Wittenberg

Do we currently have Identity Cards that can be purchased/obtained? I saw a post about a questionnaire to obtain one but not sure if we have the option to have one as of yet.

Quote from: Caleb Frenibuerg on March 11, 2022, 02:38:18 PM
Do we currently have Identity Cards that can be purchased/obtained? I saw a post about a questionnaire to obtain one but not sure if we have the option to have one as of yet.

I think the cards are still in the planning stages.

The design I created years ago has been updated by an amazing citizen volunteer and is ready to go in a more modern incarnation. I believe the current plan from the incumbent Government is not to give them out yet, until they finish developing and administer a test that must be passed before you can get an ID card. Last I saw, about 20 questions have been written out of a planned 50 (I think).

I am looking forward to the next Government finishing this project.

I'm not really sure we should wait to get a test written and administered before we do them.  ID cards are way overdue, since it's been years since the last time they were issued (when I was MinCult, a long time ago).  I'd suggest that for this new run, we should maybe offer them to every citizen without delay.  We can still develop the test and offer it for this or another purpose, but people have been waiting for literally years... let's not make them wait anymore.

If I may, I'd like to suggest S:reu Autófil have a go at the design and have it improved before the project is finalized.

S:reu Autofil is quite talented. I am looking forward to seeing what he ends up cooking up.

Quote from: Danihel Txechescu on March 16, 2022, 06:11:55 PM
If I may, I'd like to suggest S:reu Autófil have a go at the design and have it improved before the project is finalized.

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on March 16, 2022, 07:41:31 PM
S:reu Autofil is quite talented. I am looking forward to seeing what he ends up cooking up.

I would be honored to help provide input. Thank you both. ;D

What does everyone think of this as an obverse side? It's not as colorful as S:reu Txechescu's, to be sure, but it's intended to be pretty legible and I totally didn't spend way too long tinkering on the gradient transparency for the flag to get it just right, I swear

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 03:21:45 AM
What does everyone think of this as an obverse side? It's not as colorful as S:reu Txechescu's, to be sure, but it's intended to be pretty legible and I totally didn't spend way too long tinkering on the gradient transparency for the flag to get it just right, I swear

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/946207216275443735/954293294509207582/ID_Card.png)

Off the top of my head, the only thing I'd change is "Däts da Talossanità" to "Däts da Veitaziun" and reversing the gradient of the flag lol. I appreciate that the Talossan headings come first. :D

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 03:21:45 AM
What does everyone think of this as an obverse side? It's not as colorful as S:reu Txechescu's, to be sure, but it's intended to be pretty legible and I totally didn't spend way too long tinkering on the gradient transparency for the flag to get it just right, I swear

snipped

Charismatic profile photo there! ;)

May I ask generally what our intended goal of these IDs is, or what purpose they would serve? I like the idea, but unless we have a means to manifest them physically, mail them to citizens, and use them from time to time (not even often), I do not see a cause beyond vanity.

Vanity may be a good cause, to be clear. I wondered only if vanity were the only cause?

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 03:21:45 AM
What does everyone think of this as an obverse side? It's not as colorful as S:reu Txechescu's, to be sure, but it's intended to be pretty legible and I totally didn't spend way too long tinkering on the gradient transparency for the flag to get it just right, I swear

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/946207216275443735/954293294509207582/ID_Card.png)

I love the design!, and definitely the size of the picture is much better.

However, please pick up as much as possible from the previous iteration on your new design, since those elements were all taken from published standards:
* person must be facing the camera (ISO/IEC39794 part 5),
* dates must commence with day (ICAO 9303 part 3),
* sex must be indicated for the second language in italic font style (ICAO 9303 part 3),
* issuing state and type of document must go first at the top (ICAO 9303 part 5).

And two more things:
1) Looks like I made a mistake with the size of the captions, which ought to be 1.8 mm in height _at most_ (I did 1.8 for fields and 2.2 for captions), as per ICAO 9303 part 3. I see it happening here too.
2) My recommendation was to not use the citizen number as the document number, since more than one could be issued (as replacement, due to new requirements, etcetera). I encoded the citizen number in the document number as I wanted that bit to be there, and the latter is a mandatory element as per ICAO 9303 part 5.

I spent countless hours ensuring this was compliant with all those standards, and I believe the end result is 100% legal. If that's one thing worth pursuing, let's make sure we don't deviate too much from that.

Quote from: Iac Marscheir on March 18, 2022, 10:13:23 AMOff the top of my head, the only thing I'd change is "Däts da Talossanità" to "Däts da Veitaziun" and reversing the gradient of the flag lol. I appreciate that the Talossan headings come first. :D

Ah, I tried to have that in there as a little nod to Talossan culture for those in the know.

Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 10:25:12 AMCharismatic profile photo there! ;)

May I ask generally what our intended goal of these IDs is, or what purpose they would serve? I like the idea, but unless we have a means to manifest them physically, mail them to citizens, and use them from time to time (not even often), I do not see a cause beyond vanity.

Vanity may be a good cause, to be clear. I wondered only if vanity were the only cause?

As citizens of a nation born as a vanity project, what greater cause could there be for Talossa than vanity? ;)

And in my defense, it beats the heck out of my actual license photo, in part due to the simple fact that Wisconsin prints them in grayscale...

Quote from: Danihel Txechescu on March 18, 2022, 11:26:17 AMI love the design!, and definitely the size of the picture is much better.

However, please pick up as much as possible from the previous iteration on your new design, since those elements were all taken from published standards:
* person must be facing the camera (ISO/IEC39794 part 5),
* dates must commence with day (ICAO 9303 part 3),
* sex must be indicated for the second language in italic font style (ICAO 9303 part 3),
* issuing state and type of document must go first at the top (ICAO 9303 part 5).

And two more things:
1) Looks like I made a mistake with the size of the captions, which ought to be 1.8 mm in height _at most_ (I did 1.8 for fields and 2.2 for captions), as per ICAO 9303 part 3. I see it happening here too.
2) My recommendation was to not use the citizen number as the document number, since more than one could be issued (as replacement, due to new requirements, etcetera). I encoded the citizen number in the document number as I wanted that bit to be there, and the latter is a mandatory element as per ICAO 9303 part 5.

I spent countless hours ensuring this was compliant with all those standards, and I believe the end result is 100% legal. If that's one thing worth pursuing, let's make sure we don't deviate too much from that.

This is all good to know! Admittedly I was mostly trying to get the overall design down at this point, but it is good to know the ISO standard I'm looking for (I had ISO-7810 already for the size, this is in compliance with that). You used a mix of ISO and ICAO, though?

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 12:15:11 PM

Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 10:25:12 AMCharismatic profile photo there! ;)

May I ask generally what our intended goal of these IDs is, or what purpose they would serve? I like the idea, but unless we have a means to manifest them physically, mail them to citizens, and use them from time to time (not even often), I do not see a cause beyond vanity.

Vanity may be a good cause, to be clear. I wondered only if vanity were the only cause?

As citizens of a nation born as a vanity project, what greater cause could there be for Talossa than vanity? ;)

And in my defense, it beats the heck out of my actual license photo, in part due to the simple fact that Wisconsin prints them in grayscale...

No defense needed. Your passion and skill are recognized and admired.

If vanity be the only cause, then so be it. I merely wondered.

Also, regarding the grayscale: eeewwww. Even Kansas, Missouri, Washington, Florida, and Georgia can print their licenses in color!

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 12:15:11 PMThis is all good to know! Admittedly I was mostly trying to get the overall design down at this point, but it is good to know the ISO standard I'm looking for (I had ISO-7810 already for the size, this is in compliance with that). You used a mix of ISO and ICAO, though?

Yup. ICAO 9303 builds upon a bunch of other standards (like ISO/IEC's 7810 and 3166). In fact, Document 9303 is the same as ISO/IEC 7501 BUT is freely available. I mentioned that here and posted some SVG files too: http://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=700.msg8979#msg8979 (http://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=700.msg8979#msg8979).

There's SO MUCH behind such little thingies, always there, that I had no idea about.

After integrating much of the feedback -- as well as doing my best to make these ISO- and ICAO-compliant, I submit the following:


Please ignore that I look thoroughly pissed off in my passport photo LMAO

Dates updated to the correct DD.MM.YYYY format, but including the Talossan year.

Document number is [Last Initial][4-digit Citizen #][Year of issue][Check digit][Version/edition, starting at A]. Check digit is a wee bit simpler than its ICAO counterpart: take the value of each non-check digit (or 1-26 if it's a letter), including the edition, sum each of them, square that, and sum up the value of those digits. If over 26, take each of the digits of that sum and sum those, at which point you really should be under 26. Assign a letter based on the value gotten.

As an example, mine is A055122-A. A = 1. 1+0+5+5+1+2+2+1=17. 17^2=289. 2+8+9=19. The 19th letter of the alphabet is S.

I actually thought the design for the back was pretty good as it was, although from my reading of ICAO 9303 the Machine Readable Zone is supposed to have a white background. I'll freely admit I could be misinterpreting that out of caution, though. (And as luck would have it, we do actually have the same check digit on the second line.)

Arms shown here are for display / template purposes, and also for a chuckle.

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 22, 2022, 01:10:22 AM
After integrating much of the feedback -- as well as doing my best to make these ISO- and ICAO-compliant, I submit the following:
[...]
Document number is [Last Initial][4-digit Citizen #][Year of issue][Check digit][Version/edition, starting at A]. Check digit is a wee bit simpler than its ICAO counterpart: take the value of each non-check digit (or 1-26 if it's a letter), including the edition, sum each of them, square that, and sum up the value of those digits. If over 26, take each of the digits of that sum and sum those, at which point you really should be under 26. Assign a letter based on the value gotten.

As an example, mine is A055122-A. A = 1. 1+0+5+5+1+2+2+1=17. 17^2=289. 2+8+9=19. The 19th letter of the alphabet is S.

I don't particularly see a strong case of a check digit there, and feel that the last (name?) initial should definitely not be at the beginning or be there at all. I like the series (version/edition) at the beginning or in both the beginning and end:
* issuance series + citizen + year + serial, such as A05512200 or 05512200,
* issuance series + year + citizen + serial, such as A22055100 or 22055100.

In any case, I'm not married to any format. I'm just thinking that it needs to be easily tracked by the government (in a spreadsheet/database) and relatively straight-forward to generate.

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 22, 2022, 01:10:22 AM
I actually thought the design for the back was pretty good as it was, although from my reading of ICAO 9303 the Machine Readable Zone is supposed to have a white background. I'll freely admit I could be misinterpreting that out of caution, though. (And as luck would have it, we do actually have the same check digit on the second line.) [...]

I thought so too initially, but then I saw a bunch of actual passports (like my own) and cards (like visas I've been issued) that have a non-blank background in the MRZ. That opens up *a huge* opportunity to space the overall design. I guess the requirement is for it to have sufficient contrast.

Now, you're the one with the keen eye on design and you've probably seen my preference, but I'm not in love with the font for the captions on the front.

Maybe the two elements of Zone I can coexist at the same baseline level since they are of differing colors (might be a little tight).

I still believe that there should be both the Talossan/English captions for Sex, even when it's unspecified.

The Document number field is missing its Talossan translation.

All in all, I think it's brilliant.

Two things:

@Mic'haglh Autófil  "Númerul dal Documenteu" is grammatically incorrect. "Documenteu" is masculine, so it would be "Númerul del Documenteu", but instead I'd suggest "Númeul da Documenteu" since it fits the style of the other labels, or its abbreviated form "N:reu da Doc." (yes, the abbreviated form of númerul is n:reu, don't ask me why.)

Quote from: Danihel Txechescu on March 22, 2022, 06:57:37 PM
I still believe that there should be both the Talossan/English captions for Sex, even when it's unspecified.

If you mean that the sex should be listed in both Talossan and English, then linguistically there'd be no need for it. The Talossan and English words (maschcel ~ male, femnel ~ female) happen to have the same first letters, so listing it once would be sufficient. I havent read ICAO 9303 part 3 myself though, so maybe it's still necessary?

Quote from: Danihel Txechescu on March 22, 2022, 06:57:37 PMI don't particularly see a strong case of a check digit there, and feel that the last (name?) initial should definitely not be at the beginning or be there at all. I like the series (version/edition) at the beginning or in both the beginning and end:
* issuance series + citizen + year + serial, such as A05512200 or 05512200,
* issuance series + year + citizen + serial, such as A22055100 or 22055100.

In any case, I'm not married to any format. I'm just thinking that it needs to be easily tracked by the government (in a spreadsheet/database) and relatively straight-forward to generate.

Fair enough! Sort of thing we can hammer out as the design progresses, no need to have it done immediately.

Quote

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 22, 2022, 01:10:22 AM
I actually thought the design for the back was pretty good as it was, although from my reading of ICAO 9303 the Machine Readable Zone is supposed to have a white background. I'll freely admit I could be misinterpreting that out of caution, though. (And as luck would have it, we do actually have the same check digit on the second line.) [...]

I thought so too initially, but then I saw a bunch of actual passports (like my own) and cards (like visas I've been issued) that have a non-blank background in the MRZ. That opens up *a huge* opportunity to space the overall design. I guess the requirement is for it to have sufficient contrast.

That does definitely open up some pathways for us. Let me play around with it some more then. We'll need to keep the "mostly transparent layers" going on, for reasons of contrast, but we have more options.

QuoteNow, you're the one with the keen eye on design and you've probably seen my preference, but I'm not in love with the font for the captions on the front.

That's far overselling me, but I appreciate it. ;D  Is there something specific about the font you don't like? I'm always open to changes, maybe if I know what seems off about it I can find a better option more easily.

QuoteMaybe the two elements of Zone I can coexist at the same baseline level since they are of differing colors (might be a little tight).

It will definitely be tight, but I can at least double-check to see if there isn't a way to make it work.

QuoteI still believe that there should be both the Talossan/English captions for Sex, even when it's unspecified.

The Document number field is missing its Talossan translation.

See below

QuoteAll in all, I think it's brilliant.

Thank you!

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on March 22, 2022, 07:08:47 PM
Two things:

@Mic'haglh Autófil  "Númerul dal Documenteu" is grammatically incorrect. "Documenteu" is masculine, so it would be "Númerul del Documenteu", but instead I'd suggest "Númeul da Documenteu" since it fits the style of the other labels, or its abbreviated form "N:reu da Doc." (yes, the abbreviated form of númerul is n:reu, don't ask me why.)

Quote from: Danihel Txechescu on March 22, 2022, 06:57:37 PM
I still believe that there should be both the Talossan/English captions for Sex, even when it's unspecified.

If you mean that the sex should be listed in both Talossan and English, then linguistically there'd be no need for it. The Talossan and English words (maschcel ~ male, femnel ~ female) happen to have the same first letters, so listing it once would be sufficient. I havent read ICAO 9303 part 3 myself though, so maybe it's still necessary?

Regarding point one: thank you for the correction! No better way to have a crash course in a language, I suppose  :P
On top of that, using the abbreviated form will permit me to put the English translation, since as it stands there isn't really enough space.

Regarding point two: ICAO 9303-5 (relevant for ID-1 size documents -- like these) reads:

As such, translation into English would yield the exact same initial, so we should really only use one.

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 22, 2022, 01:10:22 AM
After integrating much of the feedback -- as well as doing my best to make these ISO- and ICAO-compliant, I submit the following:

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/946207216275443735/955695880747507712/ID_Card.png)   (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/946207216275443735/955705899832475648/ID_Card_Reverse.png)

Please ignore that I look thoroughly pissed off in my passport photo LMAO

Dates updated to the correct DD.MM.YYYY format, but including the Talossan year.

Document number is [Last Initial][4-digit Citizen #][Year of issue][Check digit][Version/edition, starting at A]. Check digit is a wee bit simpler than its ICAO counterpart: take the value of each non-check digit (or 1-26 if it's a letter), including the edition, sum each of them, square that, and sum up the value of those digits. If over 26, take each of the digits of that sum and sum those, at which point you really should be under 26. Assign a letter based on the value gotten.

As an example, mine is A055122-A. A = 1. 1+0+5+5+1+2+2+1=17. 17^2=289. 2+8+9=19. The 19th letter of the alphabet is S.

I actually thought the design for the back was pretty good as it was, although from my reading of ICAO 9303 the Machine Readable Zone is supposed to have a white background. I'll freely admit I could be misinterpreting that out of caution, though. (And as luck would have it, we do actually have the same check digit on the second line.)

Arms shown here are for display / template purposes, and also for a chuckle.

I'm thinking the bunch of letters and numbers on the bottom could be a bit smaller. Maybe so it only takes up 1/4 of the card.

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 22, 2022, 08:24:55 PM

Quote from: Danihel Txechescu on March 22, 2022, 06:57:37 PM[...]
Now, you're the one with the keen eye on design and you've probably seen my preference, but I'm not in love with the font for the captions on the front.

That's far overselling me, but I appreciate it. ;D  Is there something specific about the font you don't like? I'm always open to changes, maybe if I know what seems off about it I can find a better option more easily.

I think a less blocky font would fit better here, and seems to be more often used in documents of this kind.

Quote from: Danihel Txechescu on March 22, 2022, 06:57:37 PM
I still believe that there should be both the Talossan/English captions for Sex, even when it's unspecified.

Quote[...] Regarding point two: ICAO 9303-5 (relevant for ID-1 size documents -- like these) reads:

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/946207216275443735/955998952463925258/unknown.png)

As such, translation into English would yield the exact same initial, so we should really only use one.

Please see the Appendix A to part 5. It lists F / F for English/French, even though the same initials would be used in both M and F.

I've got to say: I'm absolutely delighted to see that we're discussing standards! Whatever the outcome, this is a whole new level of work!

Quote from: Caleb Frenibuerg on March 22, 2022, 10:12:09 PMI'm thinking the bunch of letters and numbers on the bottom could be a bit smaller. Maybe so it only takes up 1/4 of the card.

I would agree, but if we're trying to go with the actual standards here -- which was Danihel's idea and I think he deserves credit there, it's a grült idea -- this is the size they're supposed to be.

Quote from: Danihel Txechescu on March 23, 2022, 12:26:03 AMI think a less blocky font would fit better here, and seems to be more often used in documents of this kind.

I can work with that. I have a few in mind, though not all of them have italic character sets for the English captions, so I'll see what I can do.

QuotePlease see the Appendix A to part 5. It lists F / F for English/French, even though the same initials would be used in both M and F.

That is weird, but a good observation. I guess I'll leave it up to the decision of the room.

QuoteI've got to say: I'm absolutely delighted to see that we're discussing standards! Whatever the outcome, this is a whole new level of work!

You and me both! Of course, I'm an engineer, so this sort of thing is...all too familiar, haha.

I think these designs are looking amazing! One minor bit of feedback is that the different colored fonts on the obverse read like they should be grouped and read together, rather than following down the column. Took me a second to parse them. Maybe that's just because I'm looking at it on a screen, though?