Wittenberg

WHEREAS: His Ex-Majesty Robert I has declared our great nation a sovereign one, independent of the President of the United States in 1979, and

WHEREAS: Though it started small, Talossa became one of the most prestigious micronations under his rule, and

WHEREAS: Some of his subjects grew dissatisfied with his rule due to perceived autocracy, thereby orchestrating a coup to overthrow the monarchy and establish a republic in its place, and

WHEREAS: His now ex-Majesty abdicated the Throne and renounced his title as a citizen of the once-great nation he created, and

WHEREAS: Robert I has been forgotten these past few years, and cannot be received into his country unless a member of the Ziu creates a bill.

THEREFORE WE, THE UNDERSIGNED MEMBERS OF THE ZIU, CORDIALLY INVITE THE FOUNDER OF THE TALOSSAN NATION, RÓIBEARD BEN DONATÜS, TO RETURN TO THIS WONDERFUL LAND THAT HE FOUNDED.

FURTHERMORE, WE ASK THAT A TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION, CHAIRED BY THE MOST EXCELLENT SENESCHAL, BE ESTABLISHED AS A MEDIUM FOR HIM TO CLARIFY HIS ACTIONS AND VIEWPOINTS, AND TO APOLOGISE FOR ANY ALLEGED HARM HE HAS CAUSED.

NOS ORANT QVOD STARET SIC! (NOI URENT Q'ESTADRA SÅ!)

+++

Mximo Malt (MC-IDT)
Breneir Tzaracomprada (MC-Green)
Béneditsch Ardpresteir (Senator for Maricopa)

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I think probably a first step would be re-opening a conversation with the former king, and asking if this is something he's still interested in.  When he broached the subject a couple of years ago, people were mostly only open to his return if he was willing to take some accountability for his behavior.  But he might be ready to do that to some degree, and re-enter our community as a citizen.  He's 60 years old and still alive, so he's already defied the prophecy that said he would die at 59.  Maybe that's when he'll be ready to talk about it.

Over the years, a lot of people have accepted responsibility for their role in past events.  For example, His Grace, Duke John, made a speech about how the Kingdom should have reached out more to the Republic in the time of schism and worked to close that breach earlier, and apologizing on behalf of the country for how former King Robert treated them while they were citizens.  And Marti-Pair and Ieremiah apologized for taking control of the Talossan webspaces when founding the Republic.  The Seneschal has publicly apologized for her attitude and treatment of others prior to her election as senator.  I have apologized for my treatment of a former citizen.

Former King Robert did everything possible to try to usurp control from the people when they started to drift away from him.  When he lost, he tried to bring Talossa to the ground.  Maybe he's ready to talk about that.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 06, 2025, 05:08:16 PMI think probably a first step would be re-opening a conversation with the former king, and asking if this is something he's still interested in.  When he broached the subject a couple of years ago, people were mostly only open to his return if he was willing to take some accountability for his behavior.  But he might be ready to do that to some degree, and re-enter our community as a citizen.  He's 60 years old and still alive, so he's already defied the prophecy that said he would die at 59.  Maybe that's when he'll be ready to talk about it.

Over the years, a lot of people have accepted responsibility for their role in past events.  For example, His Grace, Duke John, made a speech about how the Kingdom should have reached out more to the Republic in the time of schism and worked to close that breach earlier, and apologizing on behalf of the country for how former King Robert treated them while they were citizens.  And Marti-Pair and Ieremiah apologized for taking control of the Talossan webspaces when founding the Republic.  The Seneschal has publicly apologized for her attitude and treatment of others prior to her election as senator.  I have apologized for my treatment of a former citizen.

Former King Robert did everything possible to try to usurp control from the people when they started to drift away from him.  When he lost, he tried to bring Talossa to the ground.  Maybe he's ready to talk about that.

All I want to do with this is restore Robert's good name in this land. I'm not a sedevacantist in terms of the Talossan throne. I just believe that Robert deserves some respect. And repentance is always possible, so if he apologises for any wrongdoing, it'll be cloud 9 for the Kingdom.


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I think that even people who are angry with him or that he treated badly still respect him, broadly speaking. It takes a special kind of something to found a nation in your bedroom and then keep it up, adding on language and culture, all the way through to middle age.

I think you are unlikely to get the votes to restore his citizenship without some kind of process happening first. Maybe a good first step would be to pass a bill to establish a truth and reconciliation commission, and invite him to it, so that we can talk it out as a nation and as a founder. Would you be interested in something like that, or reaching out to him privately first, or something similar? I have his email address.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 06, 2025, 05:14:28 PMI think that even people who are angry with him or that he treated badly still respect him, broadly speaking. It takes a special kind of something to found a nation in your bedroom and then keep it up, adding on language and culture, all the way through to middle age.

I think you are unlikely to get the votes to restore his citizenship without some kind of process happening first. Maybe a good first step would be to pass a bill to establish a truth and reconciliation commission, and invite him to it, so that we can talk it out as a nation and as a founder. Would you be interested in something like that, or reaching out to him privately first, or something similar? I have his email address.

Dm me, we'll talk there (either here or discord)


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Ok, sent you his email address.  I wish you luck!

Maybe he could be granted citizenship on conditions e.g. He may never serve as King or Seneschal, etc.

I don't believe that former King John granted former King Robert any titles, so there is no King Emeritus in Talossa.

Also, I don't possess the power to restore the citizenship of anyone, that would require an Act of the Ziu, of which this really isn't one the way it is written.

Finally, there are a lot of strong feelings from those who knew the former king. This bill might not achieve what you are looking to do.

-Txec R

Quote from: King Txec on December 06, 2025, 07:03:59 PMI don't believe that former King John granted former King Robert any titles, so there is no King Emeritus in Talossa.

Also, I don't possess the power to restore the citizenship of anyone, that would require an Act of the Ziu, of which this really isn't one the way it is written.

Finally, there are a lot of strong feelings from those who knew the former king. This bill might not achieve what you are looking to do.

-Txec R

Well, I put the emeritus title as a form of respect. If that is terrible, I apologise, Your Majesty.




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This might just be fluff, but I'm worried that the part about "RID[DING] THIS REALM OF ALL SLANDER AGAINST [BEN]" could potentially run afoul of the First Covenant.

I also find it personally gross to try and question people's love for the country if they don't wish to rehabilitate Ben, especially considering everything that might've gone on between them and him.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 06, 2025, 07:22:35 PMThis might just be fluff, but I'm worried that the part about "RID[DING] THIS REALM OF ALL SLANDER AGAINST [BEN]" could potentially run afoul of the First Covenant.

I also find it personally gross to try and question people's love for the country if they don't wish to rehabilitate Ben, especially considering everything that might've gone on between them and him.

I just think it's gone too far, since he's but a distant memory. I'll update it immediately.


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The former king is a historical figure but he doesn't occupy the mind of many if any citizens. Talossans are a remarkably forward-looking people.

Also, no need to apologize to me. I wasn't offended, but I do have the right as Sovereign to advise the Cosa.

-Txec R

With respect, why is a new citizen who never knew or interacted with KR1 so unbelievably keen to rehabilitate his memory?

Surely even in Western Orthodox Reactionary thought, you understand that some monarchs are tyrants.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 07, 2025, 01:21:10 PMWith respect, why is a new citizen who never knew or interacted with KR1 so unbelievably keen to rehabilitate his memory?

Surely even in Western Orthodox Reactionary thought, you understand that some monarchs are tyrants.

Some, not all. And I don't know how Robert was a tyrant, can you give me an example?


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As an example: for many years, he controlled a personal bloc of votes from citizens only he knew.  He would announce how they'd voted, and use this power to swing elections.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 07, 2025, 05:08:22 PMAs an example: for many years, he controlled a personal bloc of votes from citizens only he knew.  He would announce how they'd voted, and use this power to swing elections.

I wouldn't view that as tyranny...it seems more like nepotism in my interpretation. I'm sure he was a good leader nonetheless besides this. Madame PM, I do not in any way condone this, but I'm just saying we need to be slow to make a conclusion about someone.


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Okay, so he wasn't literally a tyrant, since for the latter part of Talossan history, he followed the forms of democracy and divided powers, and he never wielded authoritarian power with force.  We're using the term like many people do, to refer to someone who acts as a strongman and subverts the process of democracy in order to trample on the rights of others.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 07, 2025, 05:47:57 PMOkay, so he wasn't literally a tyrant, since for the latter part of Talossan history, he followed the forms of democracy and divided powers, and he never wielded authoritarian power with force.  We're using the term like many people do, to refer to someone who acts as a strongman and subverts the process of democracy in order to trample on the rights of others.

Well, heaven isn't a democracy...

If we had a state religion (theoretically), I would think that the Archbishop of Abbavilla would have the right to suspend or depose the King/Queen based upon his actions, but that would seem too theocratic...

And since Robert is a Christian now, I don't think he'd mind my philosophy. This is just my personal opinion.


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Quote from: Max Maltezos on December 07, 2025, 05:52:40 PMWell, heaven isn't a democracy...

Talossa is, and should continue to be one.

Quote from: Max Maltezos on December 07, 2025, 05:52:40 PM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 07, 2025, 05:47:57 PMOkay, so he wasn't literally a tyrant, since for the latter part of Talossan history, he followed the forms of democracy and divided powers, and he never wielded authoritarian power with force.  We're using the term like many people do, to refer to someone who acts as a strongman and subverts the process of democracy in order to trample on the rights of others.

Well, heaven isn't a democracy...

If we had a state religion (theoretically), I would think that the Archbishop of Abbavilla would have the right to suspend or depose the King/Queen based upon his actions, but that would seem too theocratic...

And since Robert is a Christian now, I don't think he'd mind my philosophy. This is just my personal opinion.


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We don't have the same religion, but from what I understand of Christian heaven, it's full of angels.  And there's a famous quote by an American politician, James Madison, that addresses the distinction:

If Men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and the next place, oblige it to control itself.

The funny thing is I didn't say KR1 was a tyrant. Just made the point that even in Mximo's tradition, not all Kings are worthy of allegiance.

The technical term for how he operated would be "abusive bully and authoritarian". Imagine a country where the forms of multiparty democracy are intact, but the Head of State keeps up a constant stream of threatening invective and slander against opposition politicians, uses politicised investigations against them to drive them out of participation, and maintains a biased electoral system which gives his voting base proportionally unfair power.

Actually, if you're a US citizen, that shouldn't be hard to imagine LMAO.

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 07, 2025, 05:52:40 PMIf we had a state religion (theoretically), I would think that the Archbishop of Abbavilla would have the right to suspend or depose the King/Queen based upon his actions, but that would seem too theocratic...

As a Buddhist myself, Christian theocracy is a big fat NO for me.

Quote from: Françal I. Lux on December 07, 2025, 09:37:30 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 07, 2025, 05:52:40 PMIf we had a state religion (theoretically), I would think that the Archbishop of Abbavilla would have the right to suspend or depose the King/Queen based upon his actions, but that would seem too theocratic...

As a Buddhist myself, Christian theocracy is a big fat NO for me.

Unfortunately, your "Got What I Voted For" award is already in the mail.

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil, O.Be on December 07, 2025, 09:41:44 PMUnfortunately, your "Got What I Voted For" award is already in the mail.

How clever!

@Mximo Malt Once again speaking only as an individual MC I would support this bill assuming the former King acknowledged and assumed responsibility for the facts of what happened.

With that assumption, the return of the nation's founder could be an enormous positive. Generally, I support your efforts at reconciliation.

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on December 08, 2025, 12:12:44 PM@Mximo Malt Once again speaking only as an individual MC I would support this bill assuming the former King acknowledged and assumed responsibility for the facts of what happened.

With that assumption, the return of Ben to the nation he founded could be an enormous positive. Generally, I support your efforts at reconciliation.

I have reached out to him, and have received no reply as of yet. I'll let him clarify his actions once he comes back, if at all.

+++ MISM +++


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Will this be added to the 1st Clark next month, [mention]Sir Lüc [/mention] ?

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 23, 2025, 11:58:43 AMWill this be added to the 1st Clark next month, [mention]Sir Lüc [/mention] ?

The normal process is that a Call for Bills, in which members can put their bills forward to get a vote, is opened by me sometime around the 25th. I'm still waiting for the Túischac'h election to be resolved and for the CRL to then be back to a complete slate before doing that though.

One thing I can tell you already is that you should relabel this proposal, though, because by definition it cannot be called an "act" if it doesn't seek to create, amend or repeal legislation. This kind of nonbinding resolution is more accurately defined as a Sense of the Ziu (in your case, "Sense of the Ziu: Restoration of National Honour" or something similar)

Quote from: Sir Lüc on December 24, 2025, 07:26:33 AM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 23, 2025, 11:58:43 AMWill this be added to the 1st Clark next month, [mention]Sir Lüc [/mention] ?

The normal process is that a Call for Bills, in which members can put their bills forward to get a vote, is opened by me sometime around the 25th. I'm still waiting for the Túischac'h election to be resolved and for the CRL to then be back to a complete slate before doing that though.

One thing I can tell you already is that you should relabel this proposal, though, because by definition it cannot be called an "act" if it doesn't seek to create, amend or repeal legislation. This kind of nonbinding resolution is more accurately defined as a Sense of the Ziu (in your case, "Sense of the Ziu: Restoration of National Honour" or something similar)

So how do I change the title to reflect that?

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 24, 2025, 08:39:52 AM

Quote from: Sir Lüc on December 24, 2025, 07:26:33 AM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 23, 2025, 11:58:43 AMWill this be added to the 1st Clark next month, [mention]Sir Lüc [/mention] ?

The normal process is that a Call for Bills, in which members can put their bills forward to get a vote, is opened by me sometime around the 25th. I'm still waiting for the Túischac'h election to be resolved and for the CRL to then be back to a complete slate before doing that though.

One thing I can tell you already is that you should relabel this proposal, though, because by definition it cannot be called an "act" if it doesn't seek to create, amend or repeal legislation. This kind of nonbinding resolution is more accurately defined as a Sense of the Ziu (in your case, "Sense of the Ziu: Restoration of National Honour" or something similar)

So how do I change the title to reflect that?

You can edit the original post, and changing the title on that will change the title of the whole thread.

I noticed one additional thing in the meantime - your signature on the proposal is usually written in Talossan, using the word "Ureu q'estadra så" (or "Noi urent..." if you get any cosponsors), with every sponsor listed underneath in the format Name Surname (MC-Party abbr.) or Name Surname (Senator-Provincial abbr.) as appropriate.

In your case, therefore:

QuoteUreu q'estadra så,



Mximo Malt (MC-IDT)

(But I generally take care of formatting sponsors myself when making the Clark, if there are any issues)

Quote from: Sir Lüc on December 24, 2025, 12:43:29 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 24, 2025, 08:39:52 AM

Quote from: Sir Lüc on December 24, 2025, 07:26:33 AM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 23, 2025, 11:58:43 AMWill this be added to the 1st Clark next month, [mention]Sir Lüc [/mention] ?

The normal process is that a Call for Bills, in which members can put their bills forward to get a vote, is opened by me sometime around the 25th. I'm still waiting for the Túischac'h election to be resolved and for the CRL to then be back to a complete slate before doing that though.

One thing I can tell you already is that you should relabel this proposal, though, because by definition it cannot be called an "act" if it doesn't seek to create, amend or repeal legislation. This kind of nonbinding resolution is more accurately defined as a Sense of the Ziu (in your case, "Sense of the Ziu: Restoration of National Honour" or something similar)

So how do I change the title to reflect that?

You can edit the original post, and changing the title on that will change the title of the whole thread.

I noticed one additional thing in the meantime - your signature on the proposal is usually written in Talossan, using the word "Ureu q'estadra så" (or "Noi urent..." if you get any cosponsors), with every sponsor listed underneath in the format Name Surname (MC-Party abbr.) or Name Surname (Senator-Provincial abbr.) as appropriate.

In your case, therefore:

QuoteUreu q'estadra så,



Mximo Malt (MC-IDT)

(But I generally take care of formatting sponsors myself when making the Clark, if there are any issues)

All done! It should be good for the Clericus/Clark now!


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Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 06, 2025, 05:08:16 PMI think probably a first step would be re-opening a conversation with the former king, and asking if this is something he's still interested in.  When he broached the subject a couple of years ago, people were mostly only open to his return if he was willing to take some accountability for his behavior.  But he might be ready to do that to some degree, and re-enter our community as a citizen.  He's 60 years old and still alive, so he's already defied the prophecy that said he would die at 59.  Maybe that's when he'll be ready to talk about it.

Over the years, a lot of people have accepted responsibility for their role in past events.  For example, His Grace, Duke John, made a speech about how the Kingdom should have reached out more to the Republic in the time of schism and worked to close that breach earlier, and apologizing on behalf of the country for how former King Robert treated them while they were citizens.  And Marti-Pair and Ieremiah apologized for taking control of the Talossan webspaces when founding the Republic.  The Seneschal has publicly apologized for her attitude and treatment of others prior to her election as senator.  I have apologized for my treatment of a former citizen.

Former King Robert did everything possible to try to usurp control from the people when they started to drift away from him.  When he lost, he tried to bring Talossa to the ground.  Maybe he's ready to talk about that.

I disagree with your use of the word "usurp", because, from his standpoint, it was other people trying to usurp control of his creation from him! Can we kindly use less charged language?  Each side has much to apologize for, demanding apology while giving none in return is NOT the way to go.  Call it a wash and move on.  It's all relative, anyway; one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Following the Independence Day lunch with Mic'hel and all-too-brief meeting of Mximo, I telephoned Ben.  He stated that he has no intent or desire to "force his way back in", but that if invited he would be interested in coming back.  I am naturally willing to act as intermediary.  This legislation, or something like it, would serve as an excellent gauge to the Regipat's willingness to allow this.

Though maybe it does need to be reframed a little.  I'm mulling over my thoughts.

His concern of course is to not be subjected to an overtly hostile environment, there being easily a half dozen Quator Astor citizens still at least semi-active here who despise him viscerally; his impression from his last attempt at reconciliation was that those people were still "in charge" and absolutely blacklisting him.  I think this "Ship of Theseus" has changed enough planks to be different enough, while of course maintaining the same overall shape. 

Let's at least resolve to be civil.

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 26, 2025, 03:34:57 PM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 06, 2025, 05:08:16 PMI think probably a first step would be re-opening a conversation with the former king, and asking if this is something he's still interested in.  When he broached the subject a couple of years ago, people were mostly only open to his return if he was willing to take some accountability for his behavior.  But he might be ready to do that to some degree, and re-enter our community as a citizen.  He's 60 years old and still alive, so he's already defied the prophecy that said he would die at 59.  Maybe that's when he'll be ready to talk about it.

Over the years, a lot of people have accepted responsibility for their role in past events.  For example, His Grace, Duke John, made a speech about how the Kingdom should have reached out more to the Republic in the time of schism and worked to close that breach earlier, and apologizing on behalf of the country for how former King Robert treated them while they were citizens.  And Marti-Pair and Ieremiah apologized for taking control of the Talossan webspaces when founding the Republic.  The Seneschal has publicly apologized for her attitude and treatment of others prior to her election as senator.  I have apologized for my treatment of a former citizen.

Former King Robert did everything possible to try to usurp control from the people when they started to drift away from him.  When he lost, he tried to bring Talossa to the ground.  Maybe he's ready to talk about that.

I disagree with your use of the word "usurp", because, from his standpoint, it was other people trying to usurp control of his creation from him! Can we kindly use less charged language?  Each side has much to apologize for, demanding apology while giving none in return is NOT the way to go.  Call it a wash and move on.  It's all relative, anyway; one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Following the Independence Day lunch with Mic'hel and all-too-brief meeting of Mximo, I telephoned Ben.  He stated that he has no intent or desire to "force his way back in", but that if invited he would be interested in coming back.  I am naturally willing to act as intermediary.  This legislation, or something like it, would serve as an excellent gauge to the Regipat's willingness to allow this.

Though maybe it does need to be reframed a little.  I'm mulling over my thoughts.

His concern of course is to not be subjected to an overtly hostile environment, there being easily a half dozen Quator Astor citizens still at least semi-active here who despise him viscerally; his impression from his last attempt at reconciliation was that those people were still "in charge" and absolutely blacklisting him.  I think this "Ship of Theseus" has changed enough planks to be different enough, while of course maintaining the same overall shape. 

Let's at least resolve to be civil.

Well said, S:reu Conă. Well said.

- MM

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 26, 2025, 03:34:57 PMFollowing the Independence Day lunch with Mic'hel and all-too-brief meeting of Mximo, I telephoned Ben.  He stated that he has no intent or desire to "force his way back in", but that if invited he would be interested in coming back.  I am naturally willing to act as intermediary.  This legislation, or something like it, would serve as an excellent gauge to the Regipat's willingness to allow this.

Thank you Xheralt for reaching out to him. Based on this very early but apparent positive interest by Ben in coming back I would like to ask @Mximo Malt if I could be a co-sponsor (for myself and not as official Green Party). Ben's return and reconciliation with his creation would be a positive in my opinion and I'd be pleased to assist.

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on December 26, 2025, 03:45:47 PM

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 26, 2025, 03:34:57 PMFollowing the Independence Day lunch with Mic'hel and all-too-brief meeting of Mximo, I telephoned Ben.  He stated that he has no intent or desire to "force his way back in", but that if invited he would be interested in coming back.  I am naturally willing to act as intermediary.  This legislation, or something like it, would serve as an excellent gauge to the Regipat's willingness to allow this.

Thank you Xheralt for reaching out to him. Based on this very early but apparent positive interest by Ben in coming back I would like to ask @Mximo Malt if I could be a co-sponsor (for myself and not as official Green Party). Ben's return and reconciliation with his creation would be a positive in my opinion and I'd be pleased to assist.

That's very awesome! I'll tweak it to reflect this.

- MM

An interesting development on Independence Day.

-Txec R

Given that Talossa's transgender community is now large and prominent in public life, perhaps someone should ask Ben Madison whether he still holds to the absolute contempt he expressed for that community in previous decades.

In fact, I'd like to co-sponsor the Bill, if possible.

Further, in the future I'd like to moot a bill wherein former Rulers are automatically granted a Dukedom.  And that includes the current King when he loses his crown.

-BenArd

(EDITED)

I would veto any bill that required me to grant any title of nobility to anyone. The granting of honors is a royal perogative. Even if Ben were to return, he will not receive any honors just because of who he once was.

-Txec R

I am reluctant to jump right into this with both feet, since I think there's still a lot of raw feelings on both sides. However, maybe this is the start of something?

Personally, I would really rather we had another conversation with him before we got right to voting. I would be happy to authorize an account for him if he would be willing to come chat with us.

I'd be interested in some of the following things, some of which people have already brought up:

Today, we are a very welcoming country to people of every belief and background. There have been multiple seneschals who are transgender, for example, and people have political beliefs that range from anarchist to conservative theocrat. Would you be comfortable living in peace with all and sundry?

Many people feel that you leaned very heavily on the law and others to try to maintain control of the country. Others have pointed out that you might feel that it was your creation to steer. Regardless of that, could you be a citizen among all citizens?

Our national language has evolved over time, and with some difficulty, our language committee has arrived at relative unity. Is that something you're okay with?

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 27, 2025, 07:55:24 AMPersonally, I would really rather we had another conversation with him before we got right to voting.

I wholeheartedly agree, which is why I will be voting against this bill unless and until such a conversation has been had and the air has been cleared.

Quote from: Béneditsch Ardpresteir on December 27, 2025, 03:36:41 AMIn fact, I'd like to co-sponsor the Bill, if possible.

Further, in the future I'd like to moot a bill wherein former Rulers are automatically granted a Dukedom.

-BenArd

Of course! And did you see that I requested arms?

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 27, 2025, 12:03:00 AMGiven that Talossa's transgender community is now large and prominent in public life, perhaps someone should ask Ben Madison whether he still holds to the absolute contempt he expressed for that community in previous decades.

I don't think he would nowadays given that he's part of the Henryite church.

*cough* Anglicans *cough*

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 10:21:17 AM

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 27, 2025, 12:03:00 AMGiven that Talossa's transgender community is now large and prominent in public life, perhaps someone should ask Ben Madison whether he still holds to the absolute contempt he expressed for that community in previous decades.

I don't think he would nowadays given that he's part of the Henryite church.

*cough* Anglicans *cough*

There are more than enough transphobic Anglicans out there. The LGBT community doesn't call the UK "TERF Island" for nothing.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 10:23:17 AM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 10:21:17 AM

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 27, 2025, 12:03:00 AMGiven that Talossa's transgender community is now large and prominent in public life, perhaps someone should ask Ben Madison whether he still holds to the absolute contempt he expressed for that community in previous decades.

I don't think he would nowadays given that he's part of the Henryite church.

*cough* Anglicans *cough*

There are more than enough transphobic Anglicans out there. The LGBT community doesn't call the UK "TERF Island" for nothing.

I called them Henryites because of their theology, NOT because of transgenderism!!!

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 10:26:45 AM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 10:23:17 AM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 10:21:17 AM

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 27, 2025, 12:03:00 AMGiven that Talossa's transgender community is now large and prominent in public life, perhaps someone should ask Ben Madison whether he still holds to the absolute contempt he expressed for that community in previous decades.

I don't think he would nowadays given that he's part of the Henryite church.

*cough* Anglicans *cough*

There are more than enough transphobic Anglicans out there. The LGBT community doesn't call the UK "TERF Island" for nothing.

I called them Henryites because of their theology, NOT because of transgenderism!!!

What?

I'm explaining to you that Ben's conversion to the Anglican Church in no way means that he is therefore accepting of trans people now, which is what your message seemed to suggest.

Also, "transgenderism" seems like a bad choice of words.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 10:28:21 AM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 10:26:45 AM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 10:23:17 AM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 10:21:17 AM

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 27, 2025, 12:03:00 AMGiven that Talossa's transgender community is now large and prominent in public life, perhaps someone should ask Ben Madison whether he still holds to the absolute contempt he expressed for that community in previous decades.

I don't think he would nowadays given that he's part of the Henryite church.

*cough* Anglicans *cough*

There are more than enough transphobic Anglicans out there. The LGBT community doesn't call the UK "TERF Island" for nothing.

I called them Henryites because of their theology, NOT because of transgenderism!!!

What?

I'm explaining to you that Ben's conversion to the Anglican Church in no way means that he is therefore accepting of trans people now, which is what your message seemed to suggest.

Also, "transgenderism" seems like a bad choice of words.

Apologies about the "ism" word.

After the much-needed enlightenment from the ex-Seneschal about KR1's views, this in NO WAY influences my motives to bring him back. My only reasons are for el Glheþ (etymological research), and due to the fact that he founded this beautiful land that we call home.

That's it.

If that's true, that'll be an easy answer for him. But he has expressed different beliefs in the past, and I think it's very reasonable to ask him about it.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 27, 2025, 10:43:02 AMIf that's true, that'll be an easy answer for him. But he has expressed different beliefs in the past, and I think it's very reasonable to ask him about it.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 27, 2025, 10:43:02 AMIf that's true, that'll be an easy answer for him. But he has expressed different beliefs in the past, and I think it's very reasonable to ask him about it.

I'm surprised you're the only other person in the Kingdom that resonates with me! Surely "belonging for the sake of belonging" wouldn't ruffle anyone's feathers, right? Not when it's our founder, apparently! 🙄

Maybe we could hold off on this vote until we have a chance to chat with him? Another phone call to invite him to join us here, maybe. Would that be okay?

The same reason that we get along is what applies here: I want everyone to feel safe and welcome, as long as they're not going after anyone, and that includes both you and him and people who might very reasonably wonder if he still has the same views as before. You might not be aware of this, but he was rather hateful and went to some lengths to do things like deadname some of our citizens specifically to offend them.

That was a long time ago, though, so there's every possibility that he's just completely changed in that respect. A lot of folks have grown in the subsequent years.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 27, 2025, 10:47:15 AMMaybe we could hold off on this vote until we have a chance to chat with him? Another phone call to invite him to join us here, maybe. Would that be okay?

The same reason that we get along is what applies here: I want everyone to feel safe and welcome, as long as they're not going after anyone, and that includes both you and him and people who might very reasonably wonder if he still has the same views as before. You might not be aware of this, but he was rather hateful and went to some lengths to do things like deadname some of our citizens specifically to offend them.

That was a long time ago, though, so there's every possibility that he's just completely changed in that respect. A lot of folks have grown in the subsequent years.

Ok, but this bill is first and foremost to OK his return. We can have a T&RC before issuing him a grant to give him a chance to clarify his actions.

Sounds fair, doesn't it, Baron Seneschal?

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 10:51:05 AMOk, but this bill is first and foremost to OK his return. We can have a T&RC before issuing him a grant to give him a chance to clarify his actions.

Sounds fair, doesn't it, Baron Seneschal?

This bill specifically asks the people in charge to "RESTORE THE CITIZENSHIP OF ROBERT I AT ONCE". "At once" means immediately. That doesn't sound like a mere OK, but rather that you would like him back as fast as humanly possible. Too fast for some people here.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 10:53:30 AM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 10:51:05 AMOk, but this bill is first and foremost to OK his return. We can have a T&RC before issuing him a grant to give him a chance to clarify his actions.

Sounds fair, doesn't it, Baron Seneschal?

This bill specifically asks the people in charge to "RESTORE THE CITIZENSHIP OF ROBERT I AT ONCE". "At one" means immediately. That doesn't sound like a mere OK, but rather that you would like him back as fast as humanly possible. Too fast for some people here.

Recent developments have changed that for me. I'll edit it immediately.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 10:53:30 AM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 10:51:05 AMOk, but this bill is first and foremost to OK his return. We can have a T&RC before issuing him a grant to give him a chance to clarify his actions.

Sounds fair, doesn't it, Baron Seneschal?

This bill specifically asks the people in charge to "RESTORE THE CITIZENSHIP OF ROBERT I AT ONCE". "At once" means immediately. That doesn't sound like a mere OK, but rather that you would like him back as fast as humanly possible. Too fast for some people here.

There, happy?

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 10:56:27 AMThere, happy?

Hang on, did the Seneschal agree to chair a Truth and Reconciliation Commission? Did your co-sponsors agree to this change? You're putting the cart before the horse.

Speaking of co-sponsors, the appropriate title for S:reu Ardpresteir within the Ziu would be "Senator for Maricopa", not "Squirrel-King of Arms".

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 10:58:57 AM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 10:56:27 AMThere, happy?

Hang on, did the Seneschal agree to chair a Truth and Reconciliation Commission? Did your co-sponsors agree to this change? You're putting the cart before the horse.

Speaking of co-sponsors, the appropriate title for S:reu Ardpresteir within the Ziu would be "Senator for Maricopa", not "Squirrel-King of Arms".

If the Seneschal supports a T&RC, I have no doubt in my mind that he wouldn't oppose being the chair. And regarding my cosponsors, they wouldn't mind the tweaks I made here and there.

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 11:00:42 AMIf the Seneschal supports a T&RC, I have no doubt in my mind that he would oppose being the chair. And regarding my cosponsors, they wouldn't mind the tweaks I made here and there.

Did you ask? I mean, changing "return Ben's citizenship at once" to "agree to let Ben return on the condition of being questioned by a T&RC" is not a small tweak by any means.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 27, 2025, 07:55:24 AMI am reluctant to jump right into this with both feet, since I think there's still a lot of raw feelings on both sides. However, maybe this is the start of something?

Personally, I would really rather we had another conversation with him before we got right to voting. I would be happy to authorize an account for him if he would be willing to come chat with us.

We'll talk in DMs or Discord (whichever you prefer)

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 11:01:14 AM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 11:00:42 AMIf the Seneschal supports a T&RC, I have no doubt in my mind that he would oppose being the chair. And regarding my cosponsors, they wouldn't mind the tweaks I made here and there.

Did you ask? I mean, changing "return Ben's citizenship at once" to "agree to let Ben return on the condition of being questioned by a T&RC" is not a small tweak by any means.

Well given the fact that the majority of subjects still resent him, I think it only be fair to change the method of restoring KR1's nationality.

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 11:03:31 AMWell given the fact that the majority of subjects still resent him, I think it only be fair to change the method of restoring KR1's nationality.

That's not my point. I feel like you should've asked before making any sweeping changes like that.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 11:06:54 AM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 11:03:31 AMWell given the fact that the majority of subjects still resent him, I think it only be fair to change the method of restoring KR1's nationality.

That's not my point. I feel like you should've asked before making any sweeping changes like that.

And just who, pray tell, should I have asked?

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 11:07:37 AMAnd just who, pray tell, should I have asked?

The people who put their signature on this bill before you made these changes, perhaps. Or the Seneschal whom you want to chair a T&RC.

With regret, the Whereas clauses are so loaded with bias and possible untruths, if this bill were to make it to a vote in the Ziu as written, and should it pass, I will veto it. I mean seriously, you weren't even alive in 1979 so saying that President Carter ruled with an iron fist is extremely melodramatic.

There are citizens who were here during his rule and your clauses refute, without any direct knowledge, their experiences.

-Txec R

Quote from: King Txec on December 27, 2025, 11:18:34 AMWith regret, the Whereas clauses are so loaded with bias and possible untruths, if this bill were to make it to a vote in the Ziu as written, and should it pass, I will veto it. I mean seriously, you weren't even alive in 1979 so saying that President Carter ruled with an iron fist is extremely melodramatic.

There are citizens who were here during his rule and your clauses refute, without any direct knowledge, their experiences.

-Txec R

I actually understood that to be classic Talossan hyperbole.

On the bill, I would suggest that a good first step would be making a visitor's account for him, and reaching out to invite him to use it. And the bill could be a good barometer of the nation's openness to that.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 27, 2025, 11:26:15 AM

Quote from: King Txec on December 27, 2025, 11:18:34 AMWith regret, the Whereas clauses are so loaded with bias and possible untruths, if this bill were to make it to a vote in the Ziu as written, and should it pass, I will veto it. I mean seriously, you weren't even alive in 1979 so saying that President Carter ruled with an iron fist is extremely melodramatic.

There are citizens who were here during his rule and your clauses refute, without any direct knowledge, their experiences.

-Txec R

I actually understood that to be classic Talossan hyperbole.

Pardon?

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 11:27:03 AM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 27, 2025, 11:26:15 AM

Quote from: King Txec on December 27, 2025, 11:18:34 AMWith regret, the Whereas clauses are so loaded with bias and possible untruths, if this bill were to make it to a vote in the Ziu as written, and should it pass, I will veto it. I mean seriously, you weren't even alive in 1979 so saying that President Carter ruled with an iron fist is extremely melodramatic.

There are citizens who were here during his rule and your clauses refute, without any direct knowledge, their experiences.

-Txec R

I actually understood that to be classic Talossan hyperbole.

Pardon?

That first whereas clause seemed to me to be a classic use of hyperbole, referring to our founding as freeing us from an iron fist when the person in question was not very tyrannical. We use that kind of language all the time when it comes to things like our founding.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 27, 2025, 11:28:30 AM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 11:27:03 AM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 27, 2025, 11:26:15 AM

Quote from: King Txec on December 27, 2025, 11:18:34 AMWith regret, the Whereas clauses are so loaded with bias and possible untruths, if this bill were to make it to a vote in the Ziu as written, and should it pass, I will veto it. I mean seriously, you weren't even alive in 1979 so saying that President Carter ruled with an iron fist is extremely melodramatic.

There are citizens who were here during his rule and your clauses refute, without any direct knowledge, their experiences.

-Txec R

I actually understood that to be classic Talossan hyperbole.

Pardon?

That first whereas clause seemed to me to be a classic use of hyperbole, referring to our founding as freeing us from a tyrant when the person in question was not very tyrannical. We use that kind of language all the time when it comes to things like our founding.

So they've been using that since the beginning? If this dissatisfies His Majesty, I ought to change it. Otherwise, why bother talking about this at all?

It's better now.

-Txec R

Quote from: King Txec on December 27, 2025, 11:44:08 AMIt's better now.

-Txec R

Then I did my job.

- MM

Sir Marcel has done a good job of offering criticism of this bill (in terms of form, content, and process) but to add a few other points in parallel:

- The people who suffered most under KR1's harassment back in the day have stated — back in 2019, mind you — that they would need to receive some kind of fence-mending from Ben to be comfortable with inviting him back.
- They have not yet received any such apology or anything from Ben in the six years since he tried to re-immigrate. He has had ample time and not used it in the slightest.
- Therefore, it is not appropriate for the Ziu to invite him back at this time.

This bill requires us to extend the hand first, when the proper way to make amends is for the one who caused the harm to swallow their pride and reach out. The door has remained open for six years, and no attempt to walk through it has been made.

I frankly think this is an utter waste of time and needlessly divides the citizenry when we have more important things to do.

I find it incredibly ironic that our Ladintsch Naziunal shuns the very man who created the language he is entrusted to protect. If he comes back, he'd no doubt fill a lot of linguistic loopholes that we face, like where the word "Cestour" came from. I'm confident that Ben's return would be a step closer to solving this mystery.

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:25:06 PMI find it incredibly ironic that our Ladintsch Naziunal shuns the very man who created the language he is entrusted to protect. If he comes back, he'd no doubt fill a lot of linguistic loopholes that we face, like where the word "Cestour" came from. I'm confident that Ben's return would be a step closer to solving this mystery.

I've already explained my stance on this, there is nothing "ironic" about it, nor are the hypothetical etymologies of uniquely Talossan terms a "loophole". If you somehow believe that my stance on Ben as a person makes me unqualified to be Ladintsch Naziunal, say it publicly.

I said in the beginning of this thread that your insinuation that people who don't want to see Ben back don't really love this country is repulsive. I stand by what I said then.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 04:46:17 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:25:06 PMI find it incredibly ironic that our Ladintsch Naziunal shuns the very man who created the language he is entrusted to protect. If he comes back, he'd no doubt fill a lot of linguistic loopholes that we face, like where the word "Cestour" came from. I'm confident that Ben's return would be a step closer to solving this mystery.

I've already explained my stance on this, there is nothing "ironic" about it, nor are the hypothetical etymologies of uniquely Talossan terms a "loophole". If you somehow believe that my stance on Ben as a person makes me unqualified to be Ladintsch Naziunal, say it publicly.

I said in the beginning of this thread that your insinuation that people who don't want to see Ben back don't really love this country is repulsive. I stand by what I said then.

As you are well aware, I have removed that provision from the bill.

And you know what? You are NOT fit to be Ladintsch Naziunal if you are not interested in the history of the language. Promoting its use is one thing, but the history of the language is one of the most important aspects of it. There, I said it.

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:48:44 PMAnd you know what? You are NOT fit to be Ladintsch Naziunal if you are not interested in the history of the language. Promoting its use is one thing, but the history of the language is one of the most important aspects of it. There, I said it.

I am interested in its history. That's why I have been, among other things, researching Archaic Talossan as it was first created by Ben in December 1980. What you're doing has nothing to do with its history, and how dare you make these sweeping statements when you don't know the first thing about it?

Instead of Ben, who only ever saw the language he created as a marketing ploy to get nerds to join his kingdom, I would love to see the return of the second person ever to speak Talossan, and the first person to truly love it: Sir Tomás Gariçeir.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 04:52:37 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:48:44 PMAnd you know what? You are NOT fit to be Ladintsch Naziunal if you are not interested in the history of the language. Promoting its use is one thing, but the history of the language is one of the most important aspects of it. There, I said it.

I am interested in its history. That's why I have been, among other things, researching Archaic Talossan as it was first created by Ben in December 1980. What you're doing has nothing to do with its history, and how dare you make these sweeping statements when you don't know the first thing about it?

Instead of Ben, who only ever saw the language he created as a marketing ploy to get nerds to join his kingdom, I would love to see the return of the second person ever to speak Talossan, and the first person to truly love it: Sir Tomás Gariçeir.

Well, looks like we're both in a pickle now, eh?

Whatever perceived benefits this may theoretically bring to Talossa will undoubtedly be overshadowed by an outpouring of decades of grievances that will not do any of us here any favors.

I'm more interested in making sure the government functions well, than stoking up an emotional debate on whether the disgraced ex-king is well-behaved enough now to remigrate.

Quote from: Françal I. Lux on December 27, 2025, 04:54:26 PMWhatever perceived benefits this may theoretically bring to Talossa will undoubtedly be overshadowed by an outpouring of decades of grievances that will not do any of us here any favors.

I'm more interested in making sure the government functions well, than stoking up an emotional debate on whether the disgraced ex-king is well-behaved enough now to remigrate.

I'm interested in that too, but not only the government, but the entire Kingdom!

I just want to circle back on this bit:

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 26, 2025, 03:34:57 PMHis concern of course is to not be subjected to an overtly hostile environment, there being easily a half dozen Quator Astor citizens still at least semi-active here who despise him viscerally; his impression from his last attempt at reconciliation was that those people were still "in charge" and absolutely blacklisting him. 

"Quator Astor" is a misspelling of "Qator Itrìns", Talossan for "Four Stars", i.e. the flag of the Talossan Republic. When Ben last tried to come back, the Seneschal was in fact a former Talossan Republican, i.e. me. I was not convinced he had changed in any way that would mean I could be safe in a political community with him, and I'm still not.

So am I to take from this that Ben wants to come back now because his former political enemies were out of power and he thinks they're no longer a threat to his plans for Talossa? That's a hint on how to take seriously the question of whether there would be any "forgiveness" or "bygones being bygones".

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 27, 2025, 04:56:10 PMI just want to circle back on this bit:

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 26, 2025, 03:34:57 PMHis concern of course is to not be subjected to an overtly hostile environment, there being easily a half dozen Quator Astor citizens still at least semi-active here who despise him viscerally; his impression from his last attempt at reconciliation was that those people were still "in charge" and absolutely blacklisting him. 

"Quator Astor" is a misspelling of "Qator Itrìns", Talossan for "Four Stars", i.e. the flag of the Talossan Republic. When Ben last tried to come back, the Seneschal was in fact a former Talossan Republican, i.e. me. I was not convinced he had changed in any way that would mean I could be safe in a political community with him, and I'm still not.

So am I to take from this that Ben wants to come back now because his former political enemies were out of power and he thinks they're no longer a threat to his plans for Talossa? That's a hint on how to take seriously the question of whether there would be any "forgiveness" or "bygones being bygones".

And how, Madame Schivă, do you suppose he knows that?

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:54:26 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 04:52:37 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:48:44 PMAnd you know what? You are NOT fit to be Ladintsch Naziunal if you are not interested in the history of the language. Promoting its use is one thing, but the history of the language is one of the most important aspects of it. There, I said it.

I am interested in its history. That's why I have been, among other things, researching Archaic Talossan as it was first created by Ben in December 1980. What you're doing has nothing to do with its history, and how dare you make these sweeping statements when you don't know the first thing about it?

Instead of Ben, who only ever saw the language he created as a marketing ploy to get nerds to join his kingdom, I would love to see the return of the second person ever to speak Talossan, and the first person to truly love it: Sir Tomás Gariçeir.

Well, looks like we're both in a pickle now, eh?

I have no idea what you mean by "pickle". Sir Tomás has always been well respected for his services to the language.

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:48:44 PMYou are NOT fit to be Ladintsch Naziunal

I would like the Seneschal and the Minister of Culture, as the political authorities under which the Bureu del Glheþ and the Ladintsch Naziunal are established, to officially disapprove of this attack on the LN. Marcel is qualified to this post for being the most fluent Ladintsch and effective promoter of the language. Not because of his attitude to the man who invented it.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 04:46:17 PMIf you somehow believe that my stance on Ben as a person makes me unqualified to be Ladintsch Naziunal, say it publicly.

He wanted me to, can you blame me? I think not.

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 06:45:03 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 04:46:17 PMIf you somehow believe that my stance on Ben as a person makes me unqualified to be Ladintsch Naziunal, say it publicly.

He wanted me to, can you blame me? I think not.

You are being rude when it is not called for. You've been here a short time and need to learn some humility. Now, S:reu Malt, I am king here and as the king, I'm asking you to stop insulting people and think before you say hasty things that do not help your cause.

-Txec R

In case it can possibly need to be said still, I have every confidence in Tafial as a guide to our language. I do not think his competence is in question, no matter his attitude towards our founder.

Time and time again, when I have needed help with the language, he has been there. This ranges from a full set of assistance with translations when I served as regent to multifaceted and complex assistance with proofreading and ideas on our recent language lessons.

I just fought tooth and nail to ensure he would also be elected Tuischach, even though we are generally associated with different political parties, so my general confidence in his judgment cannot also be in doubt.

I also fully support S:reu Tafial, not just as a member of government, but as a citizen of this nation. It is without question that he is currently the kingdom's premier language expert and has demonstrated time and time again his commitment to our linguistic heritage as Talossans.

These sorts of attacks are not productive *especially* when the goal is to convince the majority of the Ziu (let alone the whole citizenry of Talossa) to support a highly divisive resolution.

@Mximo Malt The changes you have made in response to the stated concerns are helpful. I would note you currently have co-sponsors across three parties including one from the governing party and this is also good as something of this import should be a multipartisan effort. I remain supportive of your effort here and hope that both sides of this divide will work toward reconciliation.

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on December 27, 2025, 08:49:08 PM@Mximo Malt The changes you have made in response to the stated concerns are helpful. I would note you currently have co-sponsors across three parties including one from the governing party and this is also good as something of this import should be a multipartisan effort. I remain supportive of your effort here and hope that both sides of this divide will work toward reconciliation.

Yeah, I'm not really worried about that. Majestas' response to my attack on our National Latinish really made me consider what I'm really fighting for here. I now regret ever saying anything harsh against him and vow never to do this again.

Tafi (if I'm even allowed to call you that anymore), I'm willing to do anything to gain your forgiveness. All I can say is that I'm sorry. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to.

I might as well just shut the hell up now before I cause even more irreparable damage to my reputation.

MM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 08:52:55 PM

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on December 27, 2025, 08:49:08 PM@Mximo Malt The changes you have made in response to the stated concerns are helpful. I would note you currently have co-sponsors across three parties including one from the governing party and this is also good as something of this import should be a multipartisan effort. I remain supportive of your effort here and hope that both sides of this divide will work toward reconciliation.

Yeah, I'm not really worried about that. Majestas' response to my attack on our National Latinish really made me consider what I'm really fighting for here. I now regret ever saying anything harsh against him and vow never to do this again.

Tafi (if I'm even allowed to call you that anymore), I'm willing to do anything to gain your forgiveness. All I can say is that I'm sorry. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to.

I might as well just shut the hell up now before I cause even more irreparable damage to my reputation.

MM

I think committing to refraining from personal attacks in the future would be helpful. Probably not a good approach generally and certainly won't increase support of this bill specifically.

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on December 27, 2025, 08:55:10 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 08:52:55 PM

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on December 27, 2025, 08:49:08 PM@Mximo Malt The changes you have made in response to the stated concerns are helpful. I would note you currently have co-sponsors across three parties including one from the governing party and this is also good as something of this import should be a multipartisan effort. I remain supportive of your effort here and hope that both sides of this divide will work toward reconciliation.

Yeah, I'm not really worried about that. Majestas' response to my attack on our National Latinish really made me consider what I'm really fighting for here. I now regret ever saying anything harsh against him and vow never to do this again.

Tafi (if I'm even allowed to call you that anymore), I'm willing to do anything to gain your forgiveness. All I can say is that I'm sorry. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to.

I might as well just shut the hell up now before I cause even more irreparable damage to my reputation.

MM

I think committing to refraining from personal attacks in the future would be helpful. Probably not a good approach generally and certainly won't increase support of this bill specifically.

BT, this isn't only towards S:reu Tafial. This is towards everyone I have caused harm, including myself and Sua Majestas.

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 08:57:08 PM

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on December 27, 2025, 08:55:10 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 08:52:55 PM

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on December 27, 2025, 08:49:08 PM@Mximo Malt The changes you have made in response to the stated concerns are helpful. I would note you currently have co-sponsors across three parties including one from the governing party and this is also good as something of this import should be a multipartisan effort. I remain supportive of your effort here and hope that both sides of this divide will work toward reconciliation.

Yeah, I'm not really worried about that. Majestas' response to my attack on our National Latinish really made me consider what I'm really fighting for here. I now regret ever saying anything harsh against him and vow never to do this again.

Tafi (if I'm even allowed to call you that anymore), I'm willing to do anything to gain your forgiveness. All I can say is that I'm sorry. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to.

I might as well just shut the hell up now before I cause even more irreparable damage to my reputation.

MM

I think committing to refraining from personal attacks in the future would be helpful. Probably not a good approach generally and certainly won't increase support of this bill specifically.

BT, this isn't only towards S:reu Tafial. This is towards everyone I have caused harm, including myself and Sua Majestas.

I think my statement applies generally as well as to the specific case concerning Marcel, Mximo.

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on December 27, 2025, 08:59:10 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 08:57:08 PM

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on December 27, 2025, 08:55:10 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 08:52:55 PM

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on December 27, 2025, 08:49:08 PM@Mximo Malt The changes you have made in response to the stated concerns are helpful. I would note you currently have co-sponsors across three parties including one from the governing party and this is also good as something of this import should be a multipartisan effort. I remain supportive of your effort here and hope that both sides of this divide will work toward reconciliation.

Yeah, I'm not really worried about that. Majestas' response to my attack on our National Latinish really made me consider what I'm really fighting for here. I now regret ever saying anything harsh against him and vow never to do this again.

Tafi (if I'm even allowed to call you that anymore), I'm willing to do anything to gain your forgiveness. All I can say is that I'm sorry. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to.

I might as well just shut the hell up now before I cause even more irreparable damage to my reputation.

MM

I think committing to refraining from personal attacks in the future would be helpful. Probably not a good approach generally and certainly won't increase support of this bill specifically.

BT, this isn't only towards S:reu Tafial. This is towards everyone I have caused harm, including myself and Sua Majestas.

I think my statement applies generally as well as to the specific case concerning Marcel, Mximo.

THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT I JUST SAID, GOOD LORD HAVE MERCY! 🤦

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 09:01:48 PM

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on December 27, 2025, 08:59:10 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 08:57:08 PM

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on December 27, 2025, 08:55:10 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 08:52:55 PM

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on December 27, 2025, 08:49:08 PM@Mximo Malt The changes you have made in response to the stated concerns are helpful. I would note you currently have co-sponsors across three parties including one from the governing party and this is also good as something of this import should be a multipartisan effort. I remain supportive of your effort here and hope that both sides of this divide will work toward reconciliation.

Yeah, I'm not really worried about that. Majestas' response to my attack on our National Latinish really made me consider what I'm really fighting for here. I now regret ever saying anything harsh against him and vow never to do this again.

Tafi (if I'm even allowed to call you that anymore), I'm willing to do anything to gain your forgiveness. All I can say is that I'm sorry. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to.

I might as well just shut the hell up now before I cause even more irreparable damage to my reputation.

MM

I think committing to refraining from personal attacks in the future would be helpful. Probably not a good approach generally and certainly won't increase support of this bill specifically.

BT, this isn't only towards S:reu Tafial. This is towards everyone I have caused harm, including myself and Sua Majestas.

I think my statement applies generally as well as to the specific case concerning Marcel, Mximo.

THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT I JUST SAID, GOOD LORD HAVE MERCY! 🤦

Lol, I ask for mercy from God every night before sleep. Ok, I understand now.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 27, 2025, 12:03:00 AMGiven that Talossa's transgender community is now large and prominent in public life, perhaps someone should ask Ben Madison whether he still holds to the absolute contempt he expressed for that community in previous decades.

I will ask.  Because I have enough IRL trans friends via sci-fi fandom to be concerned by that as well.

To be fair, knowing who the first trans person he was ever exposed to was, back in the formative 1980's, one of the weird-even-by-other-pagan's-estimation pagans around the university, I can see why he would be initially repulsed and never want to deal with that realm again.  First impressions carry a lot of weight. 

To understand said (now deceased, I've heard) pagan's unhealthy life focuses, I can tell you that s/he was an ardent fan of Jacqueline Lictenberg, Jean Lorrah, and disgraced author Marion Zimmer Bradley.  That's the first impression a trans person has to overcome, interacting with Ben.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 27, 2025, 04:56:10 PMI just want to circle back on this bit:

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 26, 2025, 03:34:57 PMHis concern of course is to not be subjected to an overtly hostile environment, there being easily a half dozen Quator Astor citizens still at least semi-active here who despise him viscerally; his impression from his last attempt at reconciliation was that those people were still "in charge" and absolutely blacklisting him. 

"Quator Astor" is a misspelling of "Qator Itrìns", Talossan for "Four Stars", i.e. the flag of the Talossan Republic. When Ben last tried to come back, the Seneschal was in fact a former Talossan Republican, i.e. me. I was not convinced he had changed in any way that would mean I could be safe in a political community with him, and I'm still not.

So am I to take from this that Ben wants to come back now because his former political enemies were out of power and he thinks they're no longer a threat to his plans for Talossa? That's a hint on how to take seriously the question of whether there would be any "forgiveness" or "bygones being bygones".

First off, my knowledge of ghelp is pretty minimal.  I remember it as astor, maybe there was a newsletter that went by that name or something?  In any case, my bad.  Recall that I had no direct access to things Republican.

Next off, your bias is really showing here, in that you PRESUME he has nefarious "plans", and you are putting the worst possible spin on him simply not wanting to walk into an unremittingly hostile environment!  As it was back then!  Who would want to do that?  Some hostility, given the polarization around his very existence, is expected.  Occasional landmines can be defused; clearing an entire field might be too much of an ask. 

Heck, I'm surprised I've caught as little flak as I have, in returning.  I haven't forgotten that MY previous efforts to rejoin, or even look in on, this Kingdom (Landing Pier style) were unceremoniously and silently rejected. By perhaps the same administration?  But I'm here now, so that can be (and is) forgiven.

The concept of "death of the author" really applies here.  His lived reality, decades in the making, has pretty clearly demonstrated that he can't control what Talossa is, that his creation does just fine without him.  It seems likely to outlive him.  I think he'll be happier about that than anything else.

With a populace as wary of him as modern RT seems to be, such machinations (should they even exist!) are unlikely in the extreme to succeed.  His hands will be on none of the levers of power.

What are you afraid of?

Furthermore, ambition requires energy, something that becomes scarcer for someone in their sixties, as he and I are!

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 30, 2025, 04:37:26 PM

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 27, 2025, 04:56:10 PMI just want to circle back on this bit:

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 26, 2025, 03:34:57 PMHis concern of course is to not be subjected to an overtly hostile environment, there being easily a half dozen Quator Astor citizens still at least semi-active here who despise him viscerally; his impression from his last attempt at reconciliation was that those people were still "in charge" and absolutely blacklisting him. 

"Quator Astor" is a misspelling of "Qator Itrìns", Talossan for "Four Stars", i.e. the flag of the Talossan Republic. When Ben last tried to come back, the Seneschal was in fact a former Talossan Republican, i.e. me. I was not convinced he had changed in any way that would mean I could be safe in a political community with him, and I'm still not.

So am I to take from this that Ben wants to come back now because his former political enemies were out of power and he thinks they're no longer a threat to his plans for Talossa? That's a hint on how to take seriously the question of whether there would be any "forgiveness" or "bygones being bygones".

First off, my knowledge of ghelp is pretty minimal.  I remember it as astor, maybe there was a newsletter that went by that name or something?  In any case, my bad.  Recall that I had no direct access to things Republican.

Next off, your bias is really showing here, in that you PRESUME he has nefarious "plans", and you are putting the worst possible spin on him simply not wanting to walk into an unremittingly hostile environment!  As it was back then!  Who would want to do that?  Some hostility, given the polarization around his very existence, is expected.  Occasional landmines can be defused; clearing an entire field might be too much of an ask. 

Heck, I'm surprised I've caught as little flak as I have, in returning.  I haven't forgotten that MY previous efforts to rejoin, or even look in on, this Kingdom (Landing Pier style) were unceremoniously and silently rejected. By perhaps the same administration?  But I'm here now, so that can be (and is) forgiven.

The concept of "death of the author" really applies here.  His lived reality, decades in the making, has pretty clearly demonstrated that he can't control what Talossa is, that his creation does just fine without him.  It seems likely to outlive him.  I think he'll be happier about that than anything else.

With a populace as wary of him as modern RT seems to be, such machinations (should they even exist!) are unlikely in the extreme to succeed.  His hands will be on none of the levers of power.

What are you afraid of?

Furthermore, ambition requires energy, something that becomes scarcer for someone in their sixties, as he and I are!

PREACH, BROTHER!

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 05:00:18 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:54:26 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 04:52:37 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:48:44 PMAnd you know what? You are NOT fit to be Ladintsch Naziunal if you are not interested in the history of the language. Promoting its use is one thing, but the history of the language is one of the most important aspects of it. There, I said it.

I am interested in its history. That's why I have been, among other things, researching Archaic Talossan as it was first created by Ben in December 1980. What you're doing has nothing to do with its history, and how dare you make these sweeping statements when you don't know the first thing about it?

Instead of Ben, who only ever saw the language he created as a marketing ploy to get nerds to join his kingdom, I would love to see the return of the second person ever to speak Talossan, and the first person to truly love it: Sir Tomás Gariçeir.

Well, looks like we're both in a pickle now, eh?

I have no idea what you mean by "pickle". Sir Tomás has always been well respected for his services to the language.

"Marketing ploy?"  You really do misunderstand him.  He loved languages, period.  He studied Russian, Icelandic, various others -- some of the ghelp's odder elements were retained from its Icelandic influence and inspiration, before the Berber mythology got folded in.  Asserting copyright was NEVER about the money, it was real-world efforts to recover control of "Talossa", something he could point to and say "I created this and deserve to be compensated for my work", as would any published creator.  This move of course ultimately failed.

Bear in mind, at the same time, the Kingdom's webmaster was refusing to release ownership of any web assets to Ben (even when redundant, dotcom versus dotorg) unless he was paid web developer wages for all of the "work" he'd previously volunteered in service for the Kingdom.  There was a LOT of "tit for tat" going on, and at this remove who started it doesn't really matter.  Just realize it was NOT one-sided.  It was never one-sided.

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 30, 2025, 05:02:47 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 05:00:18 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:54:26 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 04:52:37 PMI am interested in its history. That's why I have been, among other things, researching Archaic Talossan as it was first created by Ben in December 1980. What you're doing has nothing to do with its history, and how dare you make these sweeping statements when you don't know the first thing about it?

Instead of Ben, who only ever saw the language he created as a marketing ploy to get nerds to join his kingdom, I would love to see the return of the second person ever to speak Talossan, and the first person to truly love it: Sir Tomás Gariçeir.

Well, looks like we're both in a pickle now, eh?

I have no idea what you mean by "pickle". Sir Tomás has always been well respected for his services to the language.

"Marketing ploy?"  You really do misunderstand him.  He loved languages, period.  He studied Russian, Icelandic, various others -- some of the ghelp's odder elements were retained from its Icelandic influence and inspiration, before the Berber mythology got folded in.  Asserting copyright was NEVER about the money, it was real-world efforts to recover control of "Talossa", something he could point to and say "I created this and deserve to be compensated for my work", as would any published creator.  This move of course ultimately failed.

I never said it was about money. I'm refering to this statement (source (https://talossa.proboards.com/post/3228/thread)):

Quote from: King BenThe language was created to promote Talossa [...]. That is what the language exists for.

, which does leave a bitter taste in my mouth. I would hope that el Glheþ is more than merely a promotional vehicle for Talossa.

Evidently, I'm not the only one who read it like that (source (https://talossa.proboards.com/post/3241/thread)):

Quote from: Tomás GariçeirIf things have degenerated so much that the Talossan language now exists "only to promote Talossa", then for Heaven's sake, somebody let me know and I will not waste another second working on it. The day that our venerable, beautiful, noble language becomes nothing more than a mere marketing tool to attract new members for our little club, whose use is restricted to the tiny handful of human beings in the world who are members of our little club and have received "authorisation", is the day I pack my bags and join the Republic.

I understand that you were there when it happened, so it's a bit silly for me to quote 20 year old forum posts at you, but in retrospect it's difficult to read though these threads and not get that impression.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 30, 2025, 05:13:55 PM

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 30, 2025, 05:02:47 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 05:00:18 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:54:26 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 04:52:37 PMI am interested in its history. That's why I have been, among other things, researching Archaic Talossan as it was first created by Ben in December 1980. What you're doing has nothing to do with its history, and how dare you make these sweeping statements when you don't know the first thing about it?

Instead of Ben, who only ever saw the language he created as a marketing ploy to get nerds to join his kingdom, I would love to see the return of the second person ever to speak Talossan, and the first person to truly love it: Sir Tomás Gariçeir.

Well, looks like we're both in a pickle now, eh?

I have no idea what you mean by "pickle". Sir Tomás has always been well respected for his services to the language.

"Marketing ploy?"  You really do misunderstand him.  He loved languages, period.  He studied Russian, Icelandic, various others -- some of the ghelp's odder elements were retained from its Icelandic influence and inspiration, before the Berber mythology got folded in.  Asserting copyright was NEVER about the money, it was real-world efforts to recover control of "Talossa", something he could point to and say "I created this and deserve to be compensated for my work", as would any published creator.  This move of course ultimately failed.

I never said it was about money. I'm refering to this statement (source (https://talossa.proboards.com/post/3228/thread)):

Quote from: King BenThe language was created to promote Talossa [...]. That is what the language exists for.

, which does leave a bitter taste in my mouth. I would hope that el Glheþ is more than merely a promotional vehicle for Talossa.

Evidently, I'm not the only one who read it like that (source (https://talossa.proboards.com/post/3228/thread)):

Quote from: Tomás GariçeirIf things have degenerated so much that the Talossan language now exists "only to promote Talossa", then for Heaven's sake, somebody let me know and I will not waste another second working on it. The day that our venerable, beautiful, noble language becomes nothing more than a mere marketing tool to attract new members for our little club, whose use is restricted to the tiny handful of human beings in the world who are members of our little club and have received "authorisation", is the day I pack my bags and join the Republic.

I understand that you were there when it happened, so it's a bit silly for me to quote 20 year old forum posts at you, but in retrospect it's difficult not to read though these things and not get that impression.

20 Year old posts I had no access to, at that, {shrug}.

"Promotion" is a slippery concept, especially in the commercialized internet age.  Using Talossan for promotion was a feature to mention, in order to to attract other language nerds, to say "hey look, we have something other micronations don't!", promotion in that sense.

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 30, 2025, 04:37:26 PMWhat are you afraid of?

I'm afraid, if Ben doesn't accept that he acted like an asshole back then, exactly the same thing will happen when he gets back. I know that people can change over decades; I certainly have, and I have acted like all kind of bodily orifices in my time, and I like to think I've changed my ways. But I would require long-term evidence of such behaviour before I can feel comfortable. Such as: "Landing Pier style access for a number of months, just to show he plays nice these days".

Talossa is of course a voluntary entity, and I'm sure a lot of people here might prefer to have Ben back than me around, and they might just get that wish. But this isn't a "Ben's going to overthrow the state" thing (although I believe there are some people who'd love the restoration of his monarchy!). It's a "Ben will make Talossan life intolerable for me, personally".

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 30, 2025, 04:37:26 PMI haven't forgotten that MY previous efforts to rejoin, or even look in on, this Kingdom (Landing Pier style) were unceremoniously and silently rejected

I don't know what this is referring to.

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 30, 2025, 04:39:04 PMThe concept of "death of the author" really applies here.  His lived reality, decades in the making, has pretty clearly demonstrated that he can't control what Talossa is, that his creation does just fine without him.  It seems likely to outlive him.  I think he'll be happier about that than anything else.

With a populace as wary of him as modern RT seems to be, such machinations (should they even exist!) are unlikely in the extreme to succeed.  His hands will be on none of the levers of power.

This is an important point. Further, his ability to gain any new power are dependent on successful efforts at reconciliation. If there are concerns about potential disruptive behavior on Witt then one would simply remember we now have The Consequences Act passed last term.

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 30, 2025, 05:29:53 PM"Promotion" is a slippery concept, especially in the commercialized internet age.  Using Talossan for promotion was a feature to mention, in order to to attract other language nerds, to say "hey look, we have something other micronations don't!", promotion in that sense.

See, he gets it! Btw, I'm something of a language nerd myself, which is why I'm trying to find the origin of most Talossan words for my literary Latin experiment.

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 30, 2025, 04:11:27 PMknowing who the first trans person he was ever exposed to was, back in the formative 1980's, one of the weird-even-by-other-pagan's-estimation pagans around the university

Ha ha, so you mean that one Wiccan who poisoned himself against that whole faith was also trans? No wonder he hated me with the heat of 1000 suns...

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 30, 2025, 05:29:53 PM"Promotion" is a slippery concept, especially in the commercialized internet age.  Using Talossan for promotion was a feature to mention, in order to to attract other language nerds, to say "hey look, we have something other micronations don't!", promotion in that sense.

Right, I understand that. But even in that sense, reducing the language to just a means of promotion is, in my opinion as a language nerd, doing it a massive disservice. And I also understand Sir Tomás' upset: I, too, wouldn't like to be told that I've spend literal years of my life studying and advancing a promotional tool.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 30, 2025, 06:07:33 PM

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 30, 2025, 05:29:53 PM"Promotion" is a slippery concept, especially in the commercialized internet age.  Using Talossan for promotion was a feature to mention, in order to to attract other language nerds, to say "hey look, we have something other micronations don't!", promotion in that sense.

Right, I understand that. But even in that sense, reducing the language to just a means of promotion is, in my opinion as a language nerd, doing it a massive disservice. And I also understand Sir Tomás' upset: I, too, wouldn't like to be told that I've spend literal years of my life studying and advancing a promotional tool.

I understand it's a constructed language in reality, but it feels like a real historical language, it's amazing!

The quot

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 30, 2025, 06:07:33 PMeven in that sense, reducing the language to just a means of promotion is, in my opinion as a language nerd, doing it a massive disservice. And I also understand Sir Tomás' upset: I, too, wouldn't like to be told that I've spend literal years of my life studying and advancing a promotional tool.

The quote I remember from the time was Ben quoting from some fact-sheet he wrote in 1981 saying "Talossan is only spoken by inhabitants of Talossa", and using that as an argument suggesting that it was impermissible for anyone else, i.e. me, to learn or speak it.

This is language submitted to political/state objectives and I consider it improper, like Russia trying to eliminate the Ukrainian language in occupied Donetsk.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 30, 2025, 06:12:05 PMThe quot

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 30, 2025, 06:07:33 PMeven in that sense, reducing the language to just a means of promotion is, in my opinion as a language nerd, doing it a massive disservice. And I also understand Sir Tomás' upset: I, too, wouldn't like to be told that I've spend literal years of my life studying and advancing a promotional tool.

The quote I remember from the time was Ben quoting from some fact-sheet he wrote in 1981 saying "Talossan is only spoken by inhabitants of Talossa", and using that as an argument suggesting that it was impermissible for anyone else, i.e. me, to learn or speak it.

This is language submitted to political/state objectives and I consider it improper, like Russia trying to eliminate the Ukrainian language in occupied Donetsk.

Respectfully, Madame Schivă, I believe the point RBM was trying to make is that Talossan was only well-known by people in Talossa, not necessarily that Talossan was "forbidden" from being spoken outside Talossa. It kinda sounds like you're not allowed to speak Hebrew outside of "Israel", well, לא יש לי בושה להיות דובר אחד של השפה עברית!

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 30, 2025, 06:20:59 PMI believe the point RBM was trying to make is that Talossan was only well-known by people in Talossa, not necessarily that Talossan was "forbidden" from being spoken outside Talossa.

No, that was exactly the argument he was making. Namely, that people who are not already citizens need some sort of permission to be able to learn and speak Talossan, lest they commit plagiarism and copyright infringement. You can read that in the links I posted as source.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 30, 2025, 06:26:07 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 30, 2025, 06:20:59 PMI believe the point RBM was trying to make is that Talossan was only well-known by people in Talossa, not necessarily that Talossan was "forbidden" from being spoken outside Talossa.

No, that was exactly the argument he was making. Namely, that people who are not already citizens need some sort of permission to be able to learn and speak Talossan, lest they commit plagiarism and copyright infringement. You can read that in the links I posted as source.

Va c'hupă, S:reu Tafial! Point aside, I'm not sure there's much he can do about it now since we all speak it without his consent 🤣

Maybe he'll be happy that we're still using it and take it as the greatest form of national pride! That's how I see our Glheþ, as an expression of our Talossan identity!

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 30, 2025, 06:26:45 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 30, 2025, 06:26:07 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 30, 2025, 06:20:59 PMI believe the point RBM was trying to make is that Talossan was only well-known by people in Talossa, not necessarily that Talossan was "forbidden" from being spoken outside Talossa.

No, that was exactly the argument he was making. Namely, that people who are not already citizens need some sort of permission to be able to learn and speak Talossan, lest they commit plagiarism and copyright infringement. You can read that in the links I posted as source.

Va c'hupă, S:reu Tafial! Point aside, I'm not sure there's much he can do about it now since we all speak it without his consent 🤣

Maybe he'll be happy that we're still using it and take it as the greatest form of national pride! That's how I see our Glheþ, as an expression of our Talossan identity!

The point could be made that el Ghelþ is still spoken with the consent of the king as the throne is still occupied and has been so since his former Majesty abdicated. (Though there have been some regencies along the way).

-Txec R

Quote from: King Txec on December 30, 2025, 07:10:32 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 30, 2025, 06:26:45 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 30, 2025, 06:26:07 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 30, 2025, 06:20:59 PMI believe the point RBM was trying to make is that Talossan was only well-known by people in Talossa, not necessarily that Talossan was "forbidden" from being spoken outside Talossa.

No, that was exactly the argument he was making. Namely, that people who are not already citizens need some sort of permission to be able to learn and speak Talossan, lest they commit plagiarism and copyright infringement. You can read that in the links I posted as source.

Va c'hupă, S:reu Tafial! Point aside, I'm not sure there's much he can do about it now since we all speak it without his consent 🤣

Maybe he'll be happy that we're still using it and take it as the greatest form of national pride! That's how I see our Glheþ, as an expression of our Talossan identity!

The point could be made that el Ghelþ is still spoken with the consent of the king as the throne is still occupied and has been so since his former Majesty abdicated. (Though there have been some regencies along the way).

-Txec R

I understand that the throne is occupied as you are living proof of that, sorry if it sounded confusing, Majestas.

Quote from: Barclamïu da Miéletz on December 31, 2025, 11:41:55 AM

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 30, 2025, 06:12:05 PMlike Russia trying to eliminate the Ukrainian language in occupied Donetsk

Irrelevant but any part of Ukraine east of the Dnepr speaks Russian arleady anyway, also inhabited by Russians. Ukrainian is spoken instead anywhere west of the Dnepr, also inhabited by actual Ukrainians.

This is not true at all, and in fact is Russian propaganda. Eastern Ukrainians are not "Russians" just because Russian (or surzhyk, Russian-Ukrainian pidgin) is their first language. Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who comes from Kryvyi Riv in south-eastern Ukraine, speaks Russian as his first language. Most of Ireland speaks English as their first language but they kind of take murderous exception if you say they're English.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 31, 2025, 04:58:55 PM

Quote from: Barclamïu da Miéletz on December 31, 2025, 11:41:55 AM

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 30, 2025, 06:12:05 PMlike Russia trying to eliminate the Ukrainian language in occupied Donetsk

Irrelevant but any part of Ukraine east of the Dnepr speaks Russian arleady anyway, also inhabited by Russians. Ukrainian is spoken instead anywhere west of the Dnepr, also inhabited by actual Ukrainians.

This is not true at all, and in fact is Russian propaganda. Eastern Ukrainians are not "Russians" just because Russian (or surzhyk, Russian-Ukrainian pidgin) is their first language. Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who comes from Kryvyi Riv in south-eastern Ukraine, speaks Russian as his first language. Most of Ireland speaks English as their first language but they kind of take murderous exception if you say they're English.

I really hate that part about Ireland...

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 31, 2025, 04:59:35 PMI really hate that part about Ireland...

So do I, and so do many Irish, but this is what happens when, after independence, Ireland was still a poor country dependent on labour migration to the UK or the US and so speaking English was still an economic necessity.

My sympathy is still with Ireland's first ambassador to the League of Nation, who always addressed that body in French, because he could not speak Irish and he'd be damned if he'd speak English.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 31, 2025, 05:01:00 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 31, 2025, 04:59:35 PMI really hate that part about Ireland...

So do I, and so do many Irish, but this is what happens when, after independence, Ireland was still a poor country dependent on labour migration to the UK or the US and so speaking English was still an economic necessity.

My sympathy is still with Ireland's first ambassador to the League of Nation, who always addressed that body in French, because he could not speak Irish and he'd be damned if he'd speak English.

Yk I really wish everyone spoke French rather than English as the global lingua franca (and Gaeilge as the main language in Éire)

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 31, 2025, 05:03:44 PMYk I really wish everyone spoke French rather than English as the global lingua franca (and Gaeilge as the main language in Éire)

Well, then we would still have the same problems except that except Anglos being complacent, itd be Francophones. It wouldn't actually solve anything.

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 31, 2025, 05:03:44 PM

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 31, 2025, 05:01:00 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 31, 2025, 04:59:35 PMI really hate that part about Ireland...

So do I, and so do many Irish, but this is what happens when, after independence, Ireland was still a poor country dependent on labour migration to the UK or the US and so speaking English was still an economic necessity.

My sympathy is still with Ireland's first ambassador to the League of Nation, who always addressed that body in French, because he could not speak Irish and he'd be damned if he'd speak English.

Yk I really wish everyone spoke French rather than English as the global lingua franca (and Gaeilge as the main language in Éire)

Give it a few more years and what's left of humanity will be speaking either Russian or Chinese

Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on December 31, 2025, 05:06:10 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 31, 2025, 05:03:44 PM

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 31, 2025, 05:01:00 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 31, 2025, 04:59:35 PMI really hate that part about Ireland...

So do I, and so do many Irish, but this is what happens when, after independence, Ireland was still a poor country dependent on labour migration to the UK or the US and so speaking English was still an economic necessity.

My sympathy is still with Ireland's first ambassador to the League of Nation, who always addressed that body in French, because he could not speak Irish and he'd be damned if he'd speak English.

Yk I really wish everyone spoke French rather than English as the global lingua franca (and Gaeilge as the main language in Éire)

Give it a few more years and what's left of humanity will be speaking either Russian or Chinese

I'd lean towards Russian (it sounds so pretty to me)

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 31, 2025, 05:06:48 PM

Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on December 31, 2025, 05:06:10 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 31, 2025, 05:03:44 PM

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 31, 2025, 05:01:00 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 31, 2025, 04:59:35 PMI really hate that part about Ireland...

So do I, and so do many Irish, but this is what happens when, after independence, Ireland was still a poor country dependent on labour migration to the UK or the US and so speaking English was still an economic necessity.

My sympathy is still with Ireland's first ambassador to the League of Nation, who always addressed that body in French, because he could not speak Irish and he'd be damned if he'd speak English.

Yk I really wish everyone spoke French rather than English as the global lingua franca (and Gaeilge as the main language in Éire)

Give it a few more years and what's left of humanity will be speaking either Russian or Chinese

I'd lean towards Russian (it sounds so pretty to me)

I doubt we will get to choose

Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on December 31, 2025, 05:07:17 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 31, 2025, 05:06:48 PM

Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on December 31, 2025, 05:06:10 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 31, 2025, 05:03:44 PM

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 31, 2025, 05:01:00 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 31, 2025, 04:59:35 PMI really hate that part about Ireland...

So do I, and so do many Irish, but this is what happens when, after independence, Ireland was still a poor country dependent on labour migration to the UK or the US and so speaking English was still an economic necessity.

My sympathy is still with Ireland's first ambassador to the League of Nation, who always addressed that body in French, because he could not speak Irish and he'd be damned if he'd speak English.

Yk I really wish everyone spoke French rather than English as the global lingua franca (and Gaeilge as the main language in Éire)

Give it a few more years and what's left of humanity will be speaking either Russian or Chinese

I'd lean towards Russian (it sounds so pretty to me)

I doubt we will get to choose

I meant to say "I hope it's Russian"

Actually, I believe we have strayed too far from the main topic of this thread, namely the "Sense of the Ziu: Restoration of National Honour". If I can't compel MZs to get back on topic, I would least highly encourage everyone to do so.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 31, 2025, 05:11:15 PMActually, I believe we have strayed too far from the main topic of this thread, namely the "Sense of the Ziu: Restoration of National Honour". If I can't compel MZs to get back on topic, I would least highly encourage everyone to do so.

Yeah sorry bout that :P

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 31, 2025, 05:03:44 PMYk I really wish everyone spoke French rather than English as the global lingua franca (and Gaeilge as the main language in Éire)

We should all actually speak Polish as the global lingua franca.

Quote from: Barclamïu da Miéletz on December 31, 2025, 07:02:21 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 31, 2025, 05:03:44 PMYk I really wish everyone spoke French rather than English as the global lingua franca (and Gaeilge as the main language in Éire)

We should all actually speak Polish as the global lingua franca.

If the Polish cow song becomes popular again we just might (last time I'll go off topic I promise)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm waiting for a callback from Ben.  He & I are planning to have lunch sometime, probably a weekend.  Would have been this past weekend if I hadn't been dead to the world for most of it.

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on January 12, 2026, 05:26:05 PMI'm waiting for a callback from Ben.  He & I are planning to have lunch sometime, probably a weekend.  Would have been this past weekend if I hadn't been dead to the world for most of it.

Cool. I sent him a message, but let him know I'm personally inviting him as the leader of the country to create a guest account for the Landing Pier. I don't think we're ready to have him jump right back in, but we would love to start a conversation about that.