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Las Intereçuns Speciais/Special Interests => Coletx d'Armeux Rexhital/The College of Arms => Topic started by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 05, 2022, 01:50:06 PM

Title: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 05, 2022, 01:50:06 PM
The official symbols and flags for the Cosa and the Senats were chosen in the seventeenth and twentieth Cosas, respectively.  Here they are, below:

Cosa

(https://wiki.talossa.com/images/4/4d/Cosa.png)    (https://wiki.talossa.com/images/c/c5/CosaFlag.gif)

Senats

(https://wiki.talossa.com/images/c/c8/Senats.png)    (https://wiki.talossa.com/images/0/0a/SenateFlag.gif)

As you can see, they have a pretty good design.  But there's an issue: they're stolen!  Not just the design, but the specific image is stolen from the official UK parliamentary logo!

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Crowned_Portcullis.svg)

I think this is sort of a problem when it comes to legal reasons -- but it's definitely pretty embarrassing, even if it's legal!  We need our own symbolism, or at least our own visuals for it.  This isn't something we can make happen, but we can formally advise the Ziu about it and make a recommendation.

Any thoughts from the rest of the Coletx?  Agreement, disagreement?

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP on July 06, 2022, 03:22:12 AM
Fully agree. Talossan symbols should be Talossan in nature.

The question, then, is what do we suggest replacing it with?
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on July 06, 2022, 07:20:16 AM
I also agree. As far as replacing it, maybe  going back to our Berber heritage, just like America looked back to the Romans for their aesthetic? I'll have to do some more research. Perhaps a symbol from the tifinagh. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tifinagh (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tifinagh)

-OAF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB on July 06, 2022, 10:02:06 AM
I didn't realize the images were plagiarized, but it does make sense in some ways. However, I also agree that we need our own symbols, designed by our own Coletx. A few of us in the Coletx are also either members of the Ziu or, like myself, allowed to propose legislation. We could craft something that everyone can agree on and put it in the hopper. A design can come after that.

-REH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 06, 2022, 12:08:22 PM
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on July 06, 2022, 07:20:16 AM
I also agree. As far as replacing it, maybe  going back to our Berber heritage, just like America looked back to the Romans for their aesthetic? I'll have to do some more research. Perhaps a symbol from the tifinagh. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tifinagh (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tifinagh)

-OAF
I like this general idea, but I'm wary of cultural appropriation, where we just take the ideas and history of another group and adopt them as our own with new meanings.  A lot of that happened early on in Talossan history, and much of our culture is based on King Robert's syncretic appropriations, but I think we should be careful about indulging in the practice anew.  So let's be cautious!

I'd really prefer to go to our own history, but unfortunately there's a reason we've abandoned nearly all early Talossan iconography: most of it was gross and fascist, born from the edginess of teenage boys in the eighties.

This might be an opportunity to just invent something new, also!

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 06, 2022, 08:16:10 PM
I had one idea to start with -- one of our oldest traditions is the Clark process, which began in Sep 1987.  It's named for Clark Graphics, the print shop which opened in 1985, since that's where the copies used to be made.  Until 2003, they had a blue and white color scheme throughout.  I contacted them to check.  I'd suggest those colors might be a good place to start.

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on July 06, 2022, 10:24:48 PM
I had no idea! That's a very interesting piece of Talossan culture and history. Argent and azure definitely go together.

I did a quick search of parliamentary symbols and found some interesting motifs that might get the creative juices flowing.

This one is pretty on the nose as a government building:
http://icons.iconarchive.com/icons/icons8/ios7/512/City-Parliament-icon.png

This one I thought was unique with its concentric circles, and it stands in stark contrast to the boxy portcullis:
(https://easac.eu/fileadmin/images/Logos/Publications/logo_european_parliament_EN2_3.JPG)

-OAF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Béneditsch Ardpresteir on July 08, 2022, 10:13:16 AM
The Portcullis has been used in various CoAs till date.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Portcullis_in_heraldry (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Portcullis_in_heraldry)

House of Commons, has it over Vert, whilst House of Lords has it over Rouge. Combined, they have it over the Talossan Flag.

Food for thought... should we, therefore, change our National Colours too?
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 08, 2022, 11:33:10 AM
Quote from: Béneditsch Ardpresteir on July 08, 2022, 10:13:16 AM
The Portcullis has been used in various CoAs till date.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Portcullis_in_heraldry (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Portcullis_in_heraldry)

House of Commons, has it over Vert, whilst House of Lords has it over Rouge. Combined, they have it over the Talossan Flag.

Food for thought... should we, therefore, change our National Colours too?

As far as I can tell, the crowned portcullis is a pretty specific British piece of imagery. The page you link has it used several times, and all of them seem to be in connection to the British Parliament.

I'm not arguing that the portcullis generally should be a restricted charge. But this specific piece of symbolism was very clearly stolen from the British Parliament to represent our own legislature, right down to the actual image itself being appropriated. The fact that it was stolen a long time ago now doesn't change the fact that it's embarrassing and unbecoming to our country. I mean, it's a very iconic image that's 200 years old... it's silly to steal it!

It doesn't actually even symbolize anything for us. There's never been any kind of portcullis of any importance in our country, whereas in the UK it represent the refurbished palace at Westminster after its 16th century rebuilding. We should have symbols that are meaningful to our country.

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Breneir Tzaracomprada on July 11, 2022, 08:03:52 AM
I wonder if a design using an artistic outline of our parliament building might be suitable.
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Bråneu Excelsio on July 11, 2022, 09:10:11 AM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on July 11, 2022, 08:03:52 AM
I wonder if a design using an artistic outline of our parliament building might be suitable.

Sounds like the best possible outcome imho.
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 11, 2022, 07:03:59 PM
That would be Merrill Hall for the Cosa: https://goo.gl/maps/wmq7TMHLMT5ZZHSj9

and Greene Hall for the Senate: https://goo.gl/maps/8JciaoptfGZUZ3X78

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 11, 2022, 09:20:00 PM
One thing that jumps out at me about Merrrill is that it's not symmetrical.  There are three dormers on the right side, and only two on the left.  And Greene is an adjacent building that's attached to Merrill and doesn't seem to have a front facade.  So they're not impossible to work with, but we'll need to be creative.

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP on July 12, 2022, 09:42:59 AM
I'm wondering if it may be possible to utilize some other building from the Milwaukee skyline. Preferably something from Talossan territory; the Allen-Bradley Clock Tower is a longtime MKE landmark, but is south of the river.

A few that could qualify:

Milwaukee City Hall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_City_Hall) -- it may not be the seat of our government, but it's the seat of a government (and is vaguely Big-Ben-esque, alluding to the current usage of the Parliamentary portcullis)

North Point Water Tower (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Point_Water_Tower) -- a historic landmark that happens to straddle the boundary between Vuode and Maritiimi-Maxhestic, locally important to the extent that it is mentioned in the Lex clause detailing the boundaries of Dun Cestour Canton.

Merrill and Greene Halls are the obvious choices, but given the oddity of their design I wanted to give us some alternatives.

- TLF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Breneir Tzaracomprada on July 12, 2022, 10:18:21 AM
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil, MoFA on July 12, 2022, 09:42:59 AM
I'm wondering if it may be possible to utilize some other building from the Milwaukee skyline. Preferably something from Talossan territory; the Allen-Bradley Clock Tower is a longtime MKE landmark, but is south of the river.

A few that could qualify:

Milwaukee City Hall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_City_Hall) -- it may not be the seat of our government, but it's the seat of a government (and is vaguely Big-Ben-esque, alluding to the current usage of the Parliamentary portcullis)

North Point Water Tower (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Point_Water_Tower) -- a historic landmark that happens to straddle the boundary between Vuode and Maritiimi-Maxhestic, locally important to the extent that it is mentioned in the Lex clause detailing the boundaries of Dun Cestour Canton.

Merrill and Greene Halls are the obvious choices, but given the oddity of their design I wanted to give us some alternatives.

- TLF

This is just me but I am interested in seeing some proposals for Merrill and Greene Halls. Their design oddity seems rather fitting for Talossan character to be honest. And they are our legislative sites by tradition.
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 12, 2022, 11:01:54 AM
I threw together a quick Merrill mockup.  Not sure how I feel about it, still.  It's kind of cool that it's asymmetrical, I guess.

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Breneir Tzaracomprada on July 12, 2022, 11:27:28 AM
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 12, 2022, 11:01:54 AM
I threw together a quick Merrill mockup.  Not sure how I feel about it, still.  It's kind of cool that it's asymmetrical, I guess.

-NRH

I know this is a starting point but I actually quite like the asymmetrical feature. That extra space makes for some nice design possibilities on the right.
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Breneir Tzaracomprada on July 12, 2022, 11:31:41 AM
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil, MoFA on July 12, 2022, 09:42:59 AM
I'm wondering if it may be possible to utilize some other building from the Milwaukee skyline. Preferably something from Talossan territory; the Allen-Bradley Clock Tower is a longtime MKE landmark, but is south of the river.

A few that could qualify:

Milwaukee City Hall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_City_Hall) -- it may not be the seat of our government, but it's the seat of a government (and is vaguely Big-Ben-esque, alluding to the current usage of the Parliamentary portcullis)

North Point Water Tower (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Point_Water_Tower) -- a historic landmark that happens to straddle the boundary between Vuode and Maritiimi-Maxhestic, locally important to the extent that it is mentioned in the Lex clause detailing the boundaries of Dun Cestour Canton.

Merrill and Greene Halls are the obvious choices, but given the oddity of their design I wanted to give us some alternatives.

- TLF

That water tower is beautiful.
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 12, 2022, 12:00:45 PM
Fun fact: Maritiimi-Maxhestic owns that tower, but Vuode owns the water inside.

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Breneir Tzaracomprada on July 12, 2022, 12:06:16 PM
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 12, 2022, 12:00:45 PM
Fun fact: Maritiimi-Maxhestic owns that tower, but Vuode owns the water inside.

-NRH

LOL! This hilarious trivia has inspired me to make a Talossan Fun Facts video for Fora Talossa
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP on July 12, 2022, 12:06:40 PM
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 12, 2022, 12:00:45 PM
Fun fact: Maritiimi-Maxhestic owns that tower, but Vuode owns the water inside.

-NRH

Let me guess -- water outlet pipe is on the Vuode side?

(Or this is just another Talossan "for the lulz" legal oddity... :P )

- TLF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 12, 2022, 06:24:27 PM
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil, MoFA on July 12, 2022, 12:06:40 PM
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 12, 2022, 12:00:45 PM
Fun fact: Maritiimi-Maxhestic owns that tower, but Vuode owns the water inside.

-NRH

Let me guess -- water outlet pipe is on the Vuode side?

(Or this is just another Talossan "for the lulz" legal oddity... :P )

- TLF

The border between the provinces seems to either split the tower in half (most likely) or possibly place the whole thing in M-M (also known as the Greatest Province), although it's not quite clear.  In 2013, it came under dispute briefly, and I proposed the current solution.  It didn't get codified into law until 2015's Rightfully Ours Act in M-M written by the current Seneschal, a provision that was not mirrored by Vuode.

QuoteTHE RIGHTFULLY OURS ACT

WHEREAS There seems to be some doubt as to whether or not Maritiimi-Maxhestic can claim ownership of the Historic Water Tower, and
WHEREAS We conducted a completely legitimate deal with Vuode concerning this, and
WHEREAS That deal gives us ownership of the Water Tower, and
WHEREAS Vuode will shortly become part of Maritiimi-Maxhestic anyway, and
WHEREAS It is unlikely that Vuodeans could suitably appreciate the Water Tower even if they did have a claim to it

THEREFORE Maritiimi-Maxhestic hereby reaffirms it's rightful claim to the Historic Water Tower, while also recognizing Vuode's claim to the water contained within the Tower.

Uréu q'estadra så;
Ian Plätschisch

This position was informally affirmed by the sole active Vuodean shortly thereafter during merger talks, and their own laws about canton borders seem to specifically also agree.  This puts the legal status in a sort of nebulous gray area, but since the truth and necessary outcome are obvious that barely matters.

Speaking of which, maybe we should restart those merger talks under the previously-agreed terms.  Etho wrote a great prospective constitution.

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on July 14, 2022, 11:57:42 AM
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 12, 2022, 11:01:54 AM
I threw together a quick Merrill mockup.  Not sure how I feel about it, still.  It's kind of cool that it's asymmetrical, I guess.

-NRH

That's a very good start Baron! If you break it up with windows similar to the actual building, I think it would have a similar look to the portcullis, but still be unique to Talossa.

-OAF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 21, 2022, 09:00:01 PM
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on July 14, 2022, 11:57:42 AM
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 12, 2022, 11:01:54 AM
I threw together a quick Merrill mockup.  Not sure how I feel about it, still.  It's kind of cool that it's asymmetrical, I guess.

-NRH

That's a very good start Baron! If you break it up with windows similar to the actual building, I think it would have a similar look to the portcullis, but still be unique to Talossa.

-OAF

Really?  Okay, I'll take another pass at it (or anyone else is also welcome to do so).  I'll add stylized windows and fiddle with the dimensions.

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on August 05, 2022, 02:28:49 PM
So I took a wag at using the Noir Raven Herald's base. I'm looking for some feedback before I get in too deep  ;D



- OAF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP on August 05, 2022, 02:36:57 PM
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on August 05, 2022, 02:28:49 PM
So I took a wag at using the Noir Raven Herald's base. I'm looking for some feedback before I get in too deep  ;D



- OAF
I actually rather like the badge that uses just the central tower, the last one you have uploaded, though both of them are good.

- TLF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB on August 05, 2022, 03:32:00 PM
I like the simplicity of the single tower.

-REH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on August 08, 2022, 11:26:23 AM
Thank you all for the feedback! Here is the full set using just the central tower.

-OAF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on August 08, 2022, 11:53:02 AM
Looks great! If you feel up to it, I'd also suggest maybe taking a run at an entirely new version of the flag. The current design is neither pretty nor practical, in my opinion, and if we're already shifting then it makes sense to explore different possibilities.

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on August 08, 2022, 12:09:42 PM
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on August 08, 2022, 11:53:02 AM
Looks great! If you feel up to it, I'd also suggest maybe taking a run at an entirely new version of the flag. The current design is neither pretty nor practical, in my opinion, and if we're already shifting then it makes sense to explore different possibilities.

-NRH

Thank you! I'll do a little brainstorming on the flag and see what falls out  ;D

-OAF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Danihel Txechescu on August 08, 2022, 03:43:05 PM
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on August 08, 2022, 11:26:23 AMThank you all for the feedback! Here is the full set using just the central tower.

If I may approach the College, I have a comment regarding this design.

It is absolutely marvelous to see something new, fresh and definitive for the Ziu, but I believe the isolated symbol (middle of the building) is very difficult to understand without looking at the image of the entire building first. I mean, just looking at that alone... what is it?

Also, is it supposed to be funny with the eyes and the mouth? Not that it was put there intentionally, but I feel it demerits the seriousness of the house of law that it should represent.
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on August 08, 2022, 04:04:48 PM
Quote from: Danihel Txechescu on August 08, 2022, 03:43:05 PM
Also, is it supposed to be funny with the eyes and the mouth? Not that it was put there intentionally, but I feel it demerits the seriousness of the house of law that it should represent.

Thank you for your comments! No, it's not meant to be a face or to be funny, that's how the windows at the front of the building look.

(https://www.december.com/places/mke/images/uwmmh.jpg)

-OAF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on August 08, 2022, 06:15:06 PM
That's a pretty good and valuable point from someone who hadn't already seen the source image. We don't want this whole thing to be opaque and silly looking to people who don't already know its meaning.

I wonder if the fact that the building facade is within a frame is what makes it hard to parse. Would it be better without the decorative frame, possibly?

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on August 08, 2022, 08:12:50 PM
Or perhaps focusing on the top half of the facade which is the most unique part of it, and would keep it from looking like a face... I can also do a couple of details on the towers on either side as well.

-OAF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB on August 08, 2022, 08:15:48 PM
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on August 08, 2022, 08:12:50 PM
Or perhaps focusing on the top half of the facade which is the most unique part of it, and would keep it from looking like a face... I can also do a couple of details on the towers on either side as well.

-OAF

I like this version as well.

-REH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on August 09, 2022, 11:55:05 AM
I've done a little embellishment. Submitted for your review.

-OAF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Breneir Tzaracomprada on August 09, 2022, 12:02:24 PM
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on August 09, 2022, 11:55:05 AM
I've done a little embellishment. Submitted for your review.

-OAF

This is lovely, Carlus!
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on August 09, 2022, 12:08:52 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on August 09, 2022, 12:02:24 PM
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on August 09, 2022, 11:55:05 AM
I've done a little embellishment. Submitted for your review.

-OAF

This is lovely, Carlus!


Thank you!

I thought the bottom looked a little strange so here is a version cropped.

-OAF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on August 09, 2022, 12:28:00 PM
I like that a lot. A stylized representation of the top of the Merrill building... That seems very suitable.

It's basically a square in proportions, so I think any containers or borders around it should be rounded squares. They should preferably also be simple, since the emblem itself is quite visually complex already. We can't just differentiate with red and green, since the most common form of color blindness prevents people from being able to distinguish those easily. Maybe each house of the Ziu gets a different style of border? Like the Cosa gets a single line border, while the Senats gets a triple line?

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on August 09, 2022, 01:51:36 PM
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on August 09, 2022, 12:28:00 PM
I like that a lot. A stylized representation of the top of the Merrill building... That seems very suitable.

It's basically a square in proportions, so I think any containers or borders around it should be rounded squares. They should preferably also be simple, since the emblem itself is quite visually complex already. We can't just differentiate with red and green, since the most common form of color blindness prevents people from being able to distinguish those easily. Maybe each house of the Ziu gets a different style of border? Like the Cosa gets a single line border, while the Senats gets a triple line?

-NRH

Something kind of like this?

-OAF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on August 09, 2022, 02:25:33 PM
That is superlative! I would submit this right now for emblems for the houses! Great work!

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP on August 09, 2022, 02:30:10 PM
I like the idea of differentiating the borders based on house, since that avoids some of the color problem. However, I kept the seals circular, in part because in my opinion a circle works better in the center of a flag.

I've chosen to separate the national colors between the houses for three reasons: one, as a flag design, this gives us more space without having to feel like we cannot straddle a division of the field. Two, the red in the Bicoloreu represents the Talossan people and their tenacity -- thus, as the more directly elected "popular" house, it is fitting that the Cosă uses this red. Three, green being the upper stripe and red the lower stripe is analogous to upper and lower houses.

The Senäts' more ornamental border includes eight red jewels to represent the eight provinces of the nation.

- TLF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on August 09, 2022, 02:37:47 PM
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil, MoFA on August 09, 2022, 02:30:10 PM
I like the idea of differentiating the borders based on house, since that avoids some of the color problem. However, I kept the seals circular, in part because in my opinion a circle works better in the center of a flag.

I've chosen to separate the national colors between the houses for three reasons: one, as a flag design, this gives us more space without having to feel like we cannot straddle a division of the field. Two, the red in the Bicoloreu represents the Talossan people and their tenacity -- thus, as the more directly elected "popular" house, it is fitting that the Cosă uses this red. Three, green being the upper stripe and red the lower stripe is analogous to upper and lower houses.

The Senäts' more ornamental border includes eight red jewels to represent the eight provinces of the nation.

- TLF

These are beautiful Long Fellow!

- OAF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Breneir Tzaracomprada on August 09, 2022, 02:48:05 PM
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil, MoFA on August 09, 2022, 02:30:10 PM
I like the idea of differentiating the borders based on house, since that avoids some of the color problem. However, I kept the seals circular, in part because in my opinion a circle works better in the center of a flag.

I've chosen to separate the national colors between the houses for three reasons: one, as a flag design, this gives us more space without having to feel like we cannot straddle a division of the field. Two, the red in the Bicoloreu represents the Talossan people and their tenacity -- thus, as the more directly elected "popular" house, it is fitting that the Cosă uses this red. Three, green being the upper stripe and red the lower stripe is analogous to upper and lower houses.

The Senäts' more ornamental border includes eight red jewels to represent the eight provinces of the nation.

- TLF

Excellent work
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP on August 09, 2022, 03:06:14 PM
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on August 09, 2022, 02:37:47 PMThese are beautiful Long Fellow!

- OAF

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on August 09, 2022, 02:48:05 PMExcellent work

Thank you both!

- TLF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on August 09, 2022, 03:09:11 PM
I personally prefer the simpler ones, but I do love how the more ornate ones look on the flag. Maybe the simple ones become the basic emblems and the more ornate ones for the flag?

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on August 09, 2022, 03:11:12 PM
Actually, there's no reason at all that both sets can't be adopted! Now that I think about it, there's a lot of times you might want to use a simpler logo, and other times you want something fancier. For the top of stationary, for example, you probably want the simple logo. For the top of a pronouncement, you probably want the fancy one.

How would people feel about offering both sets to the Ziu?

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on August 09, 2022, 03:29:47 PM
This was my flag idea inspired by the tierce of the Lesser State Seal. I originally had the colors the original way, but I like the Long Fellow's reversal because it makes more sense.

I do think they would probably look better with the Long Fellows more ornate borders.

- OAF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB on August 09, 2022, 03:54:54 PM
Amazing work. Thank you for taking this on!

-REH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP on August 09, 2022, 04:03:52 PM
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on August 09, 2022, 03:29:47 PM
This was my flag idea inspired by the tierce of the Lesser State Seal. I originally had the colors the original way, but I like the Long Fellow's reversal because it makes more sense.

I do think they would probably look better with the Long Fellows more ornate borders.

- OAF

Using the Lesser State Seal as a template is a great idea -- it also helps to break up what I will admit was a somewhat boring field on my previous designs. :P

If we incorporate my seal/border design, this is how they come out.

- TLF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP on September 20, 2022, 06:23:50 AM
Alright, getting back into the swing of a few designs here. One silver lining about a hard reset on life is that the time off means I can come back and look at designs with some fresh eyes. I didn't really redesign anything this thread concerns, but I did realize I hadn't created any versions of the seals with transparent backgrounds, so...

(https://y.yarn.co/f603e106-bacb-468e-b03d-24deb28777ff_text.gif)

Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Breneir Tzaracomprada on September 20, 2022, 07:31:16 AM
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil, MC EiP on September 20, 2022, 06:23:50 AMAlright, getting back into the swing of a few designs here. One silver lining about a hard reset on life is that the time off means I can come back and look at designs with some fresh eyes. I didn't really redesign anything this thread concerns, but I did realize I hadn't created any versions of the seals with transparent backgrounds, so...

(https://y.yarn.co/f603e106-bacb-468e-b03d-24deb28777ff_text.gif)



These are wonderful!
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB on September 20, 2022, 07:36:26 AM
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil, MC EiP on September 20, 2022, 06:23:50 AMAlright, getting back into the swing of a few designs here. One silver lining about a hard reset on life is that the time off means I can come back and look at designs with some fresh eyes. I didn't really redesign anything this thread concerns, but I did realize I hadn't created any versions of the seals with transparent backgrounds, so...

(https://y.yarn.co/f603e106-bacb-468e-b03d-24deb28777ff_text.gif)



Nice work.

-SVA/REH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB on November 28, 2022, 04:46:39 PM
What is the status of this request?

-SVA/REH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on November 29, 2022, 10:26:40 AM
I guess it's not clear the next steps here, since there's no official applicant.  I'd suggest that maybe the way to go is for the Coletx (in your person) recommend a course of action to the Ziu, and then a legislator can act on that.  Maybe the way to go is to recommend that they delete the current symbols from el Lexh, and then recommend substitute blazons?
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on November 29, 2022, 10:37:01 AM
I think these are the blazons as they seem to be, to the best of my ability.  Whether the Ziu will prefer Carlus' or Mic'haglh's emblazonment is up to that body.

Device of the Cosa:  Argent, the facade of Merrill Hall sable, within an engrailed bordure or.
Device of the Senats: Argent, the facade of Merrill Hall sable, within a braided bordure or studded with eight jewels gules.
Flag of the Cosa: A 2:3 vertically striped bicolour of green and red, charged on the fly side with the device of the Cosa.
Flag of the Senats: A 2:3 vertically striped bicolour of red and green, charged on the fly side with the device of the Senats.
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB on November 29, 2022, 11:48:46 AM
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on November 29, 2022, 10:26:40 AMI guess it's not clear the next steps here, since there's no official applicant.  I'd suggest that maybe the way to go is for the Coletx (in your person) recommend a course of action to the Ziu, and then a legislator can act on that.  Maybe the way to go is to recommend that they delete the current symbols from el Lexh, and then recommend substitute blazons?

Okay. I'll table this then until we have a new Cosa.
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Béneditsch Ardpresteir on January 24, 2023, 11:32:54 PM
Window panes in heraldry is uncommon, but still it exists.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Windows_in_heraldry

Why don't we substitute the portcullis with the distinct windowpanes of the Greene Hall and the Merill Hall for the Senate and the Cosa respectively?

https://ibb.co/kmMg5hX (https://ibb.co/kmMg5hX) (http://[url="https://ibb.co/kmMg5hX"%5D)

https://ibb.co/L8xHh82 (https://ibb.co/L8xHh82) (https://ibb.co/L8xHh82)
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on February 12, 2023, 06:49:00 PM
I've moved forward with this in my capacity as an MC. Does anyone feel any particular way about reversing the color dispositions of the flags?

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB on February 13, 2023, 07:37:41 AM
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on February 12, 2023, 06:49:00 PMI've moved forward with this in my capacity as an MC. Does anyone feel any particular way about reversing the color dispositions of the flags?

-NRH

No problem. Thanks.

-SVA/REH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on March 13, 2023, 10:09:22 AM
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on February 12, 2023, 06:49:00 PMI've moved forward with this in my capacity as an MC. Does anyone feel any particular way about reversing the color dispositions of the flags?

-NRH

I know it's probably a little late, but what is the reasoning behind switch the colors? My original idea of having the Cosa be 2/3 Red vs the Senäts being 2/3 green is based on the idea that the Senäts is a higher "house" and therefore closer to the King.  The green in the flag symbolises the Monarchy and its magnanimity, while the the red stands for the Talossans and their tenacity. (https://wiki.talossa.com/Symbols) Similar to the House of Commons/House of Lords distinction in the UK Parliament.

EDIT:
I see the originals had the Senäts and Cosa on the red and green respectively, but the new way makes more sense to me, as explained above.

-TFF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Üc R. Tärfă on March 13, 2023, 10:32:39 AM
Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on March 13, 2023, 10:09:22 AM
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on February 12, 2023, 06:49:00 PMI've moved forward with this in my capacity as an MC. Does anyone feel any particular way about reversing the color dispositions of the flags?

-NRH

I know it's probably a little late, but what is the reasoning behind switch the colors? My original idea of having the Cosa be 2/3 Red vs the Senäts being 2/3 green is based on the idea that the Senäts is a higher "house" and therefore closer to the King.  The green in the flag symbolises the Monarchy and its magnanimity, while the the red stands for the Talossans and their tenacity. (https://wiki.talossa.com/Symbols) Similar to the House of Commons/House of Lords distinction in the UK Parliament.

EDIT:
I see the originals had the Senäts and Cosa on the red and green respectively, but the new way makes more sense to me, as explained above.

-TFF

I suggested the change in the Hopper to refectl the use in westminter style parliaments that have the red for the upper house and the green for the lower one, which derives from the use of red in western tradition to denotes higher power because of the association made in ancient Rome.

I remember that there were other posts here that supported the change proposed but they are now lost because of the first data loss.
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on March 13, 2023, 10:35:45 AM
I see, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation!

-TFF
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Üc R. Tärfă on March 13, 2023, 10:40:18 AM
Moreover: in the now soon-to-be replaced flags the red was already associated with the Senäts and the green with the Cosă:

Senäts
(https://wiki.talossa.com/images/0/0a/SenateFlag.gif)

Cosă:
(https://wiki.talossa.com/images/c/c5/CosaFlag.gif)
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Üc R. Tärfă on March 13, 2023, 10:48:06 AM
Btw: in the data loss we lost the file of the new symbols they should be retrieved and added on the wiki when the law is passed.

Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Béneditsch Ardpresteir on March 14, 2023, 09:02:26 AM
I am in agreement with Uc Tarfa.

In fact he (Uc Tarfa) probably refers to my post which now stands deleted/lost.

Ideally, to my understanding, the Red should be for the Upper House (Senats) and the Green for the Lower (Cosa).
 
Plus, am not at all in favour of using the facade of the Merill Hall for the Senats as well, since our Senate is housed in the Greene Hall and not the in an unified building a la Westminister.

Can't help if the Herald(s) choose not to heed the SKA's observations.   
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Üc R. Tärfă on March 22, 2023, 12:26:22 PM
Quote from: Béneditsch Ardpresteir on March 14, 2023, 09:02:26 AMCan't help if the Herald(s) choose not to heed the SKA's observations.   

58RZ4 was clarked so now is the law. However the Ziu is open to accept any raccomandation of the Royal College of Arms on that part: according to the law in the end that is the job of the Royal College to create and maintain all Talossan flags and coats of arms and achievements

I'm not a member and I'll not continue on this, I just came here to remember that:
now 58RZ4 is the law, so we need the file of the new symbols!
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 22, 2023, 12:34:39 PM
Uc, perhaps you'd be interested in joining the Coletx?  You're a very active Talossan and I'm sure we'd all love to have you.

There is no official version of the symbols and flag at this time.  The Ziu has adopted recommended blazons for the arms and flags, but not official image files.  I'd suggest it would be most proper for the Tui to select appropriate images that match those blazons.  As it happens, @Mic'haglh Autófil, MC EiP created some earlier, higher up in the thread. We could contact him to see if we can get the vector versions, perhaps?

-NRH
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB on March 22, 2023, 01:28:46 PM
58RZ4 is not law until the King assents or his time to do so runs out.
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Üc R. Tärfă on March 22, 2023, 07:34:00 PM
Quote from: Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB on March 22, 2023, 01:28:46 PM58RZ4 is not law until the King assents or his time to do so runs out.

You're right S:reu Secretar of course. ;D  I was just re-bumping that: in few days we will be with symbols that won't match the description, and they are used extensively in every statute for example.
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP on May 21, 2023, 08:46:45 PM
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 22, 2023, 12:34:39 PMUc, perhaps you'd be interested in joining the Coletx?  You're a very active Talossan and I'm sure we'd all love to have you.

There is no official version of the symbols and flag at this time.  The Ziu has adopted recommended blazons for the arms and flags, but not official image files.  I'd suggest it would be most proper for the Tui to select appropriate images that match those blazons.  As it happens, @Mic'haglh Autófil, MC EiP created some earlier, higher up in the thread. We could contact him to see if we can get the vector versions, perhaps?

-NRH

Let me know if these have attached correctly? It certainly looks like it on my end, but you never know.

- TLF

Edit: I see we've chosen to swap the color order between the two?
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP on July 23, 2023, 11:56:07 PM
Flag emblazonments have been brought into line with their now legally-specified designs.
Title: Re: Symbols of the Ziu
Post by: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 24, 2023, 11:51:37 AM
Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil, SMM MC EiP on July 23, 2023, 11:56:07 PMFlag emblazonments have been brought into line with their now legally-specified designs.
Thanks! I am on the road, but when I get a chance I will update the wiki.

-NRH