Wittenberg

Over the past year, Talossa has shrunk in size.  Too many people have lost their citizenship, and too few have immigrated.  In fact, over the last year, the immigration rate has dropped by an astonishing 50%.

Fewer new citizens means that we're missing out on those who would be active and engaged, with new ideas and new energy.  It means fewer people to play games, run for office, write new poems, or just chat.  The necessary work and old institutions are divided up among a dwindling number of Talossans -- or worse, simply discarded.  It means that the same people stay in power, month after month, year after year.

According to the Seneschal, "the Government is not sure why immigration has dried up," but she notes that application numbers have been steady.  In other words, people seem just as interested, but they don't stay interested.  She suggests that "that Talossa is right now unattractive to newcomers," and that advertising wouldn't help.  On this point, she states, "I am convinced that you can't create a marketing campaign for a pile of garbage."  It's a problem with Talossa itself: she thinks that perhaps people just don't want to be here, and so they don't immigrate.

There's a serious crisis.  What should the Government be doing?  If this was a priority, what would we expect our Government to do?

Draw attention to the problem.  One of the most fundamental parts of leadership is helping to direct attention.  Since this is a serious crisis, and the Government has admitted they are at a loss, they should be shouting to the rooftops for help.  We have many citizens who pay only intermittent attention: perhaps one of them might have an idea.  Maybe you, reading this now have an idea.

Try new things.  The Government's signature policy on immigration was to make it harder to immigrate by barring any applicants with an essay of low quality.  This approach has rightfully been abandoned, but what has replaced it?  If we can't just advertise our "pile of garbage," then there must be other ideas.

We should be trying lots of things, since if we try nothing, we're certain to achieve exactly that: nothing.  Maybe we focus on our strengths with heraldry, and appeal to the online heraldic community?  Maybe we incentivize recruiting with awards, and publicize those awards with recorded video speeches?  Maybe we explore reaching out to former Old Growthers to invite them back?  Maybe we offer prizes for Talossan language writing, and then advertise those prizes on conlang forums?

Set goals.  The immigration rate has nearly halved during this Government's time in office.  Faced with that problem, a Government that was serious would set a goal for recovery.  An actual goal would demonstrate accountability.  It's much better than simply accepting decline.

The Avant Government is not doing any of these things, since solving this crisis is not one of their main priorities.  That's not good for the country.

The Progressive Alliance will prioritize immigration, the lifeblood of our country, by working to publicize the issue, trying lots of new ideas, and setting reasonable goals.

You can do a lot of that stuff from opposition, you know

That's true!  And I am doing my best by trying to focus national interest on this topic through public speeches and parliamentary questions.

When the immigration rate dropped down to zero because the application was broken, it was the Opposition that started loudly demanding answers.  And when help was needed, I personally pitched in to fix the problem.

And now that it's been months and months with only meagre improvement, we are again trying to force the Government to actually do something to fix the problem.  We want to make this crisis very public and very widely-known, so that you guys will be embarrassed enough to try some new things.

The Progressive Alliance works hard to participate in positive aspects of civil life to improve our country.  The leader of the Progressive Alliance runs our social media, and he does so in a positive and fun way.  I have led and fought hard to reduce the toxicity in our country with the summit -- I wrote the bill coming up for a vote and I have been organizing the whole effort, as you know.  I also am the author of some cultural efforts to promote our language, working with the Government to make them a reality.

And of course, we work to help matters in another way: we are campaigning to replace this Government.  The Progressive Alliance does a lot from the Opposition, but we will be able to do even more if we return to lead and put things right.

See, I'm not the one who should be embarassed, because you know there is no magic lever that the Government could pull to turn more prospectives into citizens. To hope that you can win an election by making people believe there is, and you're going to pull it, is pretty dishonest.

I think the "stop making it harder to immigrate" lever would work great.  Also, I'd pull the "try some different things like the things I suggested" lever.

Nothing the Government has done has made it harder to make an immigration application, you just made that up

BTW, can I have some indication from the Progressive Alliance's actual leader, @þerxh Sant-Enogat , that this really is the policy perspective of his party?

As you might recall, the phrase that you used, D:na Seneschal, was "quality over quantity."  You said you wanted to "raise the bar" for applicants.  It's unclear how much effect the policy change of rejecting some applicants due to their essays might have had, since it was applied under considerable scrutiny and abandoned after a couple of months, but it doesn't seem to have helped at all.  And just recently, you signaled the Government's intent to institute a test for citizens.  This is the wrong direction for the country.

I also think there's questions of management -- a cheerful and colorful public image, along with actually trying things like looking at the process.  The immigration form has something like thirty steps, including boxes to be expanded and questions and checkboxes and an essay -- have we looked at this and seen if it can be improved?  Have we looked at our websites and seen if they can be made more welcoming?  What exactly has even been attempted?

Usually, this question might be muddled.  Usually, there's no clear and obvious lever to pull.  But for the upcoming election, the choice is between "we don't know what's wrong with this pile of garbage" and "let's try some things."

I just realised that this debate is happening on your Party's forum. Sorry, I didn't realise, I usually wouldn't go into someone's house and tell them they're talking nonsense. I'm going to respond, but feel free to tell me to move it elsewhere if it's not appropriate.

But the central point remains: you know perfectly well, though you are using rhetorical trickery to bury it, that Talossa is getting more than enough citizenship applications. If we acknowledge that Government policy is currently suceeding in this regard, the next question is twofold:

- how to turn applicants into citizens?
- how to attract good quality applicants, who are actually interested in becoming active citizens?

It's clear that you actually understand the real problem, in that you're talking about reaching out to specific communities who might be interested in participating Talossan life. You give the example of heraldry nerds. So you agree that there are a specific *kind* of person we should be looking for. Fine. The Government has its own ideas on that regard. Opening the Landing Pier to broad micronational society is part of that.

The Government's interest in putting an end to spam applications which use ChatGPT essays is entirely of a piece with that. Face facts - no-one, not never who has produced an essay written with ChatGPT or whatever has ever gone on to successfully become a citizen. Not one. Because use of ChatGPT shows that they're not really interested in becoming part of our Talossan community. You really seem to think that we should let all kinds of spam entries through because spammers might decide to become citizens after participating. I disagree.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on June 28, 2025, 08:09:23 PMI just realised that this debate is happening on your Party's forum. Sorry, I didn't realise, I usually wouldn't go into someone's house and tell them they're talking nonsense. I'm going to respond, but feel free to tell me to move it elsewhere if it's not appropriate.

It's okay, since we're already discussing, but I appreciate the thought :)  Typically discussing it elsewhere would be my preference, but also I'm happy to post a clean version of this policy page in the future.  Not a big deal.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on June 28, 2025, 08:09:23 PMBut the central point remains: you know perfectly well, though you are using rhetorical trickery to bury it, that Talossa is getting more than enough citizenship applications. If we acknowledge that Government policy is currently suceeding in this regard, the next question is twofold:

- how to turn applicants into citizens?
- how to attract good quality applicants, who are actually interested in becoming active citizens?

It's clear that you actually understand the real problem, in that you're talking about reaching out to specific communities who might be interested in participating Talossan life. You give the example of heraldry nerds. So you agree that there are a specific *kind* of person we should be looking for. Fine. The Government has its own ideas on that regard. Opening the Landing Pier to broad micronational society is part of that.

The Government's interest in putting an end to spam applications which use ChatGPT essays is entirely of a piece with that. Face facts - no-one, not never who has produced an essay written with ChatGPT or whatever has ever gone on to successfully become a citizen. Not one. Because use of ChatGPT shows that they're not really interested in becoming part of our Talossan community. You really seem to think that we should let all kinds of spam entries through because spammers might decide to become citizens after participating. I disagree.

The central point is that immigration has plunged by almost 50% under this Government.  And while I suppose we might argue about whether policing essays made things worse, it kind of seems besides the point, since we still have the problem!

If a wall in our house is crumbling, then it might not have made any difference when the construction crew hung some shelves on it.  Doesn't make any sense to me to do that, but okay... in the end, does it really matter?  "We probably didn't make it worse" isn't much to brag about, and we still have a crumbling wall!

You're in charge, and you've dropped the ball: immigration levels have plummeted by almost half.

The people of Talossa deserve a government that sets this as a major priority, not one that has to be forced into thinking about the topic.  As I explained initially:  If this was a priority, what would we expect our Government to do?

Draw attention to the problem.  One of the most fundamental parts of leadership is helping to direct attention.  Since this is a serious crisis, and the Government has admitted they are at a loss, they should be shouting to the rooftops for help.  We have many citizens who pay only intermittent attention: perhaps one of them might have an idea.

Try new things.  The Government's signature policy on immigration was to make it harder to immigrate by barring any applicants with an essay of low quality.  This approach has rightfully been abandoned, but what has replaced it?  If we can't just advertise our "pile of garbage," then there must be other ideas.

We should be trying lots of things, since if we try nothing, we're certain to achieve exactly that: nothing.  Maybe we focus on our strengths with heraldry, and appeal to the online heraldic community?  Maybe we incentivize recruiting with awards, and publicize those awards with recorded video speeches?  Maybe we explore reaching out to former Old Growthers to invite them back?  Maybe we offer prizes for Talossan language writing, and then advertise those prizes on conlang forums?

Set goals.  The immigration rate has nearly halved during this Government's time in office.  Faced with that problem, a Government that was serious would set a goal for recovery.  An actual goal would demonstrate accountability.  It's much better than simply accepting decline.

I will say one thing and leave this discussion to the experts. Many people in Talossa (including Miestra and the Baron) have condemned the current leadership of our big brother nation surrounding most of Talossa for making immigration difficult to nearly impossible, requiring new citizens to show they will be useful citizens among other things. Then I see our leadership attempt to impose the very same things. Essays and tests to prove you will be "useful" citizens. I have said before that if I had been required to type out an essay I likely never would have been admitted as a citizen, I may not have even made the effort. Furthermore I have never tested well, there is a reason I am a truck driver in real life, I am not smart enough to have achieved a college degree, hell I barely graduated from high school and the reason for this is that I have never done well at tests. I don't know the answer to creating a better, more active citizenry but I don't think making it more difficult is the right answer. Then again perhaps some citizens here would rather the dumb old truck driver wasn't a citizen and wishes I could have been blocked.

Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on Yesterday at 08:34:58 AMThen I see our leadership attempt to impose the very same things. Essays and tests to prove you will be "useful" citizens.

The bill which I just proposed to the Ziu *removes* the need for a new citizen to write an essay. The Baron has sworn to *oppose* that bill, to require every citizen to keep writing an essay, no matter if it's ChatGPT. You might want to ask him why he's doing that.

The problem comes when people use rhetoric which says one thing as an excuse for action to do the opposite.

Until this Government, the accepted practice was for pretty much anything to be admissible as the essay, even if it wasn't an "essay" in the classical sense. And now your proposed bill suggests instead a "test of basic knowledge about Talossa."

This is just a further step in the wrong direction. The decision to make it harder to immigrate by "raising the bar" has been a failure.

The facts are bitter and indisputable: the immigration rate has dropped by nearly half. We need a new approach.

As usual, I think we're conflating different issues as one and then getting mad about what we've constructed.

The Immigration Process
Every single nation on Earth has some basic controls on immigration. Our situation is different enough that comparisons to macronational immigration and the difficulties thereof aren't really relevant. For us, a free-for-all approach accomplishes exactly one thing: a ballooned citizenship roll with people who do nothing for two years, don't vote, and then lose their citizenship. We've already seen two people gain citizenship under the governments of the Opposition's predecessor party, do nothing, and lapse out. By the time the next election comes around (November at the earliest), five more such citizens will be in the same position if they fail to act. I would, of course, be thrilled if all of them became more active, but I don't think holding my breath waiting for them it is the smartest move. It is not unreasonable to ask people who claim to want to be Talossan to put forth the smallest iota of effort into showing their interest in being here is actual interest. Filling out an immigration form is not difficult; I've filled out several this term so far as the Government continues to carefully monitor our computer systems. Takes about five minutes each time given the various required fields. Is five minutes that much of a hindrance?

Retaining Interest
As the Seneschal has correctly pointed out, we do in fact get quite a few citizenship applications on a monthly basis, so evidently even the "hard" application process -- which the Government is actively trying to simplify -- does not turn people away as has been claimed. So what is the issue with keeping people around? As both the Seneschal and Baron have agreed, part of the issue stems from "certain" behaviors being effectively condoned by the community due to lack of enforcement against them, and it is good to see the Government and Opposition working together to strengthen this enforcement. I don't think this is necessarily the only problem; for at least one other, I think we need to keep the course with "turning down the heat" that was begun last term. It is unfortunate that we have lost the Opposition's support on that cause.

"Try new things"
This may surprise the Baron, but the Government doesn't just sit on its hands and wait for people to complain about things before moving. Avant is more than just a name. The Government is already trying new things. We promote Talossa (both in discussions about the nation but also directly through advertising) on the MicroWiki discord. We are developing plans to "bring Talossa back to its roots" so to speak by advertising at places like gaming shops. Heck, I'm trying to leverage an online friend or two in "micronation-adjacent spaces" (read: they play NationStates) to join. We're not just sitting here saying "We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas!"

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil, O.Be on Yesterday at 11:33:11 PMFor us, a free-for-all approach accomplishes exactly one thing: a ballooned citizenship roll with people who do nothing for two years, don't vote, and then lose their citizenship.

That doesn't... seem very bad?  Casting a wide net and getting a smaller percentage of a larger number often yields a better outcome, in fact.  It's not like we need to feed the spreadsheet.  There's some slight problem with inactive citizens on the roll, but also it's an opportunity for people to circle back to what interested them initially -- maybe get involved in some way.

Beyond that philosophical difference, I think it's good that you guys are doing some stuff.  The self-promotion channel post and the questionnaire post you did this month and in May are good -- there have been zero dividends from the micronations promotion so far, but it's a good effort.  And it will be good if you do end up doing things like advertising in shops.  But this is thin gruel... and it doesn't seem to have worked.  If the Government had succeeded in managing this crisis, then the immigration rate wouldn't have dropped so dramatically.  I mean, one of those posts was only made the day after this thread started and pressure began to build on this issue!

We need to draw attention to the problem.  If you guys are engaged in a lot of secret efforts to fix this, but telling no one and not getting others engaged, you can't blame the people for ignorance of that. The Government is silent on this, and it's taken a full-court press by the Opposition to try to draw attention to this.

We should be trying lots of new things.  The main policy announced by this Government was to "raise the bar" by making it harder to immigrate.  Those paltry five minutes.  Okay, that seems to have failed.  Those five minutes might matter.  But more than that, we should be trying lots of things.  The only thing you could offer that has actually happened was some posts on Discord... does that seem like it's meeting the moment?  Why is the Seneschal saying that her entire focus is on reducing spam?  Is that wise?

We should set goals.  If this actually matters and we want to improve, then the Government should set a target for improvement.  Ideally, the Government could try to improve things, but maybe just set the target that the average immigration rate for the rest of the term will just be back where it was?  If not improvement, maybe the status quo?

Or maybe... maybe we just need a new approach.  Maybe the country deserves a new approach.