WHEREAS there is a large legal loophole that would permit virtually any crime, including very serious crimes such as threats of sexual assault, theft, bribery, or anything else, and
WHEREAS the problem lies with the fact that we're offering unlimited and unqualified sanctuary under terms which clearly reference the medieval Christian practice of offering church protection from secular law, thereby allowing anyone to claim the right of sanctuary if accused of crimes, and
WHEREAS it's hard to find any other way to interpret this bit of the law so that it makes sense, and so therefore this reading probably is going to be a valid one, or at the very least would be an incredible complication that might make it impossible to prosecute someone, and
WHEREAS no one has yet taken advantage of it, but there's no reason to think that will last forever,THEREFORE the tenth section of Title A of el Lexhatx, which currently reads
Quote10. The Ziu hereby recognizes the historic right of churches and other religious organizations to offer sanctuary to individuals in dire need.
is hereby stricken in its entirety.
FURTHERMORE, the words "Except as provided in A.17," shall be struck from section 16.
FURTHERMORE, the Scribe is directed to renumber Title A in a sensible fashion.
Uréu q'estadra så:
Baron Alexandreu Davinescu
Quote from: WikipediaChurch sanctuaries were regulated by common law. An asylum seeker had to confess his sins, surrender his weapons, and permit supervision by a church or abbey organization with jurisdiction. Seekers then had forty days to decide whether to surrender to secular authorities and stand trial for their alleged crimes, or to confess their guilt, abjure the realm, and go into exile by the shortest route and never return without the king's permission. Those who did return faced execution under the law or excommunication from the Church.
Given those traditions, it seems harmless; but IMHO it has to be seen in the wider question of what status is granted to
any religious organizations under Talossan law.
The FreeDems will be happy to work with you on this just as soon as the TNC fulfills its campaign promise to their voters.
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on May 31, 2022, 09:23:48 PM
The FreeDems will be happy to work with you on this just as soon as the TNC fulfills its campaign promise to their voters the TNC submits to our threats and helps us achieve what voters did not give us a mandate to achieve at the ballot box!
Fixed it for you.
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on May 31, 2022, 09:23:48 PM
The FreeDems will be happy to work with you on this just as soon as the TNC fulfills its campaign promise to their voters.
The Government has declared that they will vote down all TNC bills, no matter their merits, until we comply with their demands. We categorically reject all attempts to threaten us into obedience. After all, if we meekly submit today, you'll be back tomorrow with another demand.
I'm going to proceed normally with proposing laws that fix serious problems in our system and which actually help Talossans. I'm working on a draft of a bill to fix some problems that V and I noticed when I got started as Clerk, and I'm working on a transparency bill to help people keep track of what personal information the Government has, fixing a problem with our current transparency laws. I stand with my party. If you guys need to fulfil your threats, then do what you have to do. We'll let the voters decide if you made the right decision.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on June 01, 2022, 05:00:59 AM
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on May 31, 2022, 09:23:48 PM
The FreeDems will be happy to work with you on this just as soon as the TNC fulfills its campaign promise to their voters the TNC submits to our threats and helps us achieve what voters did not give us a mandate to achieve at the ballot box!
Fixed it for you.
If you consider the fact that the TNC also promised monarchy reform, there is actually a huge mandate for it.
Yeah, making hostile demands and threats can mess up even a good working environment.
The Senator from Florencia has been uncompromisingly nasty to me, personally, since he flounced from the previous coalition. He didn't even dignify the former Seneschal's apology with a response. The TNC election campaign was unremittingly negative and personalised, again against me personally. The working environment has been toxic for a long time - but y'all didn't mind as long as the toxicity was only going one way.
BTW, perhaps a note on the terms of the legislative boycott. I'm personally happy to work on drafts of TNC legislation in the Hopper (although I suppose the TNC are entitled to tell me to ir mhe façar hútschar , given the circumstances), because I don't anticipate the boycott will last forever, and I hope to be able to vote for good TNC-sponsored legislation sometime this term.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on June 01, 2022, 03:40:10 PM
The Senator from Florencia has been uncompromisingly nasty to me, personally, since he flounced from the previous coalition. He didn't even dignify the former Seneschal's apology with a response. The TNC election campaign was unremittingly negative and personalised, again against me personally. The working environment has been toxic for a long time - but y'all didn't mind as long as the toxicity was only going one way.
A majority of your recent speeches to your party have engaged in attacks on me, personally, often involving elaborate and childish name-calling. In fact, an attack on me was a centerpiece for your last major party address, calling me the "worst person in the world" as a setup for saying that, even though I was awful and wrong all the time, I was right when I pointed out your party's disastrous failures last term.
If your flexible memory needs the assistance of a link to the post, I am happy to supply it.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on June 01, 2022, 04:13:59 PM
BTW, perhaps a note on the terms of the legislative boycott. I'm personally happy to work on drafts of TNC legislation in the Hopper (although I suppose the TNC are entitled to tell me to ir mhe façar hútschar , given the circumstances), because I don't anticipate the boycott will last forever, and I hope to be able to vote for good TNC-sponsored legislation sometime this term.
I will continue to write and propose and comment on legislation, and I will value your counsel to the same degree as always.
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on June 01, 2022, 04:27:18 PM
an attack on me was a centerpiece for your last major party address, calling me the "worst person in the world"
... for those following at home, he's referring to this speech (https://freedems.proboards.com/post/769) referencing this famous meme. (https://clickhole.com/heartbreaking-the-worst-person-you-know-just-made-a-gr-1825121606/) I would
assume that most people would read that and see "light-hearted trolling of a political opponent while recognizing that they have a point on some issues". I would have actually considered it quite respectful, a back-handed compliment if you will. But this appears to be another case of "Sir Trotxa and the Killer Rabbit", if anyone remembers that sorry history. One person's friendly trolling is perceived as a grievous attack on the personal honour of the other, to be stewed over, to be used as a justification for retaliation somewhere down the line.
And none of this answers the question of what I ever did to Breneir!
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on June 01, 2022, 04:49:35 PM
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on June 01, 2022, 04:27:18 PM
an attack on me was a centerpiece for your last major party address, calling me the "worst person in the world"
... for those following at home, he's referring to this speech (https://freedems.proboards.com/post/769) referencing this famous meme. (https://clickhole.com/heartbreaking-the-worst-person-you-know-just-made-a-gr-1825121606/) I would assume that most people would read that and see "light-hearted trolling of a political opponent while recognizing that they have a point on some issues". I would have actually considered it quite respectful, a back-handed compliment if you will. But this appears to be another case of "Sir Trotxa and the Killer Rabbit", if anyone remembers that sorry history. One person's friendly trolling is perceived as a grievous attack on the personal honour of the other, to be stewed over, to be used as a justification for retaliation somewhere down the line.
If you think you're being respectful and complimentary, then you have larger problems than anyone here can solve. Maybe you've noticed other occasions besides these two, where your respectful compliments went awry? Do you think all the other insults directed at me, in paragraph length in your speeches, are somehow also supposed to be received as respectful compliments? Was I supposed to be flattered when you implied I was a rapist?
EDIT: Actually, as memory serves, you didn't imply directly that I was a rapist, you just said I was using a rapist's tactics.
... continued elsewhere
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on June 01, 2022, 08:23:25 AM
Yeah, making hostile demands and threats can mess up even a good working environment.
(https://i.imgflip.com/6iancf.jpg)
Take five minutes to do something you've already pledged to do. You are making a mountain out a molehill.
Let us know when the blockade has ended. Best of luck on RZ3.
Last term, this bill was blocked due to the Government legislative blockade. Legally, I was thus barred from reintroducing it during the same session. I intend to reintroduce it in the coming term. The bill will be nearly identical -- I don't think it needs any significant changes.
I'm still going to vote against it, if I'm an MC again. The right to sanctuary is a time-honoured one.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on January 03, 2023, 02:33:33 PMThe right to sanctuary is a time-honoured one.
And what does it mean in a Talossan context? Does it mean that I can break the law and then say that I'm claiming sanctuary from Talossans United in Christ or some other religion, and therefore I can't be prosecuted? Or do I have to go a church physically and take a picture that I'm in there, and then I can do some more crimes?
That second one! It sounds funnier.
Seriously, I can't believe we're in a position where I'm the one arguing against you against abolishing a quirky Talossan tradition. It's usually the other way around.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on January 03, 2023, 03:02:21 PMThat second one! It sounds funnier.
I'm not sure I want a Talossan who has been stalking or sexually harassing another Talossan, as an example, to be able to evade justice. This law will be a lot less cute and funny if someone does something grotesque and then gets to hang around because of an enabling system.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on January 03, 2023, 03:02:21 PMSeriously, I can't believe we're in a position where I'm the one arguing against you against abolishing a quirky Talossan tradition. It's usually the other way around.
It's a minor provision in the law that's never been used that originates in a bill that was clearly intended to be a messaging bill. I didn't cut it from the legal code when I was putting together el Lexhatx because I tried to include literally everything I could to avoid any potential fights.
I am reintroducing this act, unchanged.
Going to advise the FreeDems majority in the Senäts to reject any changes to this ancient, quirky Talossan tradition
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on February 04, 2023, 02:45:57 PMGoing to advise the FreeDems majority in the Senäts to reject any changes to this ancient, quirky Talossan tradition
As I said, it's a minor provision in the law that's never been used, and it originates from a messaging bill. It has no conceivable use except perhaps as a legal loophole to help someone escape justice. If the Ziu affirmatively chooses to debate the provision and retain it, that will lend it real weight as a possible strategy.
This bill has already been submitted to committee, but I must point out - again, my previous post was lost in the second data loss I believe- that the relevant subsection in the Lexhatx is § A.9 and not § A.10 (both in text and the quoted part).
Moreover, if I remember well in the last version pre-data loss the renumbering clause was omitted, which I still think it is the best course of action.
I reiterate my polite request to the proposer to leave this proposal in the Hopper for a while, the renumbering of precisely those sections is one of the parts I am trying to get to the bottom of.
Since it is not too urgent and since Title A is not particularly critical, I hope it will be possible to wait a little longer before clarking it.
Sure.
Appreciated.