our respective governments.
Signed on behalf of Talossa by:-
His Majesty King Txec of Talossa
Txec R
Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir
Minister of Foreign Affairs of Talossa
On behalf of Carcosa:-
Hastyr Aldebaran
His Majesty the King in Yellow of Carcosa
Cormac KT
Secretary of State of Carcosa"
Should the Ziu ratify this treaty, and Carcosa's government does the same, the treaty shall come into force.
[Disclaimer] Whilst I disagree with the legal need for this to be hoppered, The SoS disagrees so in this instance I will go along with what is asked to not delay the ratification, but will look into working with the SoS to clear things up for future cases. [end of disclaimer]
I strongly object to recognizing Carcosa and agreeing to work on mutual projects. We know barely anything about them. I mean, it seems that they have centered a lot of their national culture around the Chambers' book The King in Yellow: the name of their group, their sovereign, their symbol, their currency, their name of their capital, their song, and so on. Do we know why that is, yet? Do we know who is in Carcosa? Their public face is their Discord, but this is also apparently relatively inactive. Do they actually live on their territory?
Even if this were to be a good idea someday, we shouldn't eagerly associate ourselves with people without knowing more about them.
We have had many conversations with them while discussing diplomacy. I fail to see how recognizing them is an issue, and they have some really interesting ideas for joint projects like artistic or sporting competitions. Yes, they do actually live on the land they claim, so much of their actual "talk" is face to face. Discord is more for outreach. I'm not sure why they have the themes they do, but then again can anyone fully explain why King Ben made many of his early choices either? Is that really a basis to judge them? If Talossa wishes to not ratify the treaty, that is up to the Ziu. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has done some extraordinary work here in establishing contact with an outside kingdom that is definitely quirky, but isn't every micronation?
-Txec R
Just to be clear, I'm not criticizing them with these questions... it's just that I didn't know any of the answers to them! And if we're making a formal treaty recognizing them and pledging to work with them and so on, then I think MZs should probably know more about them. It's great that you do! I don't.
What are some of their interesting ideas for joint projects? Could they interact with us in some way and tell us about them?
They're a small community that lives on their territory -- where is that territory? How many people?
I'm not "judging" them for loving The King in Yellow so much, since I do, also. I think the Lovecraftian tradition into which Chambers' book is often classified is very interesting, even if a lot of the racism is hard to get past. So I'm not against the book at all. But you have to admit that it's unusual to align so much with these things, and I'd be pretty curious to know why this is their central theme.
So I guess what I'm saying is that I just feel like I know very little about Carcosa. Until I feel like I have some idea of their country beyond "they are some people who live somewhere and love this one book a lot," I'm reticent to formally pledge for Talossa to work with them.
Here's a concern: there's no names. Hastyr Aldebaran is an assumed name (again, taken from the book) and the other name on this treaty has initials. Their website doesn't say anything about anyone else. It's almost entirely about their form of government, but who is the "Mandator," who is in their four (!) houses of legislature, who is on their Supreme Court, who is in the "Yellow Reserve," etc?
Well we can hardly fault them for assumed names as we all use them also. I'll ask them in our Discord chat to visit the Landing Pier and I'll post your questions there as I'm not sure if they can see this thread or not.
-Txec R
I don't fault them for using assumed names, but my concern is that this is really two or three people, and that most of their group and plans are otherwise theoretical. Like... maybe they have a lot of ideas for how things could be run, but that basically none of this stuff really happens. It's possible that they have a Supreme Court with people who have been appointed to it and who have heard cases, or a Yellow Reserve that does their bureaucratic tasks, etc... but right now I'd guess that it's more of an hypothetical plan for what could happen someday, rather than anything that's really happening.
On the other hand, maybe all of this is happening, but entirely offline. More like Talossa in the eighties and early nineties, in other words. In which case... how are we going to do anything with them?
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on Yesterday at 09:58:24 AMI don't fault them for using assumed names, but my concern is that this is really two or three people, and that most of their group and plans are otherwise theoretical. Like... maybe they have a lot of ideas for how things could be run, but that basically none of this stuff really happens. It's possible that they have a Supreme Court with people who have been appointed to it and who have heard cases, or a Yellow Reserve that does their bureaucratic tasks, etc... but right now I'd guess that it's more of an hypothetical plan for what could happen someday, rather than anything that's really happening.
On the other hand, maybe all of this is happening, but entirely offline. More like Talossa in the eighties and early nineties, in other words. In which case... how are we going to do anything with them?
The work of the Foreign Minister on this is commendable and I certainly support Talossa increasing its intermicronational relations. But, I agree, with Alexandreu that Carcosa is still too much of an unknown to warrant the establishment of diplomatic relations. I've reviewed their website and even sent a message. If this were Sealand, Westarctica, Molossia or Ladonia then there would be a wealth of information to review and base a decision on. I presently can't support this treaty.