Wittenberg

The Ziu => The Lobby => Topic started by: Glüc da Dhi S.H. on March 01, 2020, 04:46:44 PM

Title: MCs for the 54th Cosa
Post by: Glüc da Dhi S.H. on March 01, 2020, 04:46:44 PM
Will include the full list soon-ish.

Post your re-assignments here...
Title: Re: MCs for the 54th Cosa
Post by: Eðo Grischun on March 01, 2020, 06:22:12 PM
I have just cast my votes on the 3rd Clark via the DB, and now I, Éovart Grischun MC, hereby resign my Cosa seats and from the 54th Cosa.

Per the Cosa list rules, up to one third of party seats may be filled by non-list members.  The PNP wishes to reassign Cosa seats as follows:

@Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN - 17 Seats
@Miestrâ Schiva, UrN - 2 Seats
@Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. - 2 Seats
@Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă - 2 Seats
@Þon Txoteu É. Davinescu - 2 Seats
Title: Re: MCs for the 54th Cosa
Post by: Glüc da Dhi S.H. on March 03, 2020, 09:41:23 AM
I have just cast my votes on the 3rd Clark via the DB, and now I, Éovart Grischun MC, hereby resign my Cosa seats and from the 54th Cosa.

Some confusion about what exactly the intention is here.
I'm guessing it's not to have your MC votes count, then resign and then also vote as a Senator and have other MC's appointed who vote using the PNP seats as well, cause that probably shouldn't be possible.

I'd say either you are not an MC this clark (in which case your MC votes don't count) or you are, but then your resignation (and the corresponding MC/Senate appointments) only take effect once the clark ends.
Title: Re: MCs for the 54th Cosa
Post by: Eðo Grischun on March 03, 2020, 10:07:37 AM
I have just cast my votes on the 3rd Clark via the DB, and now I, Éovart Grischun MC, hereby resign my Cosa seats and from the 54th Cosa.

Some confusion about what exactly the intention is here.
I'm guessing it's not to have your MC votes count, then resign and then also vote as a Senator and have other MC's appointed who vote using the PNP seats as well, cause that probably shouldn't be possible.

I'd say either you are not an MC this clark (in which case your MC votes don't count) or you are, but then your resignation (and the corresponding MC/Senate appointments) only take effect once the clark ends.

Oh, no, no.  I know full well that I won't be able to vote the Senate seat until the next Clark.  That was always going to be the case because V's appointment to the UC and the appointment of an interim Senator was always going to happen too late to count for this Clark.  (The convention you usually have used in the past is that re-shuffles take effect upon the next available Clark).

So, I voted my MCs seats (as I still was an MC legally), then resigned before V appointed me to fill out his Senate Term.  I won't be able to vote in the Senate until next month and the reassignment of the PNP seats shouldn't take effect until next Clark as well.

I specifically waited for the Clark to begin so that the Cosa changes wouldn't take effect straight away.  As I said, convention in the past has always been that once a Clark has begun then changes take effect the following Clark.  And, as the Senate seat would not have been able to be voted on regardless, then I was risking not having a vote in either House this month.

So, yeah.  I voted as an MC, which should count.  THEN I resigned THEN was appointed to the Senate.  But all these changes don't count yet for Clark purposes.  Yeah?
Title: Re: MCs for the 54th Cosa
Post by: luc on March 03, 2020, 10:10:58 AM
I think the confusion stems from the fact that historically reassignments have been valid at any time, including during a Clark (if of course those seats hadn't been voted yet). You could have not voted as an MC, reassigned the seats and then accepted the Senate seat and voted there on this month's Clark, and in my judgement it would have been totally in order.
Title: Re: MCs for the 54th Cosa
Post by: Eðo Grischun on March 03, 2020, 10:13:50 AM
I think the confusion stems from the fact that historically reassignments have been valid at any time, including during a Clark (if of course those seats hadn't been voted yet). You could have not voted as an MC, reassigned the seats and then accepted the Senate seat and voted there on this month's Clark, and in my judgement it would have been totally in order.

I'm not sure that is the case.  I'm pretty sure Cosa reassignments have only ever counted for the next available Clark, not for the Clark in which they happened. 
Title: Re: MCs for the 54th Cosa
Post by: luc on March 03, 2020, 10:22:27 AM
I think the confusion stems from the fact that historically reassignments have been valid at any time, including during a Clark (if of course those seats hadn't been voted yet). You could have not voted as an MC, reassigned the seats and then accepted the Senate seat and voted there on this month's Clark, and in my judgement it would have been totally in order.

I'm not sure that is the case.  I'm pretty sure Cosa reassignments have only ever counted for the next available Clark, not for the Clark in which they happened.

That was not the case under the last SoS (https://talossa.proboards.com/thread/10798/first-clark-underway-cosa-unseated), but this has not happened yet under Glüc, so... the ball is in his court.
Title: Re: MCs for the 54th Cosa
Post by: Glüc da Dhi S.H. on March 03, 2020, 10:30:55 AM
Don't have time to look up all the precedent and laws now, but to my mind Lüc is right, meaning status changes can happen during the clark and the record only becomes permanent at the end of the clark. I would assume that is how mpf acted and how I would have acted had it come up. So if that's true (and from Lüc's post I gather it is) then either option is fine (just not both).
Title: Re: MCs for the 54th Cosa
Post by: luc on March 03, 2020, 11:17:57 AM
Well anyway, this matters because if Eðo is Senator, then he probably can vote on RS1/2/3. Also, a date when the term begins has to be set for seniority purposes - so has the term begun?

I appreciate that this is an internal matter so it's technically my call, but I still am confused as to what the situation is.
Title: Re: MCs for the 54th Cosa
Post by: Eðo Grischun on March 03, 2020, 11:33:41 AM
I've had a quick search.

A similar instance appeared in the July 2013 Clark, where the SoS at the time didn't reassign 3 NPW seats until the following Clark.  Commentary at the time seems to conclude that "seats reassigned DURING an ongoing Clark are not effective until the following clark."

Then going back to 2007, Mick Preston also had a similar incident and concluded "we can't reassign the seats until AFTER the current Clark".

I can't find the posts (Proboards search function isn't the best), but I'm fairly certain that in the past I, myself, have had a seat reassignment blocked and held until the next available Clark.

Reading through what I can find it seems that Mick Preston and his immediate successor both operated a policy where seat shuffles only took effect on the next Clark, not on the same Clark.  This changed with MPF taking office and seems to continue today.  Now I'm thinking on it, I can vaguely remember him making this change and disagreeing with it at the time.

I still think that once a Clark has begun then seats shouldn't be reassigned to then be voted with.  My appointment to the Senate happening after the Clark had begun, I believe, means I could not vote that seat even if I hadn't have voted in the Cosa. 

We can have different opinions on this.  It makes no difference to what's happened here.  I've voted the Cosa seats, so the reassignment of those 8 seats can't take effect until the 21st of this month.  The Senate seat can't be voted on until next month (which I, again, argue was always going to be the case because the appointment happened AFTER the Clark had begun).
Title: Re: MCs for the 54th Cosa
Post by: Eðo Grischun on March 03, 2020, 11:37:11 AM
Well anyway, this matters because if Eðo is Senator, then he probably can vote on RS1/2/3. Also, a date when the term begins has to be set for seniority purposes - so has the term begun?

I appreciate that this is an internal matter so it's technically my call, but I still am confused as to what the situation is.

That's tricky.  I'm not sure how an internal Senate vote factors in.  I mean, technically the term has begun, but I can't vote on the Clark.  Senate resolutions... I dunno.

(I suppose it might be quite similar to the Amada Methedes situation we just had.  Barred from Clark voting, but she was able to vote SR's.  Still not sure.)
Title: Re: MCs for the 54th Cosa
Post by: Miestră Schivă, UrN on March 03, 2020, 02:38:36 PM
IMHO it would be fairer if the reassignment happened immediately, in that V has already resigned as Senator, so if we wait till the end of the Clark, then Vuode doesn't get a Senäts vote this time. And thus Eðo's vote should be recorded in the Senäts rather than the Cosa. But I don't suppose it matters much either way.
Title: Re: MCs for the 54th Cosa
Post by: Ian Plätschisch on March 22, 2020, 05:16:36 PM
AMP seat reassignments:

Breneir Itravilatx - 20
Cresti da Ion Nouacastra-Läxhirescu - 20
Jordan Placie - 6 (He's been busy lately, and he is certainly the easiest person for me to remind).