This is, despite the title, not about our esteemed Secretary of State (that is a genuine compliment), but about Brenier. Please see the below.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on March 18, 2022, 02:19:46 PM
Hi folks,
This is not a debating chamber. This is the office of the sitting Florencian senator.
Please take continued debate into another thread.
He just deleted an entire string of comments that were critical of him personally, and I find that to be incredibly abusive, not least because it violates my Talossan rights against censorship by the government. A proper form of remedy would have been moving the comments, or locking the thread, or any number of other decisions, other than summarily deleting them.
More to the point, he just chilled my political speech while acting (1) as a Witt moderator and (2) a publicly elected official.
Besides bringing this to public attention, if the comments are not reinstated elsewhere, I will be filing for emergency relief in the Corts. There is an ongoing election, and I am entitled as a matter of Organic right to be heard – however unfavorable to Brenier my comments may be – whenever I may have something political to say against the leader of a major political party.
Unless I'm mistaken, it looks like he is actively moving them to a new thread right now?
Please show me where.
The below quote contains a link to my original comment, which leads nowhere, because it was deleted.
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 01:46:43 PM
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 12:53:49 PM
Actually, I have drafted a constitution that merges the two extant provincial constitutions (as well as a second extra draft, on the feedback from S:reu Tzaracomprada, that takes the initial draft and makes it into a directorate). These drafts lift parts of both the Benitian and Florencian constitutions, sometimes word-for-word, sometimes not. If you would like, I can send you links for either or both.
Yes, please.
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 02:39:18 PM
Please show me where.
The below quote contains a link to my original comment, which leads nowhere, because it was deleted.
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 01:46:43 PM
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 12:53:49 PM
Actually, I have drafted a constitution that merges the two extant provincial constitutions (as well as a second extra draft, on the feedback from S:reu Tzaracomprada, that takes the initial draft and makes it into a directorate). These drafts lift parts of both the Benitian and Florencian constitutions, sometimes word-for-word, sometimes not. If you would like, I can send you links for either or both.
Yes, please.
I am actually unclear on how to move them which is why they appear to be deleted. This is my first time using moderation. I will need the assistance of, I believe, the Chancery
@Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM I DO NOT appreciate your immediate assumption that I was abusing my authority. But I am not surprised by your behavior.
I know the Secretary of State has done it as recently as yesterday.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on March 18, 2022, 02:45:13 PM
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 02:39:18 PM
Please show me where.
The below quote contains a link to my original comment, which leads nowhere, because it was deleted.
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 01:46:43 PM
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 12:53:49 PM
Actually, I have drafted a constitution that merges the two extant provincial constitutions (as well as a second extra draft, on the feedback from S:reu Tzaracomprada, that takes the initial draft and makes it into a directorate). These drafts lift parts of both the Benitian and Florencian constitutions, sometimes word-for-word, sometimes not. If you would like, I can send you links for either or both.
Yes, please.
I am actually unclear on how to move them which is why they appear to be deleted. This is my first time using moderation. I will need the assistance of, I believe, the Chancery @Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM
I DO NOT appreciate your immediate assumption that I was abusing my authority. But I am not surprised by your behavior.
Were the posts DELETED or were they MOVED? It matters a great deal, in fact. Until this particular incident, I was not aware of a feature in SMF that allows me to restore deleted threads. Unfortunately, that option was turned off by the person who set Witt up. If the posts were deleted, I don't think I have the ability to restore them. Any future deleted posts can be restored.
As a general rule, we do not delete the posts of others. We may lock them, move them, or report them to admin (me) for a decision. Any abuse by a moderator may result in loss of mod privileges.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on March 18, 2022, 02:47:42 PM
I know the Secretary of State has done it as recently as yesterday.
Done what? Deleted or moved? I have not deleted any posts. I have made a few moves here and there, but it is rare when I step in and use my admin powers.
Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on March 18, 2022, 02:48:50 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on March 18, 2022, 02:45:13 PM
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 02:39:18 PM
Please show me where.
The below quote contains a link to my original comment, which leads nowhere, because it was deleted.
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 01:46:43 PM
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 12:53:49 PM
Actually, I have drafted a constitution that merges the two extant provincial constitutions (as well as a second extra draft, on the feedback from S:reu Tzaracomprada, that takes the initial draft and makes it into a directorate). These drafts lift parts of both the Benitian and Florencian constitutions, sometimes word-for-word, sometimes not. If you would like, I can send you links for either or both.
Yes, please.
I am actually unclear on how to move them which is why they appear to be deleted. This is my first time using moderation. I will need the assistance of, I believe, the Chancery @Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM
I DO NOT appreciate your immediate assumption that I was abusing my authority. But I am not surprised by your behavior.
Were the posts DELETED or were they MOVED? It matters a great deal, in fact. Until this particular incident, I was not aware of a feature in SMF that allows me to restore deleted threads. Unfortunately, that option was turned off by the person who set Witt up. If the posts were deleted, I don't think I have the ability to restore them. Any future deleted posts can be restored.
As a general rule, we do not delete the posts of others. We may lock them, move them, or report them to admin (me) for a decision. Any abuse by a moderator may result in loss of mod privileges.
They were moved but when I go into my moderation area there are no posts to be settled.
Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on March 18, 2022, 02:49:38 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on March 18, 2022, 02:47:42 PM
I know the Secretary of State has done it as recently as yesterday.
Done what? Deleted or moved? I have not deleted any posts. I have made a few moves here and there, but it is rare when I step in and use my admin powers.
Moved...as in moving posts from the discussion within the Ukraine PD thread.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on March 18, 2022, 02:45:13 PM
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 02:39:18 PM
Please show me where.
The below quote contains a link to my original comment, which leads nowhere, because it was deleted.
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 01:46:43 PM
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 12:53:49 PM
Actually, I have drafted a constitution that merges the two extant provincial constitutions (as well as a second extra draft, on the feedback from S:reu Tzaracomprada, that takes the initial draft and makes it into a directorate). These drafts lift parts of both the Benitian and Florencian constitutions, sometimes word-for-word, sometimes not. If you would like, I can send you links for either or both.
Yes, please.
I am actually unclear on how to move them which is why they appear to be deleted. This is my first time using moderation. I will need the assistance of, I believe, the Chancery @Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM
I DO NOT appreciate your immediate assumption that I was abusing my authority. But I am not surprised by your behavior.
A good-faith actor would not have attempted to move comments before knowing how to do so. More to the point, a good-faith actor would have noticed that the posts were deleted immediately and spoken up, so as to avoid a presumption of bad faith. A person who
isn't trying to squelch critical speech wouldn't be offended, but would recognize that the appearance of bad faith was created. See the difference?
Good-faith actors behaving with clean hands and fair dealing would say, "I am so sorry, I didn't mean to abuse my powers, let me get to this immediately"; a bad-faith actor who is sorry that they got caught would say, "I don't know what I am doing", and then fail to apologize or admit that they committed an actually illegal act.
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 02:52:05 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on March 18, 2022, 02:45:13 PM
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 02:39:18 PM
Please show me where.
The below quote contains a link to my original comment, which leads nowhere, because it was deleted.
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 01:46:43 PM
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 12:53:49 PM
Actually, I have drafted a constitution that merges the two extant provincial constitutions (as well as a second extra draft, on the feedback from S:reu Tzaracomprada, that takes the initial draft and makes it into a directorate). These drafts lift parts of both the Benitian and Florencian constitutions, sometimes word-for-word, sometimes not. If you would like, I can send you links for either or both.
Yes, please.
I am actually unclear on how to move them which is why they appear to be deleted. This is my first time using moderation. I will need the assistance of, I believe, the Chancery @Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM
I DO NOT appreciate your immediate assumption that I was abusing my authority. But I am not surprised by your behavior.
A good-faith actor would not have attempted to move comments before knowing how to do so. More to the point, a good-faith actor would have noticed that the posts were deleted immediately and spoken up, so as to avoid a presumption of bad faith. A person who isn't trying to squelch critical speech wouldn't be offended, but would recognize that the appearance of bad faith was created. See the difference?
Good-faith actors behaving with clean hands and fair dealing would say, "I am so sorry, I didn't mean to abuse my powers, let me get to this immediately"; a bad-faith actor who is sorry that they got caught would say, "I don't know what I am doing", and then fail to apologize or admit that they committed an actually illegal act.
This is, looks at watch, a few hours of AdV's return. May Talossa endure.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on March 18, 2022, 02:51:14 PM
Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on March 18, 2022, 02:49:38 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on March 18, 2022, 02:47:42 PM
I know the Secretary of State has done it as recently as yesterday.
Done what? Deleted or moved? I have not deleted any posts. I have made a few moves here and there, but it is rare when I step in and use my admin powers.
Moved...as in moving posts from the discussion within the Ukraine PD thread.
Correct. Like I said, I rarely intervene as the administrator. I'd suggest if you're not sure how to move a post, let me know and I'll help. Let's not jump to conclusions about bad faith, etc, and I hope someone has quotes or whatever so the main points of the now missing threads are still usable in some form.
Future deleted threads will be more easy to restore, now that I've found that hidden setting.
Mr. Secretary
@Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM Are you telling me that if I can't see the moderated posts in my queue then they are gone?
Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on March 18, 2022, 02:55:42 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on March 18, 2022, 02:51:14 PM
Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on March 18, 2022, 02:49:38 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on March 18, 2022, 02:47:42 PM
I know the Secretary of State has done it as recently as yesterday.
Done what? Deleted or moved? I have not deleted any posts. I have made a few moves here and there, but it is rare when I step in and use my admin powers.
Moved...as in moving posts from the discussion within the Ukraine PD thread.
Correct. Like I said, I rarely intervene as the administrator. I'd suggest if you're not sure how to move a post, let me know and I'll help. Let's not jump to conclusions about bad faith, etc, and I hope someone has quotes or whatever so the main points of the now missing threads are still usable in some form.
Future deleted threads will be more easy to restore, now that I've found that hidden setting.
Noted. And I will consult with you before acting in the future. I wanted to move the discussion out of the Senator's Office into another thread in the Florencia sub-threads.
Because Brenier cannot stifle my speech in this subforum, I will be trying to piece back together what I wrote, particularly the parts that were critical of him, which one can only assume he didn't want anyone else to see.
And let us note very specifically that our Secretary of State, even when presented with tumultuous content, locks threads or moves them, rather than deletes them, which Brenier easily could have done.
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 01:46:43 PM
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 12:53:49 PM
Actually, I have drafted a constitution that merges the two extant provincial constitutions (as well as a second extra draft, on the feedback from S:reu Tzaracomprada, that takes the initial draft and makes it into a directorate). These drafts lift parts of both the Benitian and Florencian constitutions, sometimes word-for-word, sometimes not. If you would like, I can send you links for either or both.
Yes, please.
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 12:53:49 PM
[something lost to Brenier's deletion]
I'll take that on the chin, too. If the canton doesn't represent dominion over Florencia, then fair's fair. I'll reiterate that it's still a beautiful design, though.
Quote from: Açafat del Val[I cannot replicate this yet, because Mic'haglh Autófil snipped it.
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 12:53:49 PM
Another part, this time from Mic'haglh Autófil, that I cannot replicate yet, also because he snipped it.
It's hard for me to give a shit remain active when every instance of my passions and interests were unequivocally, unashamedly, and viscously overturned by the end of 2020. I made contributions to Florencia specifically and Talossa generally, and I think that to date most or all of them have been undone, not because they were substantively bad or even improper, but because many Talossans don't want to run a nation – they want to run their own one-man fiefs ;)
It's funny, by the way, that those folks who cry about the FreeDems' failure to govern are the same folks who squash literally any ideas that weren't theirs. (I'm talking about the TNC.)
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 12:53:49 PM
In the case of our provinces specifically: a shared history, and to a lesser extent proximity, are what make the pairing an obvious place to start, but the why is really more of a nationwide issue at this point.
And since you have argued in another thread for enlarging Florencia instead -- ok then, it's your turn to make a convincing argument.
Here's my argument: Get rid of all provinces, including Florencia. Until then, no mergers.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on March 18, 2022, 02:55:50 PM
Mr. Secretary @Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM Are you telling me that if I can't see the moderated posts in my queue then they are gone?
I believe that up until about ten minutes ago, there was no way to recover deleted posts. I've created a recycle bin that only an admin can see, so if posts get accidentally (or even intentionally) deleted in the future, they can be restored.
Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on March 18, 2022, 02:55:42 PM
Correct. Like I said, I rarely intervene as the administrator. I'd suggest if you're not sure how to move a post, let me know and I'll help. Let's not jump to conclusions about bad faith, etc, and I hope someone has quotes or whatever so the main points of the now missing threads are still usable in some form.
Future deleted threads will be more easy to restore, now that I've found that hidden setting.
Unless the comments are restored, I have suffered a harm that conveniently benefits Breneir's electioneering. That is a remediable action, which the Corts may heal through damages, injunctions, or otherwise.
Like it or not, Wittenberg is a government portal. It is inOrganic and in any case illegal that a publicly elected official has caused that my political speech was chilled. If it was done in bad faith, then it is an intentional act that deserves harsh penalties; and, even if it weren't done in bad faith, it was gross negligence (not merely negligence) that must be made whole. Brenier had a duty of care to preserve my comments, and he violated that duty. Moreover, whether it was intentional or negligent, the effect is that Brenier stifled critical statements so that the public is none the wiser.
In "the real world", it is not excusable to say "oopsie", especially when the actor benefits from the result!
These are neither idle nor threats. They are statements of fact. If the comments cannot be restored in the originality, however, then I will be seeking judicial relief immediately.
I await to hear whether these comments may be restored.
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 03:06:18 PM
Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on March 18, 2022, 02:55:42 PM
Correct. Like I said, I rarely intervene as the administrator. I'd suggest if you're not sure how to move a post, let me know and I'll help. Let's not jump to conclusions about bad faith, etc, and I hope someone has quotes or whatever so the main points of the now missing threads are still usable in some form.
Future deleted threads will be more easy to restore, now that I've found that hidden setting.
Unless the comments are restored, I have suffered a harm that conveniently benefits Breneir's electioneering. That is a remediable action, which the Corts may heal through damages, injunctions, or otherwise.
Like it or not, Wittenberg is a government portal. It is inOrganic and in any case illegal that a publicly elected official has caused that my political speech was chilled. If it was done in bad faith, then it is an intentional act that deserves harsh penalties; and, even if it weren't done in bad faith, it was gross negligence (not merely negligence) that must be made whole. Brenier had a duty of care to preserve my comments, and he violated that duty. Moreover, whether it was intentional or negligent, the effect is that Brenier stifled critical statements so that the public is none the wiser.
In "the real world", it is not excusable to say "oopsie", especially when the actor benefits from the result!
These are neither idle nor threats. They are statements of fact. If the comments cannot be restored in the originality, however, then I will be seeking judicial relief immediately.
I await to hear whether these comments may be restored.
Please proceed to seeking legal relief.
Actually, let's make a point of clarification, Dr. dal Nordselvă: how would these posts have been deleted, unless the moderator intended to delete them?
In any and all forums for which I have ever moderated, it is a common tool to select a child/destination forum. How is it possible that Brenier "moved" my posts, which happens to have the effect of deleting them?
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 03:08:44 PM
Actually, let's make a point of clarification, Dr. dal Nordselvă: how would these posts have been deleted, unless the moderator intended to delete them?
In any and all forums for which I have ever moderated, it is a common tool to select a child/destination forum. How is it possible that Brenier "moved" my posts, which happens to have the effect of deleting them?
Yes, Dr. dal Nordselva, please tell me how Breneir made a mistake. Enter into the mind of Breneir and tell me what he was thinking when he made a moderation error...
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 03:08:44 PM
Actually, let's make a point of clarification, Dr. dal Nordselvă: how would these posts have been deleted, unless the moderator intended to delete them?
In any and all forums for which I have ever moderated, it is a common tool to select a child/destination forum. How is it possible that Brenier "moved" my posts, which happens to have the effect of deleting them?
There exists a few options, at least on my screen. A moderator/admin can remove a post or move a post. If a post is deleted, I've not found a way (up until I discovered the "recycle bin" option, to restore them. I'll keep searching. A moved post gives the option of where to move it to, as well as the ability to create a new thread.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on March 18, 2022, 03:11:21 PM
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 03:08:44 PM
Actually, let's make a point of clarification, Dr. dal Nordselvă: how would these posts have been deleted, unless the moderator intended to delete them?
In any and all forums for which I have ever moderated, it is a common tool to select a child/destination forum. How is it possible that Brenier "moved" my posts, which happens to have the effect of deleting them?
Yes, Dr. dal Nordselva, please tell me how Breneir made a mistake. Enter into the mind of Breneir and tell me what he was thinking when he made a moderation error...
I often tell my students (and my wife coincidentally) that I failed mind-reading class in college. I cannot know what the Senator intended. I have, however, temporarily removed the ability for moderators to delete posts. That won't restore what is gone, but it will prevent issues in the future.
Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on March 18, 2022, 03:29:54 PM
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 03:08:44 PM
Actually, let's make a point of clarification, Dr. dal Nordselvă: how would these posts have been deleted, unless the moderator intended to delete them?
In any and all forums for which I have ever moderated, it is a common tool to select a child/destination forum. How is it possible that Brenier "moved" my posts, which happens to have the effect of deleting them?
There exists a few options, at least on my screen. A moderator/admin can remove a post or move a post. If a post is deleted, I've not found a way (up until I discovered the "recycle bin" option, to restore them. I'll keep searching. A moved post gives the option of where to move it to, as well as the ability to create a new thread.
To the extent that "a moved post gives the option of where to move it to", my next question is: Is there any ability to have "moved" a post without selecting a destination, or will the PHP database kickback the request? More to the point, is it mechanically possible that a moderator may delete a post by "accident", or are there clear signs of "remove", "delete", and similar language which make it clear that the moderator is about to perform an act of deletion, as opposed to an act of moving?
Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on March 18, 2022, 03:31:22 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on March 18, 2022, 03:11:21 PM
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 03:08:44 PM
Actually, let's make a point of clarification, Dr. dal Nordselvă: how would these posts have been deleted, unless the moderator intended to delete them?
In any and all forums for which I have ever moderated, it is a common tool to select a child/destination forum. How is it possible that Brenier "moved" my posts, which happens to have the effect of deleting them?
Yes, Dr. dal Nordselva, please tell me how Breneir made a mistake. Enter into the mind of Breneir and tell me what he was thinking when he made a moderation error...
I often tell my students (and my wife coincidentally) that I failed mind-reading class in college. I cannot know what the Senator intended. I have, however, temporarily removed the ability for moderators to delete posts. That won't restore what is gone, but it will prevent issues in the future.
I appreciate that, Mr. Secretary. I do not want this to happen any more than you or the ex-Senator of Florencia. My husband knows I failed that class as well. As well as discussion board moderation apparently...
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 03:33:58 PM
Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on March 18, 2022, 03:29:54 PM
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 03:08:44 PM
Actually, let's make a point of clarification, Dr. dal Nordselvă: how would these posts have been deleted, unless the moderator intended to delete them?
In any and all forums for which I have ever moderated, it is a common tool to select a child/destination forum. How is it possible that Brenier "moved" my posts, which happens to have the effect of deleting them?
There exists a few options, at least on my screen. A moderator/admin can remove a post or move a post. If a post is deleted, I've not found a way (up until I discovered the "recycle bin" option, to restore them. I'll keep searching. A moved post gives the option of where to move it to, as well as the ability to create a new thread.
To the extent that "a moved post gives the option of where to move it to", my next question is: Is there any ability to have "moved" a post without selecting a destination, or will the PHP database kickback the request? More to the point, is it mechanically possible that a moderator may delete a post by "accident", or are there clear signs of "remove", "delete", and similar language which make it clear that the moderator is about to perform an act of deletion, as opposed to an act of moving?
Without giving offense, as the Chancery is named, even if only tangentially, in the suit now sitting before the Uppermost Cort, I politely decline to answer further questions as to the workings of Wittenberg without advice from an attorney or unless questioned by the Cort to do so.
Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on March 18, 2022, 03:45:53 PM
Without giving offense, as the Chancery is named, even if only tangentially, in the suit now sitting before the Uppermost Cort, I politely decline to answer further questions as to the workings of Wittenberg without advice from an attorney or unless questioned by the Cort to do so.
Will the Secretary of State confirm at the least – certainly, I would say, without being able to impart upon himself, the office, or the Chancery as a whole any quantity of liability – that my posts (1) were deleted, (2) cannot be recovered, and (3) will have to be remade by me from scratch if I wish that they 'see the day of light'?
Edited for typos.
It is incredibly fair to expect an answer, at least to part of the question, because if my posts can be recovered, it affects the lawsuit materially. In fact, if they can be recovered, then the controversy is nearly or actually entirely moot. On the other hand, if they cannot be recovered, that forces the suit to proceed.
Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 04:05:26 PM
It is incredibly fair to expect an answer, at least to part of the question, because if my posts can be recovered, it affects the lawsuit materially. In fact, if they can be recovered, then the controversy is nearly or actually entirely moot. On the other hand, if they cannot be recovered, that forces the suit to proceed.
I cannot find any way to recover deleted threads and/or posts.