The Free Democrats of Talossa and el Parti da Reformaziun denounce in the strongest possible terms recent attempts by the leader of the Talossan National Congress to poach members from either of these parties. We attach as evidence a personal message sent by TNC leader Brenéir Tzaracomprada to former PdR MC Caleb Frenibuerg, calling on him to "change the government" by defecting in the upcoming Seneschal election..
We note that Senator Tzaracomprada, prior to the election, also attempted to entice at least one Free Democrat candidate to defect. Doing so before the election might well be considered fair play. But doing so after seats have already been assigned, in an effort to override the results of the election, is an affront to the voters, who chose the party list they supported most based in part on the members contained thereupon. The Cosa is the foundation of Talossan democracy. MCs bolting for other parties before the Cosa has even opened its session would amount to deception of the voters – is this the kind of behavior the TNC wishes to endorse and even encourage?
In addition, vague attempts to lure MCs away with implicit promises of reward are at best borderline unethical. Either negotiate a government in explicit terms or do not. Vagaries offer little to the person whose loyalties you are attempting to steal, but place the risk entirely on them.
This sort of politics has been rare in Talossa for many years – surely we should want to avoid a return to the hyperpartisan atmosphere of the KR1 era.
Signed,
Mic'haglh Autófil
Leader, Parti da Reformaziun
@Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMMLeader, Free Democrats of Talossa
This joint statement only indicates you are threatened by my actions.
I will reach out to anyone (at any time after their immigrating to the Kingdom) that I want to solicit their support for the TNC and its policies.
It will be for that person to consider and respond.
Your attempt at bullying will be treated as such and ignored.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 22, 2022, 10:51:50 AM
[...]
Senator, keep in mind that S:reu Frenibuerg ran for an explicitly Republican party, and was elected into the Cosă in that capacity. Personally, I don't really get why you expected an MC for an explicitly Republican party to switch sides and support an explicitly anti-Republican government (and if you didnt expect that, why ask in the first place?), but can't you see how it would've infuriated PdR voters to see one of their MCs break rank so drastically and suddenly oppose everything they were elected to support? So yes, obviously they're threatened, such a turn of events would've damaged the PdR's and S:reu Frenibuerg's credibility, perhaps irreparably.
Just like dismissing all of this context and its possible consequences as mere "bullying".
What about open solicitation/ advertisement in the voting thread by an otherwise responsible person whilst conducting the election?
After an election during which the Free Democrats repeatedly and vigorously announced that their candidate for Seneschal would be Dama Miestra, only to suddenly decide on a different candidate a few days after the results were in, it doesn't seem like you guys can really claim umbrage here. Caleb is an adult and a Member of Cosa, not a child who must be protected from the reality of his situation.
I mean, honestly... You're pretending to be shocked that a candidate for Seneschal is campaigning for the office by reaching out to people who might be open to changing their mind? The only way that could really be shocking is if you were worried that it might work! And that speaks more to your own house than ours.
i am really shocked by such a lack of democratic standards by senator tzaracomprada. i would go further, what happened is not borderline unethical behaviour, it is far beyond that border.
professionally, i deal with ethical behaviour in scientific conduct, and i am a bit sensitive to such issues. i have already noticed the aggressive political behaviour of TNC representatives in other disco threads and this one seems to fit the same pattern.
yes, oh, man, it is a threatening behaviour. it threatens the democracy of talossa, republican or monarchist. it threatens the political atmosphere and environment, turning it toxic. and it clearly smells of spilt bile, the bile of those who want the power, but were not delegated by the people to hold it.
raton non amusado :-\
This is really interesting, and I want to be absolutely clear: are we suggesting that it is an ethical rule that it is out of bounds to reach out to MCs of an opposing party to try to convince them to support a different candidate or coalition? I would really really like to hear an answer from this from the leader of the Free Democrats specifically.
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 22, 2022, 11:58:42 AM
I mean, honestly... You're pretending to be shocked that a candidate for Seneschal is campaigning for the office by reaching out to people who might be open to changing their mind?
Well, maybe this is commonplace in America, but in Germany at least, and I'm sure other parliamentary democracies around the world, such a behaviour would indeed be shocking. The Kemmerich government in Thuringia 2019 fell due to way less than this.
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 22, 2022, 12:07:45 PM
This is really interesting, and I want to be absolutely clear: are we suggesting that it is an ethical rule that it is out of bounds to reach out to MCs of an opposing party to try to convince them to support a different candidate or coalition? I would really really like to hear an answer from this from the leader of the Free Democrats specifically.
What would you like to hear from me? Our public statement lays out our position.
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 22, 2022, 12:07:45 PM
This is really interesting, and I want to be absolutely clear: are we suggesting that it is an ethical rule that it is out of bounds to reach out to MCs of an opposing party to try to convince them to support a different candidate or coalition? I would really really like to hear an answer from this from the leader of the Free Democrats specifically.
whataboutism (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism#:~:text=Whataboutism%20or%20whataboutery%20(as%20in,refuting%20or%20disproving%20the%20argument.)
This reminds me a bit of things contributing to the collapse of the first Peculiarist govt. in the Republic of Talossa. After losing the election, the PSD (I think it was still called that at the time) lured away several members of the seated MRP and then dumped the Seneschal in a VoC.
The thing is, party discipline is, essentially, what makes the Westminster (and other similarly structured) parliamentary systems work. So solicitation of seated MP's in Germany or the UK would be a huge scandal. Compare that with the individualistic, "big tent" first past the post systems of the Americans, and it would be far less scandalous. For those who watch the US Senate, it's no secret that the GOP has suggested the Joe Manchin (D-WV) switch allegiance and hand the chamber back to them.
So to come to the ethical question of such solicitation, I'm not sure it is a major ethical breech. Or, at the very least, your views toward that are going to be informed at least somewhat by your macronational political/national affiliations.
partly deleted due to cluelessness on my part
Utterly inappropriate to attempt to enmesh a new citizen in such screwery and hi-jinks.
It's also good that I can revive this political cartoon from way back in the day. Third-biggest party asks the biggest party to pretty plz not solicit its members to turn its back on what they were elected for? BULLYING!!!
Voters vote for a party, not for individuals. It is thus clear that the TNC was encouraging an MC to betray their own voters, which seems pretty bad.
I speak for myself, and no one else:
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 22, 2022, 10:51:50 AM
This joint statement only indicates you are threatened by my actions. I will reach out to anyone (at any time after their immigrating to the Kingdom) that I want to solicit their support for the TNC and its policies. It will be for that person to consider and respond. Your attempt at bullying will be treated as such and ignored.
Bullying requires some manner of coercion, right? At a minimum, duress. I wonder what causes more duress or coercion?: trying secretly in the shadows to get a new citizen to secure your election as Seneschal, or issuing a public statement laying out priorities and upholding longstanding norms.
For what it's worth, I don't think I've ever heard a leader winge about being bullied. Did Nixon complain about bullying when he got caught in Watergate? I can't remember. Wait, I take that back. Trump complained about being treated unfairly. You're more a Trump guy, huh? Big bad dumb guy trying to roleplay as a leader, who really just wants to circlejerk with his buddies about feeling powerful? Man, even Nixon had more gumption!
You wanted to
lead Talossa, right? Put on your big-boy pants, be more creative, and find a better comeback than "bullying", please.
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 22, 2022, 12:07:45 PM
This is really interesting, and I want to be absolutely clear: are we suggesting that it is an ethical rule that it is out of bounds to reach out to MCs of an opposing party to try to convince them to support a different candidate or coalition? I would really really like to hear an answer from this from the leader of the Free Democrats specifically.
Sometimes, in brief moments of self-hatred, I wonder what it'd be like if I were your therapist. Like, purely from a psychological and sociological perspective, I am really honestly truly fascinated by you.
Somehow you are smart enough to write words, put together sentences, and manage Wiki articles (when you're not deleting other people's work, that is), but somehow
not smart enough to fathom how it could be a taboo (or unethical, in any case) to conspire against a brand-new citizen in order undermine an election.
To be more clear, I think that you know the difference, but you like to play dumb. I have observed this weird pattern where, once confronted with a question, the answer to which may lose you rhetorical victory, you just... don't answer. As if the question was never asked! Or, you like to answer a question which wasn't asked, but which would give you more room to claim victory.
I was not the person whom you solicited for an answer, but I want to answer anyways – ironically, by asking
you a question! (My money is that you're too chickenshit to respond, but I'll be humored if you find the gumption.)
If the TNC were
not trying to do something unethical, underhanded, or otherwise unbecoming, then why was the communication sent privately? Surely a party and its leadership who
want to be transparent, ethical, and forthcoming would make an announcement at large and trying to persuade MCs on the merits alone, without resorting to private secret communiques?
I think what saddens me the most about the TNC is that they think everyone else is as stupid as they are, as if no one else had the intelligence to see what they were doing and why it could be problematic for Talossa, her norms, her traditions, etc.
Hey, Davinescu, have you ever heard of game theory? It's this idea that says, wherever a person's dominant strategies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_dominance) require defection from the preferred outcome, they are going to defect every single time.
So, either the TNC leadership are donkey butts who don't think that transparency and respect are a preferred outcome, which would be really dangerous for Talossa!, or they are fraudulent tricksters who don't care and are just sad that they got caught.
I'm betting on the latter, because it was the TNC itself who argued for a Grand Coalition and made calls for a reconciliation of differences across the parties... which makes them hypocrites on top of being fraudulent tricksters.
Nixon had better charm than this. Talossa deserves so much better than the TNC.
Ad hominems aside, what it sounds like is there are no regulations surrounding this sort of behavior. I'm still learning the Talossan Political process but is there not a way to draft a rule or rules and put them up for a vote?
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on April 23, 2022, 09:32:19 AM
Ad hominems aside, what it sounds like is there are no regulations surrounding this sort of behavior. I'm still learning the Talossan Political process but is there not a way to draft a rule or rules and put them up for a vote?
sadly, legislation often does not forsee and does not take in account each an every dirty trick played by politicians to get what they want. last 8 yrs in czechia are quite a good example how our idealistic constitution was often used as a toilet paper by the new generation of populistic politicians. this new political "culture" on both sides of the ocean, and as i see, also here, in talossa, unfortunately cannot be solved by rules, cos those can be twisted and surpassed, but only by keeping ethical integrity. otherwise there will be rules to correct rules to correct rules and we'll be in a formalistic legal hell.
can someone remind me why and how the republic of talossa turned into being? [hint, it is a rhetoric question] i do not want it to happen again, although i would gladly leave players like the esteemed senator t. in their sandbox and move somewhere else, where the air is a bit fresher.
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on April 23, 2022, 09:32:19 AM
Ad hominems aside, what it sounds like is there are no regulations surrounding this sort of behavior. I'm still learning the Talossan Political process but is there not a way to draft a rule or rules and put them up for a vote?
I'm not sure there's a good way to do that without going against your right to organize political parties and organizations under the Third Covenant.
It's something that isn't generally well-received in parliamentary systems, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can illegalize it without opening up a different can of worms. Individual MCs may affiliate how they please, though as S:reu Tafial noted, it would be a
massive blow to your credibility to agree to something like this.
Quote from: Ián S.G. Txaglh on April 23, 2022, 03:04:26 PM
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on April 23, 2022, 09:32:19 AM
Ad hominems aside, what it sounds like is there are no regulations surrounding this sort of behavior. I'm still learning the Talossan Political process but is there not a way to draft a rule or rules and put them up for a vote?
sadly, legislation often does not forsee and does not take in account each an every dirty trick played by politicians to get what they want. last 8 yrs in czechia are quite a good example how our idealistic constitution was often used as a toilet paper by the new generation of populistic politicians. this new political "culture" on both sides of the ocean, and as i see, also here, in talossa, unfortunately cannot be solved by rules, cos those can be twisted and surpassed, but only by keeping ethical integrity. otherwise there will be rules to correct rules to correct rules and we'll be in a formalistic legal hell.
I completely agree, but only one of those 2 things can be controlled. You can't control a persons ethics but you can at least enforce a minimum ethical standard. (I also find it interesting that apparently how severe this offense is viewed is at least mildly correlated to your macro-national political culture.)
I'm pretty sure that there's no way to make "being a jerk" or "acting in bad faith" or "accusing people of being bullies for calling you out for being a jerk" illegal, nor should it be in a free society. I don't want to live in a society where everything that's legal is considered socially acceptable, though.
However, such behaviour should attract a political cost. If parties do things like this and it's universally condemned, and perhaps even their own voters tell their leaders they went too far trying to get political advantage, then maybe it won't happen again.
Which is why this shouldn't be a pile-on of FreeDems/PdR supporters. It would be great to see at least one person who voted TNC saying that this isn't acceptable behaviour from the person they voted for as Seneschal.
Having known Senator Tzaracomprada for 15 years - and been, I hope, a friend of his for that time - I can only say that, *as to ethical intentions only* (no legal comment here), I cannot believe there was any malice in this. If we want to avoid the sort of atmosphere "of the KR1 era", or of the period that drove me from the Kingdom for a few years, then I'd counsel some degree of caution in ascribing malice, corruption, etc. I think this is very unwise.
Quote from: owenedwards on April 23, 2022, 04:57:36 PM
Having known Senator Tzaracomprada for 15 years - and been, I hope, a friend of his for that time - I can only say that, *as to ethical intentions only* (no legal comment here), I cannot believe there was any malice in this. If we want to avoid the sort of atmosphere "of the KR1 era", or of the period that drove me from the Kingdom for a few years, then I'd counsel some degree of caution in ascribing malice, corruption, etc. I think this is very unwise.
Thank you friend for your support and for this wise counsel.
Quote from: Ián S.G. Txaglh on April 23, 2022, 03:04:26 PM
sadly, legislation often does not forsee and does not take in account each an every dirty trick played by politicians to get what they want. last 8 yrs in czechia are quite a good example how our idealistic constitution was often used as a toilet paper by the new generation of populistic politicians.
You do get to have pirates in government though, so maybe its not all bad :P
Or calling someone stupid, or going after their mental health therapy...
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 23, 2022, 04:46:14 PM
I'm pretty sure that there's no way to make "being a jerk" or "acting in bad faith" or "accusing people of being bullies for calling you out for being a jerk" illegal, nor should it be in a free society. I don't want to live in a society where everything that's legal is considered socially acceptable, though.
However, such behaviour should attract a political cost. If parties do things like this and it's universally condemned, and perhaps even their own voters tell their leaders they went too far trying to get political advantage, then maybe it won't happen again.
Which is why this shouldn't be a pile-on of FreeDems/PdR supporters. It would be great to see at least one person who voted TNC saying that this isn't acceptable behaviour from the person they voted for as Seneschal.
My goodness! Quite an excited pile-up in my absence! Not sure where to start! Maybe it's better to just note that the better graces of
@owenedwards ,
@Antonio Montagnha, Ed. D. ,
@Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu , and others are probably right to note that the insults seem... "disproportionate," maybe?
I don't think that it's wrong to try to convince a Member of Cosa to defect from a coalition or government, and it happens in other countries from time to time -- a couple of weeks ago, in fact, the coalition whip of the Israeli governing majority, Idit Silman, defected to Likud and thereby ended the coalition's majority in the Knesset, and a few years ago in the UK the Tories lost their majority when Philip Lee defected to the Liberal Democrats. Now, I'm not such a scholar of political science as many here, so maybe there's some differences I'm missing, but this process doesn't seem all that
unusual, much less shocking. In South Africa, it was actually regulated officially for a decade -- you were allowed two defections a year, no more!
Some countries have laws against this practice, like India, but it's commonplace in America. In 2001, Jim Jeffords of Vermont actually shifted control of that chamber when he joined the Democrats.
If we'd like to establish a
new norm in Talossa that we don't want to allow this practice, then that's fine with me. Let's be specific, and see if we can put it into law. But maybe lower the invective a little bit, either way?
Reposting because people seem to be missing the main point.
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on April 22, 2022, 09:05:16 PM
Voters vote for a party, not for individuals. It is thus clear that the TNC was encouraging an MC to betray their own voters, which seems pretty bad.
deleted because of cluelessness on my part
The OrgLaw doesnt allow parties to just reassign seats though. Parties assign seats, but "MCs may not be removed from office except by a two-thirds vote by the Cosa and approval by the King. An MC vacates his seats if he fails to vote on two consecutive Clarks, or if he resigns from office or dies."
Nowhere in the OrgLaw is it mentioned that parties can remove their MCs.
Note: not supposed to be a comment on the ethical (or personal) matters being discussed here. Kinda want to stay out that.
I'm informed by my colleagues that Glüc is right and I was wrong about the constitutional situation. :-[