I was thinking about the heraldric tradition of badges recently.
Quote from: Arthur Fox-Davies' A Complete Guide to HeraldryThere was never any fixed form for the badge; there was never any fixed manner of usage. I can find no fixed laws of inheritance, no common method of assumption. In fact the use of a badge, in the days when everybody who was anybody possessed arms, was quite subsidiary to the arms, and very much akin to the manner in which nowadays monograms are made use of. ... [The badge] was worn by the servants and retainers, and was used right and left on the belongings of the owner as a sign of his ownership. So great and extensive at one period was the use of these badges, that they were far more generally employed than either arms or crest
Fox-Davies illustrates his discussion of the badge by providing the badges of the Earl of Stafford, who had eighteen badges in his house in some capacity (unknown precisely, although perhaps for eighteen members of his extended family?), Edward the Black Prince, who used his badge of an ostrich feather piercing parchment on more occasions than his formal arms, and the rival houses of the
War of the Roses which were both members of the Plantagenets (
Gules, three lions passant guardant Or) but were identified by their badges (among other examples).
The whole thing has me thinking about how badges should be used in Talossa. I believe that we should treat them the same way they were treated in England: unregulated, ungranted, and borne by individuals rather than by families. So while my daughters would bear my family arms, they could each adopt their own badges.
Thoughts from the College?
-NRH
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 24, 2022, 07:25:55 PM
I was thinking about the heraldric tradition of badges recently.
Quote from: Arthur Fox-Davies' A Complete Guide to HeraldryThere was never any fixed form for the badge; there was never any fixed manner of usage. I can find no fixed laws of inheritance, no common method of assumption. In fact the use of a badge, in the days when everybody who was anybody possessed arms, was quite subsidiary to the arms, and very much akin to the manner in which nowadays monograms are made use of. ... [The badge] was worn by the servants and retainers, and was used right and left on the belongings of the owner as a sign of his ownership. So great and extensive at one period was the use of these badges, that they were far more generally employed than either arms or crest
Fox-Davies illustrates his discussion of the badge by providing the badges of the Earl of Stafford, who had eighteen badges in his house in some capacity (unknown precisely, although perhaps for eighteen members of his extended family?), Edward the Black Prince, who used his badge of an ostrich feather piercing parchment on more occasions than his formal arms, and the rival houses of the War of the Roses which were both members of the Plantagenets (Gules, three lions passant guardant Or) but were identified by their badges (among other examples).
The whole thing has me thinking about how badges should be used in Talossa. I believe that we should treat them the same way they were treated in England: unregulated, ungranted, and borne by individuals rather than by families. So while my daughters would bear my family arms, they could each adopt their own badges.
Thoughts from the College?
-NRH
It's an interesting idea. I'm curious to perhaps see some examples.
- REH
Edward IV ("rose-en-soliel")
(https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41617/41617-h/images/fig678.png)
Richard I
(https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41617/41617-h/images/fig680.png)
Duke of Suffolk
(https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41617/41617-h/images/fig682.png)
And I threw together a quick one for myself by way of illustration. A corvid feather from my crest, on top of my armorial colors.
(https://i.imgur.com/usJYRWH.png)
More from Fox-Davies here (https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41617/41617-h/41617-h.htm#page453), and the relevant SCA page here (https://heraldry.sca.org/armory/whatis/badge.html).
-NRH
Please pardon me if I interrupt...
I have created (and used) this medallion directly from my arms:
(https://i.imgur.com/HxelwBg.png)
Here it is on a case:
(https://i.imgur.com/46DYBG1.png)
And I even got myself an embosser! Here's a sample on a soft tissue (hehe):
(https://i.imgur.com/4VYLNh8.png)
I really like the idea of doing this!
-REH
Quote from: Danihel Txechescu on March 24, 2022, 10:18:28 PM
Please pardon me if I interrupt...
I have created (and used) this medallion directly from my arms:
(https://i.imgur.com/HxelwBg.png)
Here it is on a case:
(https://i.imgur.com/46DYBG1.png)
And I even got myself an embosser! Here's a sample on a soft tissue (hehe):
(https://i.imgur.com/4VYLNh8.png)
That looks sharp!
Quote from: Danihel Txechescu on March 24, 2022, 10:18:28 PM
Please pardon me if I interrupt...
I have created (and used) this medallion directly from my arms:
(https://i.imgur.com/HxelwBg.png)
Here it is on a case:
(https://i.imgur.com/46DYBG1.png)
And I even got myself an embosser! Here's a sample on a soft tissue (hehe):
(https://i.imgur.com/4VYLNh8.png)
This is really cool! It's your arms on a circular escutcheon. Where did you get the embosser? Looks like it works really well.
-NRH
I'm all for this. Sort of ties in with what I was thinking recently about Japanese mon vs hanko -- mon are roughly equivalent to arms, whereas hanko are more like individual signatures than anything inheritable. Hanko seals/stamps are actually frequently used in Japanese business documents where we would use a signature in the west -- some classes of hanko are registered and considered more formal than others, for use in business, whereas others are more for personal communications (analogous to how I sign "Mike" instead of my full name when sending cards for, say, Mother's Day).
-LF (?)
It seems that in the UK, for example, badges are granted by their College of Arms, normally when granting new arms, and included in their Letters Patent. I would think that if we're to begin using these ourselves, it should be regulated by the RTCoA and based on either new grants of arms or if requested, upon previously granted arms.
Here is an example of my own Arms in badge form.
(http://wiki.talossa.com/images/8/8c/Heraldic_badge.png)
-REH
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 25, 2022, 02:53:51 AM
-LF (?)
This works or you could go with TLF (The Long Fellow).
Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on March 25, 2022, 02:58:17 PM
It seems that in the UK, for example, badges are granted by their College of Arms, normally when granting new arms, and included in their Letters Patent. I would think that if we're to begin using these ourselves, it should be regulated by the RTCoA and based on either new grants of arms or if requested, upon previously granted arms.
Here is an example of my own Arms in badge form.
(http://wiki.talossa.com/images/8/8c/Heraldic_badge.png)
-REH
I believe that is your arms, just on a round escutcheon, right? For a badge, you could adopt a scroll or basically any other device you wanted on a background of white and red divided probably in the same way as your arms, but maybe completely differently.
It does look like a UK started regulating badges and treating them as something you can request when you request arms, but I was charmed at the idea that there could be a device that people could adopt whenever they wanted or even change, and that would be appropriate to have on livery or members of the household. That's why I brought it up... if we treated them differently then arms, then It might be a fun new thing for people to mess with. If there's one thing I've learned from observing heraldry for so many years with an avid interest, it's that people really like discussing symbolism about themselves and their interests, so giving people more chances to mess around with that seems like it would be a good thing. And if it was free from the usual constraints of the college and the king, it would give people a chance to experiment with different ideas. My daughters made me think of this... I love chess and love the trappings of nonsense feudalism and clever tactics, and so I was thinking of that when designing my arms all those years ago. And that's great for my house in perpetuity! But I want them to have the chance to express themselves in a similar way, and badges will be a means for that.
I'm not married to the idea either way, but it's just something I was thinking about and thought I would throw out there to start a discussion.
-NRH
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 25, 2022, 03:38:40 PM
Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on March 25, 2022, 02:58:17 PM
It seems that in the UK, for example, badges are granted by their College of Arms, normally when granting new arms, and included in their Letters Patent. I would think that if we're to begin using these ourselves, it should be regulated by the RTCoA and based on either new grants of arms or if requested, upon previously granted arms.
Here is an example of my own Arms in badge form.
(http://wiki.talossa.com/images/8/8c/Heraldic_badge.png)
-REH
I believe that is your arms, just on a round escutcheon, right? For a badge, you could adopt a scroll or basically any other device you wanted on a background of white and red divided probably in the same way as your arms, but maybe completely differently.
It does look like a UK started regulating badges and treating them as something you can request when you request arms, but I was charmed at the idea that there could be a device that people could adopt whenever they wanted or even change, and that would be appropriate to have on livery or members of the household. That's why I brought it up... if we treated them differently then arms, then It might be a fun new thing for people to mess with. If there's one thing I've learned from observing heraldry for so many years with an avid interest, it's that people really like discussing symbolism about themselves and their interests, so giving people more chances to mess around with that seems like it would be a good thing. And if it was free from the usual constraints of the college and the king, it would give people a chance to experiment with different ideas. My daughters made me think of this... I love chess and love the trappings of nonsense feudalism and clever tactics, and so I was thinking of that when designing my arms all those years ago. And that's great for my house in perpetuity! But I want them to have the chance to express themselves in a similar way, and badges will be a means for that.
I'm not married to the idea either way, but it's just something I was thinking about and thought I would throw out there to start a discussion.
-NRH
I like the idea of letting people create their own badges. My idea was to establish a simple registration process to avoid badges being too similar to each other.
Let's do it!
Yes, this is my CoA on a round escutcheon. I will probably mess around with ideas more, but just thought I'd make a quick design based on my arms.
-REH
Oh, I see. So we would just provide a registry for people for their badges? That makes sense.
I'm about halfway through trying to straighten up the rules of heraldry. How about I just add some language about this too? Then you guys can edit it or make suggestions before we send it to the SKA?
-NRH
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 25, 2022, 04:47:27 PM
Oh, I see. So we would just provide a registry for people for their badges? That makes sense.
I'm about halfway through trying to straighten up the rules of heraldry. How about I just add some language about this too? Then you guys can edit it or make suggestions before we send it to the SKA?
-NRH
Sounds good to me!
-REH
Any enterprising Collegiates who want to take on setting up a Registry of Badges on the wiki in a way that makes sense?
-NRH
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 03, 2022, 06:42:21 PM
Any enterprising Collegiates who want to take on setting up a Registry of Badges on the wiki in a way that makes sense?
Perhaps this could be a task for The Long Fellow or, when he is granted citizenship, the newest applicant to be the OAF.
-REH
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 03, 2022, 06:42:21 PM
Any enterprising Collegiates who want to take on setting up a Registry of Badges on the wiki in a way that makes sense?
-NRH
I could take a crack at it here this week.
Quote from: Rt Hon. Mic'haglh Autófil on April 03, 2022, 07:02:44 PM
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 03, 2022, 06:42:21 PM
Any enterprising Collegiates who want to take on setting up a Registry of Badges on the wiki in a way that makes sense?
-NRH
I could take a crack at it here this week.
That would be great! No rush, just whenever you get a chance. And please include my badge in the registry.
Please also add my badge to the registry.
Thanks!
I have created the registry and added the badges of not sure how to pluralize this S:reux Davinescu, Txechescu, and dal Nordselva as the first entries.
http://wiki.talossa.com/Registry_of_Badges
Quote from: Rt Hon. Mic'haglh Autófil on April 06, 2022, 01:35:39 PM
I have created the registry and added the badges of not sure how to pluralize this S:reux Davinescu, Txechescu, and dal Nordselva as the first entries.
http://wiki.talossa.com/Registry_of_Badges
Nice job!
If "badges and banners may be adopted by armigers at will," does that mean only armigerous Talossans may register badges?
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil, MoFA on May 05, 2022, 02:34:09 PM
If "badges and banners may be adopted by armigers at will," does that mean only armigerous Talossans may register badges?
That is a good question and one we should clarify. My personal thoughts are that any Talossan can be considered an armiger if they have made a request for Arms. The question then should be, can a citizen create and register a badger when they either have no granted arms, or have not officially begun the process of a grant of arms? What do my fellow heralds the
@Noir Eagle Herald and the
@Noir Raven Herald think?
-REH
In my opinion, I believe only armigers -- those bearing arms -- should be permitted to register badges in this specific way. They were originally intended to serve as a way to label items and members of a household, since only the armiger themselves would directly bear their actual armorial achievement. The crest from the achievement was often used as a badge in part or whole, which gave rise to the common synecdoche of a "family crest."
However, it's worth noting that the badge phenomenon evolved from a mark of livery to something more akin to the modern-day logo, and often no one bothered to register them anywhere (indeed, often they weren't registered at all. So if someone wants to bear a badge they haven't registered, neither law nor custom should make them feel like they aren't allowed.
This is all my own opinion, of course.
-NRH