Fora Talossa News Alert - TNC and RCT announce election coalitionFT News Alert for 2 December 2022 - TNC announces RCT support and pact ahead of Talossa's 58th General Election
Guess it's full circle for "Mad Max" Carbonel:
2003: Intransigent monarchist and even at that stage, inveterate party-jumper. See G. Valcádac'h, A Nation Sundered (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tkPfJZWnop153bl1Djy3bgUib6LOrHQ3/view), pp. 42 onwards. Bonus quote: "THE KING SHOULD REMOVE YOUR HEAD OFF THE TOP OF YOUR BODY"
2013: Intransigent Republican (https://talossa.proboards.com/post/105543). Quits the then-ZRT because we weren't Republican enough (actually because we got tired of his unreliability on Cosă votes and
his continuous demands)
2022: Back to the GOD SAVE THE KING camp???
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on December 02, 2022, 01:13:37 PMGuess it's full circle for "Mad Max" Carbonel
I'm not sure that you're being respectful or kind to Mximo with the name-calling, here. Earlier in this term, we all pledged to try raising the level of political discourse by improving how we treat each other -- let's try to stick to that even as election season approaches, if we can.
Colonel Carbonèl's record of political inconsistency and controversial statements is absolutely a fair point to raise if the TNC think an alliance with him is something that will attract, rather than repel, votes.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on December 02, 2022, 07:32:46 PMColonel Carbonèl's record of political inconsistency and controversial statements is absolutely a fair point to raise if the TNC think an alliance with him is something that will attract, rather than repel, votes.
And here we go...
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on December 02, 2022, 07:32:46 PMColonel Carbonèl's record of political inconsistency and controversial statements is absolutely a fair point to raise if the TNC think an alliance with him is something that will attract, rather than repel, votes.
I am sure you can make cogent political points, even critical ones, without being disrespectful or calling people names. You are a very skilled communicator.
Whilst I understand the above about being disrespectful, which is something we do need to do our best not to be, i cant help but notice that the criticisms, that Miestra has put forward in her first comment, and her follow up comments on how this will HELP the TNC, have not been address, yes you have every right to call out what you see as disrespectful behaviour, but not at the cost of avoiding valid political points, and using that as a Deflection.
So with the above said, what is, in your opinion, there to gain from this alliance, especially given Mximo's pattern of flip flopping, and valid points about why Mximo left the ZRT, that Miestra raised? These are valid points that i believe warrant a response from the TNC
If the TNC's belief was that "respectful campaigning" mean that they would get to make alliances with some of the more bizarre and controversial figures in Talossan history - and then cry crocodile tears about "disrespect" when called out on this by their opponents - then get used to disappointment.
I'm not sure what requires explanation? Mximo and the voters who might agree with his perspective have committed to supporting a potential TNC government after seeing the effective opposition and consistent activity for which we've advocated. I don't really see how that obliges the TNC to defend every twist and turn in twenty years of his career in Talossa.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on December 02, 2022, 09:15:04 PMIf the TNC's belief was that "respectful campaigning" mean that they would get to make alliances with some of the more bizarre and controversial figures in Talossan history - and then cry crocodile tears about "disrespect" when called out on this by their opponents - then get used to disappointment.
I think you're conflating criticism with disrespectful name-calling. It's possible to make your point without inventing disrespectful nicknames for people.
The TNC meant it when we pledged with every other party to try to raise the level of discourse by trying to treat even our opponents with kindness and respect. Even now that it's campaign season, we'll try our best to maintain that.
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 02, 2022, 10:40:29 PMI'm not sure what requires explanation? Mximo and the voters who might agree with his perspective have committed to supporting a potential TNC government after seeing the effective opposition and consistent activity for which we've advocated. I don't really see how that obliges the TNC to defend every twist and turn in twenty years of his career in Talossa.
The fact the the TNC has confirmed a coalition with Mximo, of whatever kind, especially with an individual with such inconsistent positions and conflicts with parties/agreements such as this, over the years does, reflect on the TNC, and such associations do raise valid questions, which in general, is not unreasonable to expect an answer as how this does not reflect on the character of the TNC. I am not seeking an essay on the TNC's position on Miximo's entire political history, but raising a pattern of behaviour and asking how this does not reflect the TNC's values as a whole, given said associations, is a valid point to bring up, that is also pertinent to potential voters.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on December 02, 2022, 08:22:02 AMFora Talossa News Alert - TNC and RCT announce election coalition
FT News Alert for 2 December 2022 - TNC announces RCT support and pact ahead of Talossa's 58th General Election
Bump
Quote from: Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on December 03, 2022, 06:49:28 AMThe fact the the TNC has confirmed a coalition with Mximo, of whatever kind, especially with an individual with such inconsistent positions and conflicts with parties/agreements such as this, over the years does, reflect on the TNC, and such associations do raise valid questions, which in general, is not unreasonable to expect an answer as how this does not reflect on the character of the TNC. I am not seeking an essay on the TNC's position on Miximo's entire political history, but raising a pattern of behaviour and asking how this does not reflect the TNC's values as a whole, given said associations, is a valid point to bring up, that is also pertinent to potential voters.
Okay, sure. I'm not sure I can speak for Mximo, but I'd guess that probably he's impressed with the consistent effort and patriotism of the Talossan National Congress, as well as our roster of active Talossans who are eager to actually do stuff in the country. Maybe he also thinks that
six years of FDT government is more than enough, and that it's time for a change.
As for what this says about the Talossan National Congress, I don't know. I guess maybe this: we're happy and eager to work with anyone who wants to forge a path to a more active and happy Talossan future, even if we don't agree on every issue now or in the past.
This is the kind of politics of the party in power. Out of context quotes from another era. Maybe the reason why I didn't receive an official invitation for the living cosa last month? For many years we have been painting a portrait of who I am without really knowing myself. The Freedems are very happy with the understanding to maintain the monarchy. They are the first to say that we have to move on. No party is really republican anymore and as a democrat I note that the population by referendum said no to a republic. Destroying past discussion forum archives is a practical thing. We keep quotes, to bury people, but I can't get quotes out to expose you. I thought reunification was an exercise in forgetting the past. Is it just me who is not entitled to forgiveness for actions committed during the civil war?
Now let's get back to the Freedem 6 months term in office?
Mximo Carbonèl
Just checking whether the TNC back their new allies' wild accusations that: a) Free Democrats made sure he wouldn't hear about about the Living Cosa; (b) we apparently "destroyed past discussion forum archives" (you mean these ones? (https://talossa.proboards.com))
The TNC have shown a pattern that they will make alliances with literally anyone and take on their howsoever wild policy proposals if they think it'll get them 1 more vote. Who knows, the utter shamelessness of trying to build a party behind formerly intransigent Republican activists AND the most hardcore Monarchists might win elections in the short term. But at what cost to the possibility of coherent government afterwards?
As I said, I don't agree with Mximo about everything. I don't think there was a conspiracy to keep him from the Living Cosa, for example.
Another error is about how long the FDT has been in office. It's not six terms -- it's actually
eight! That's added up to a total of six years, what with the regular no-business months and election months and whatnot. Our country desperately needs a change.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on December 03, 2022, 04:15:29 PMThe TNC have shown a pattern that they will make alliances with literally anyone and take on their howsoever wild policy proposals if they think it'll get them 1 more vote. Who knows, the utter shamelessness of trying to build a party behind formerly intransigent Republican activists AND the most hardcore Monarchists might win elections in the short term. But at what cost to the possibility of coherent government afterwards?
You say it very well: the problems with FDT government are so obvious that both ardent monarchists and ardent republicans have united around the ideals of activity and fun that our country so desperately needs.
All I can say is that I'm about 500% happier to defend the 57th Cosă government's record than the 56th Cosă. For example, we spent ages talking about the immigration crisis, and the good Baron spent so much bandwidth talking about how this was because of (unspecified) FreeDem failures. Now, given the massive tidal wave of immigration (17 new prospectives in the past week or two!), if he were politically honest, he'd be congratulating us. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79DijItQXMM)
But - just as the problems in the past weren't all due to FreeDem fecklessness or wickedness - our current rosy success isn't all to our credit. If I were the Minister of STUFF, I'd be peeved that el Partì dal Reformaziun isn't getting respect. The FreeDems have never had a majority government (got very close once) and have only led five governments, though we've participated in eight. Recent Talossan political history has had a much wider variety of characters and political tendencies through the Government than in the previous era of nine consecutive majority governments.
"Time for a change" is a powerful argument. All I argue is that "change" to a rat-tag group of forces whose common denominator seems to be personal resentment of one or two FreeDem members won't be an improvement. The TNC made the fatal error last time that anyone not in the FreeDems would despise the FreeDems as much as they did - and were blindsided when the current coalition was formed. I predict that - even if they are once again the biggest party, even if they do better than last time - they won't form Government unless they have a platform more positive than being the "No Miestrăs Club".
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on December 03, 2022, 07:07:28 PMhe'd be congratulating us. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79DijItQXMM)
In that song, Maui is an egomaniac working hard to distract someone so he can scam them. I'm not sure that's the comparison you want. I am very familiar with the song;
Moana is my favorite Disney movie and one of the favorite movies of my daughters. Do your kids like it, too?
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on December 03, 2022, 07:07:28 PMhave only led five governments, though we've participated in eight
Amazing fact: you personally have been in the Government for 99 months out of the last 108 months. Since 2014, you have been in the Cabinet or serving as Seneschal for an astonishing 92% of the time. That's most of eight years! Isn't that amazing?
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on December 03, 2022, 07:07:28 PM"Time for a change" is a powerful argument. All I argue is that "change" to a rat-tag group of forces
This is a really fun image -- I like the idea that we're a rag-tag band of scrappy underdogs going up against the entrenched power, like the browncoats in
Firefly. I hope that there's another new party that joins our coalition so we can get kind of a Rebel Alliance vibe going.
You know, I have not yet decided if I personally will be part of Cabinet next time (even if offered a job), or even if I'll take Cosa seats. If the TNC are planning on "get Miestră out of Government" as a selling point, they might be pushing at an open door.
I understand that I offer a much easier target than the incumbent and highly competent Seneschál, who has been out of Government as often as he's been in it - which may be another factor encouraging me to step aside. All I can say that I'll be supporting the FreeDem campaign led by him and Party President Somelieir, no matter if there's any post-election role for me.
If you want to talk Disney movies, let's do so elsewhere.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on December 03, 2022, 08:35:34 PMYou know, I have not yet decided if I personally will be part of Cabinet next time (even if offered a job), or even if I'll take Cosa seats. If the TNC are planning on "get Miestră out of Government" as a selling point, they might be pushing at an open door.
Your last retirement speech was almost two years ago, but I guess anything is possible.
Side note: now you have me looking at TV Tropes (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RagtagBunchOfMisfits), so when I get sucked in again to a two-hour wiki-walk, I'm blaming you. Trying to win this election might be hard, but it's just Crazy Enough to Work (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrazyEnoughToWork). We've had our Misfit Mobilization Moment (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MisfitMobilizationMoment), and we're going to do our best. Gambatte! (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/StockJapanesePhrases)
Well, of course, I had something in mind more like this
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 02, 2022, 02:42:28 PMQuote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on December 02, 2022, 01:13:37 PMGuess it's full circle for "Mad Max" Carbonel
I'm not sure that you're being respectful or kind to Mximo with the name-calling, here. Earlier in this term, we all pledged to try raising the level of political discourse by improving how we treat each other -- let's try to stick to that even as election season approaches, if we can.
Mximo's history of party-jumping and bandwagoning in Talossa is legendary, as his command of the English language.