Wittenberg

WHEREAS the Organic Law directs that each government submit a budget by the second Clark of their Cosa term,

PART A: Financial Report

The current funds of the Kingdom consist of a checking account, a savings account, and a Paypal account.  On report from the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue as of 30 March 2023, these accounts stand at the following balances:
•  Checking: 31¤4 ($46.60 USD)
•  Savings: 785¤40 ($1,178.50 USD)
•  Paypal: 183¤38 ($275.44 USD)
       Total: 1000¤22 ($1500.54 USD)

There was no previous Financial Report for the previous Cosa term, but on report from the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue, the following are the expenditures from the last budget which occurred between 21 May 2022 and 30 Mar 2023:
•  -40¤34 ($60.85 USD)    Webhosting costs
•  -18¤12 ($27.30 USD)    Webhosting costs
•  -35¤23 ($53.07 USD)    Google ads

Since the last legal Financial Report in February of 2020, on report from the Burgermeister of Inland Revue the following changes to account balances have occurred as of 30 Mar 2023:
•  Checking:+4¤49 ($7.23 USD)
•  Savings:+76¤38 ($114.96 USD)
•  Paypal:+139¤32 ($209.29 USD)

The amount of current coinage and stamps in circulation and in reserve is currently unknown.  This information will be provided in a supplemental report to the Ziu.

PART B: Budget

THEREFORE, His Majesty's Government hereby submits to the Ziu a request for the appropriation of funds from the Royal Treasury totaling 366¤40 ($550 USD) for the specific purposes and subject to restrictions as outlined herein:

Ministrà dal Cúltură

• Culture grants 66¤40 ($100 USD)

This amount will be set aside for fulfillment of any Culture Initiative Support Fund grants.  These grants are intended to help spur and reward activity from our citizens, providing them with small amounts to support language, journalism, or other cultural plans.  In previous years, most of this money has gone unspent.

Ministrà dal Tec'hnoloxhà

• Speculative Webhosting costs 133¤20 ($200 USD)

For obvious Wittpocalypse-related reasons, future plans for our web infrastructure remain uncertain.  As the Ministreu dal Tec'hnoloxhà explores different options in conjunction with Permanent Secretary da Schir, the Government is erring on the cautious side and appropriating sufficient funds to meet a variety of needs.  It is our expectation that only a small portion of this money will need to be spent.

Ministrà dels Afaes Utphätseschti

• BHAID 33¤20 ($50 USD)

The Bureau for Humanitarian Aid and International Development will continue its support for important causes worldwide.

Ministrà à Savanar da Talossa àls Ultra-Fiovaes Folăs

• Advertising 66¤40 ($100 USD)

These funds will accommodate a cost-effective and high-impact future advertising campaign.

• Stationary and Postage for IDs and Certificates 66¤40 ($100 USD)

Once state assets are recovered from private hands and the ID program can continue, the Government will employ this sum to print, laminate, and mail the results.  Awards and grants will also be printed on fine paper and mailed to recipients.

FURTHERMORE, notwithstanding the above allocations, no funds shall be disbursed without a notice of disbursement having first been transmitted to the Ziu at least fourteen days prior to the disbursement, except that disbursements solely for the purpose of postage may be made with no less than 24 hours notice. Notices shall contain details of the purchase and a cost estimate for the purchase, or the total amount paid if seeking funds for reimbursement. Copies of receipts and/or invoices will be provided upon request to Members of the Ziu.

FURTHERMORE, any funds allocated by this section shall be retained in the central fund by the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue until such time as they are disbursed. Funds not disbursed prior to the end of the government term shall remain in the central fund.


PART C: Investment Policy

FURTHERMORE, His Majesty's Government hereby directs the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue to invest all held funds into a high-interest savings account unless or until otherwise directed or advised by act of the Ziu.


PART D: Coinage and Postage

FURTHERMORE, His Majesty's Government has no plans to coin monies or print postage during this term, as supplies remain sufficient to sustain both markets.


PART E: Donations Target

FURTHERMORE, His Majesty's Government proposes a voluntary fundraising goal of $200 over the course of this term.


PART F: Designated Assassination Targets

<REDACTED>


Uréu q'estadra så
His Majesty's Government, represented by Ministreu dal Finançù Alexandreu Davinescu

Debate on the Budget and Financial Planning Bill are more on the policy rather than the text in itself, so I hope Ministreux will indulge me if I reply in a TERP-style.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 04, 2023, 01:12:01 PM
PART A: Financial Report

TBD:
2.8.1.2.1. the amount, location, liquidity, and availability of all funds held by or for the Royal Treasury,
2.8.1.2.2. a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the last Report,
2.8.1.2.3. a balance sheet which clearly lists all expenses linking them to the relative sheet items in the budget bills approved in the Cosa,
2.8.1.2.4. the total amount of louise and postal items in circulation.

BTW: It doesn't change anything because I believe it is only a placeholder, but the relevant subsections in the Lexhatx are § C.1.5.6 (or § D.2.8.3.1).

Quote
PART B: Budget

THEREFORE, His Majesty's Government hereby submits to the Ziu a request for the appropriation of funds from the Royal Treasury totaling ℓ400 ($600 USD) for the specific purposes and subject to restrictions as outlined herein:

Ministrà dal Cúltură

• Culture grants 66¤40 ($100 USD)

This amount will be set aside for fulfillment of any Culture Initiative Support Fund grants.  These grants are intended to help spur and reward activity from our citizens, providing them with small amounts to support language, journalism, or other cultural plans.

Ministrà dal Tec'hnoloxhà

• Speculative Webhosting costs 133¤20 ($200 USD)

For obvious Wittpocalypse-related reasons, future plans for our web infrastructure remain uncertain.  As the Ministreu dal Tec'hnoloxhà explores different options in conjunction with Permanent Secretary da Schir, the Government is erring on the cautious side and appropriating sufficient funds to meet a variety of needs.

Can the Ministreu specify whether the 133¤20 ($200 USD) are in addition to or they include the ℓ60 ($90 USD) authorized by Lexhatx § D.2.8.4.1?

If they are in addition, I think 193¤20 ($290 USD) is quite a large sum to appropriate. Shouldn't be better to lower it and appropriate new funds if needed with a supplemental budgeting legislation when the Report by the Ministreu dal Tec'hnoloxhà announced by the Seneschal on discord will be submitted to the Ziu?

Otherwise, if it inludes the ℓ60, it should be clearly highlighted in the text: 73¤20 ($110 USD) in addition to the funds authorized by Lexhatx § D.2.8.4.1.

QuoteMinistrà dels Afaes Utphätseschti

• BHAID 66¤40 ($100 USD)

The Bureau for Humanitarian Aid and International Development will continue its support for important causes worldwide.

I'm not a priori against the idea of appropriating funds from the Treasury to BHAID but I'm not comfortable with the idea to appropriate 100$ (which is a relative large sum for our Treasury) as a white cheque for donation without including in the law (withouth the possibility of being able to agree (or not) to whom or to which cause they will be donated. My doubts are on the principle itself, so the spending authority removal of the Cosă in § D.2.8.7 doesn't answer them. I'd prefer we stick to ad hoc legislation like RZ2.

Before the second data loss, the Ministreu dal Finançù informed us that the Ministreu dels Afaes Utphätseschti already has some plans, can the Ministreu @Bråneu Excelsio share with the Ziu some details of it?

QuoteMinistrà à Savanar da Talossa àls Ultra-Fiovaes Folăs

• Advertising 66¤40 ($100 USD)

These funds will accommodate a cost-effective and high-impact future advertising campaigns.

I already received some information on this before the data loss, and I know we are at an early stage, but I'd like to hear more on what the Ministreu @Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat is planning.

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 08, 2023, 05:49:00 PM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 04, 2023, 01:12:01 PM
PART A: Financial Report

TBD:
2.8.1.2.1. the amount, location, liquidity, and availability of all funds held by or for the Royal Treasury,
2.8.1.2.2. a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the last Report,
2.8.1.2.3. a balance sheet which clearly lists all expenses linking them to the relative sheet items in the budget bills approved in the Cosa,
2.8.1.2.4. the total amount of louise and postal items in circulation.

BTW: It doesn't change anything because I believe it is only a placeholder, but the relevant subsections in the Lexhatx are § C.1.5.6 (or § D.2.8.3.1).

D.2.8.3.1 refers to the requirements for this bill as a whole, which are already addressed in its text. The sections I reference above are the requirements for the financial report (i.e. the needs for this particular section).

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 08, 2023, 05:49:00 PMCan the Ministreu specify whether the 133¤20 ($200 USD) are in addition to or they include the ℓ60 ($90 USD) authorized by Lexhatx § D.2.8.4.1?

If they are in addition, I think 193¤20 ($290 USD) is quite a large sum to appropriate. Shouldn't be better to lower it and appropriate new funds if needed with a supplemental budgeting legislation when the Report by the Ministreu dal Tec'hnoloxhà announced by the Seneschal on discord will be submitted to the Ziu?

Otherwise, if it inludes the ℓ60, it should be clearly highlighted in the text: 73¤20 ($110 USD) in addition to the funds authorized by Lexhatx § D.2.8.4.1.

These are in addition, and we expect to spend much less than that.  However, given the numerous difficulties we've been having, and the prospect of the unknown, we want to err on the side of caution in terms of our flexibility.  We have no intention of spending money recklessly, and indeed I'd love to reduce this number down to a handful of louise.  But at this point it would be penny-wise and pound-foolish not to prepare for an eventuality where we need to quickly contract with another server.

So again, to be clear: these appropriated funds will not be spent if that can be managed at all.

QuoteMinistrà dels Afaes Utphätseschti

• BHAID 66¤40 ($100 USD)

The Bureau for Humanitarian Aid and International Development will continue its support for important causes worldwide.

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 08, 2023, 05:49:00 PMI'm not a priori against the idea of appropriating funds from the Treasury to BHAID but I'm not comfortable with the idea to appropriate 100$ (which is a relative large sum for our Treasury) as a white cheque for donation without including in the law (withouth the possibility of being able to agree (or not) to whom or to which cause they will be donated. My doubts are on the principle itself, so the spending authority removal of the Cosă in § D.2.8.7 doesn't answer them. I'd prefer we stick to ad hoc legislation like RZ2.

The Cosa may vote to deny any disbursement requests with a simple one-third vote.

This sum represents the amount we believe might be worthwhile spending this term, depending on fundraising, and that is the purpose of a budget.

While individual appropriations have their place, they also require much more time, and that can be a problem when it comes to such causes as disaster relief.  An individual appropriations bill requires time in the Hopper, approval by the CRL, and the full voting time in the Clark.  A dollar the first week is worth ten a month later.

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 08, 2023, 05:49:00 PM

QuoteMinistrà à Savanar da Talossa àls Ultra-Fiovaes Folăs

• Advertising 66¤40 ($100 USD)

These funds will accommodate a cost-effective and high-impact future advertising campaigns.

I already received some information on this before the data loss, and I know we are at an early stage, but I'd like to hear more on what the Ministreu @Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat is planning.

As mentioned, I said that we have not even begun exploring options seriously, yet, but that we are obligated to specify an amount for a future advertising campaign now, at the start of the term.  We will present those options for public comment, and then any decision, well prior to any expenditures.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 08, 2023, 08:58:12 PMD.2.8.3.1 refers to the requirements for this bill as a whole, which are already addressed in its text. The sections I reference above are the requirements for the financial report (i.e. the needs for this particular section).

No they are not. They were moved to subsections of § C.1.5.6 by 57RZ22.

Quote

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 08, 2023, 05:49:00 PMCan the Ministreu specify whether the 133¤20 ($200 USD) are in addition to or they include the ℓ60 ($90 USD) authorized by Lexhatx § D.2.8.4.1?

If they are in addition, I think 193¤20 ($290 USD) is quite a large sum to appropriate. Shouldn't be better to lower it and appropriate new funds if needed with a supplemental budgeting legislation when the Report by the Ministreu dal Tec'hnoloxhà announced by the Seneschal on discord will be submitted to the Ziu?

Otherwise, if it inludes the ℓ60, it should be clearly highlighted in the text: 73¤20 ($110 USD) in addition to the funds authorized by Lexhatx § D.2.8.4.1.

These are in addition, and we expect to spend much less than that.  However, given the numerous difficulties we've been having, and the prospect of the unknown, we want to err on the side of caution in terms of our flexibility.  We have no intention of spending money recklessly, and indeed I'd love to reduce this number down to a handful of louise.  But at this point it would be penny-wise and pound-foolish not to prepare for an eventuality where we need to quickly contract with another server.

I really do hope that you have no intention of spending money recklessly  ;D

QuoteSo again, to be clear: these appropriated funds will not be spent if that can be managed at all.

I can assure you that I'm familiar with how a budget works.  ;)

Quote

QuoteMinistrà dels Afaes Utphätseschti

• BHAID 66¤40 ($100 USD)

The Bureau for Humanitarian Aid and International Development will continue its support for important causes worldwide.

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 08, 2023, 05:49:00 PMI'm not a priori against the idea of appropriating funds from the Treasury to BHAID but I'm not comfortable with the idea to appropriate 100$ (which is a relative large sum for our Treasury) as a white cheque for donation without including in the law (withouth the possibility of being able to agree (or not) to whom or to which cause they will be donated. My doubts are on the principle itself, so the spending authority removal of the Cosă in § D.2.8.7 doesn't answer them. I'd prefer we stick to ad hoc legislation like RZ2.

The Cosa may vote to deny any disbursement requests with a simple one-third vote.

Yes I know, that's the spending authority removal of the Cosă in Lexh. § D.2.8.7 I mentioned above.

QuoteThis sum represents the amount we believe might be worthwhile spending this term, depending on fundraising, and that is the purpose of a budget.

The BHAID, as it is currently written into the Law, has a quite peculiar position in the Budget (I'm drafting some bills to adress the matter). Regarding the BHAID the purpose of the budget is not the amount you are planning to spend, rather the amount you are planning to appropriate to BHAID from the Treasury (and yes, I know the difference between appropriate and spend). The fundraising goal included in the budget ($200 USD) is limited to Lexh. § D.2.8.8 and doesn't include the donations to BHAID ex Lexh. § D.2.6.6.2.

QuoteWhile individual appropriations have their place, they also require much more time, and that can be a problem when it comes to such causes as disaster relief.  An individual appropriations bill requires time in the Hopper, approval by the CRL, and the full voting time in the Clark. 

A dollar the first week is worth ten a month later.

Just to be clear: a dollar in the third week at least, not the first week.

I don't personally like the idea to appopriate such a large part of our Treasury to donations without knowing the receiver beforehand. However, as I said before, you mentioned that the Foreign Affairs Ministry is working on something, I'd like to know a little more on that.

Quote

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 08, 2023, 05:49:00 PM

QuoteMinistrà à Savanar da Talossa àls Ultra-Fiovaes Folăs

• Advertising 66¤40 ($100 USD)

These funds will accommodate a cost-effective and high-impact future advertising campaigns.

I already received some information on this before the data loss, and I know we are at an early stage, but I'd like to hear more on what the Ministreu @Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat is planning.

As mentioned, I said that we have not even begun exploring options seriously, yet, but that we are obligated to specify an amount for a future advertising campaign now, at the start of the term.  We will present those options for public comment, and then any decision, well prior to any expenditures.

I am sure you will. I wasn't asking for the full plan of course, just to know a little more of the ideas that are being considered by the Ministry than "a cost-effective and high-impact future advertising campaigns": I think it is due to the Ziu since you are asking to appropriate the funds.

I am more than happy to place formal Terpelaziuns to the Foreign Affaris and STUFF Ministers if I need to do that.

I have to say how much I appreciate the general energy and the particular demeanor of both yourself and Dama Miestra with your comprehensive efforts; I think that it is quite helpful to the whole country for a number of reasons. It seems that we do have perhaps some philosophical conflict about the nature of the budget itself, as well as about specific items of note, but I am glad of the exchange.

As I mentioned a couple of times, we do not have specifics about the advertising campaign or BHAID recipients, beyond intentions to conduct such a campaign should we become able to find a good approach that would be cost-effective and high-impact and intentions to find worthy recipients of Talossan largesse that will be similarly cost-effective and high-impact.  The law requires that we submit a budget in time for the second Clark, but researching different options will be explored later in the term.  You may certainly pose terpelaziuns as you feel might be helpful, but I suspect the answers will be the same, having discussed it with the Ministreu already.

Thank you, either way.  The TNC was swept into office by the first outright majority in a decade, and I think a big part of that has been our can-do attitude and cheerful inclusionism, and we are very happy to get to work soon on implementing some of our proposals -- once we get past the crises into which we were thrown in our first week!

Please let me know if you have any further questions, or if there's anything else I can help with.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 09, 2023, 10:05:41 AMI have to say how much I appreciate the general energy and the particular demeanor of both yourself and Dama Miestra with your comprehensive efforts; I think that it is quite helpful to the whole country for a number of reasons.

I'm glad that you appreciate the energy, the demeanor and the efforts. Itm

QuoteIt seems that we do have perhaps some philosophical conflict about the nature of the budget itself,

It's the first time I'm told that there could be a philosophical conflict about the nature itself of budget. Technical yeah, political many many times. But never philosophical on the nature!  :D

QuoteThe law requires that we submit a budget in time for the second Clark,

Yes, that is the law.

Quotebut researching different options will be explored later in the term.

And I'm sure you will, I was asking not to know the plan that will be put in place, but rather the general idea on the options that will be explored. Digital advertising? Yes no, maybe? Continuing Google ads? Yes no why?Old-style advertising? What? Where? Addressed to whom? I'm sure the Government has some ideas where to start to explore different options: that is what I'm asking. Nothing long or detailed, just the general ideas that are/will be considered as the starting point.

QuoteYou may certainly pose terpelaziuns as you feel might be helpful, but I suspect the answers will be the same, having discussed it with the Ministreu already.

Thank you, I appreciate your efforts, but I'd like to hear directly from them on this particular matter if it is possible.

QuoteThank you, either way.  The TNC was swept into office by the first outright majority in a decade, and I think a big part of that has been our can-do attitude and cheerful inclusionism, and we are very happy to get to work soon on implementing some of our proposals -- once we get past the crises into which we were thrown in our first week!

And I'm sure you will be happy to work soon in implementing your proposal! That's the job of the Government. My job is - also - to scrutinise your work. :)

QuotePlease let me know if you have any further questions, or if there's anything else I can help with.

Yes, I'm truly (it's a genuine question) curious to understand which you think are the different perspectives on the philosophical conflict over the nature of the budget.

More broadly to all:

I have updated the bill to reflect information from the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue.  At this time, the Burgermeister has not yet gained access to the Kingdom's Paypal.  It seems as though his predecessor also did not have access to this account.  Similarly, we have very incomplete information about the situation with coins and stamps.

Resolving this issue is one of my top priorities, but it does not appear likely that the matter will be remedied before this bill is submitted.   More information will be provided as it becomes available, but the financial report will be incomplete.

EDIT: Txec says (below) that he did have access, but it was just quite hard to make happen.

May I correct one statement? I do/did have access to PayPal. It took some effort and the new Burgermeister is having similar difficulties. The former Burgermeister told me he would continue handling stamps until a permanent BIR was selected. Our current PayPal balance is $267.93. I transferred  $200 to the kingdoms bank account in December as I felt at the time it was unwise to keep a large balance. More money has since come in as parties and Senators paid their fees as well as at least one donation.

We do have access to PayPal. Our issue is transferring it.

Thank you!  Excellent, we might be able to get this set more quickly than I'd hoped, excellent!  I will update with that information.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 13, 2023, 08:02:55 AMThank you!  Excellent, we might be able to get this set more quickly than I'd hoped, excellent!  I will update with that information.

Perhaps verifying facts before posting is advised? Our funds have always been safe. The issue has been bank and website security, not the control of and access to our funds.

I wasn't worried about their safety, but it was worrying that we'd had uncertain access in the past and now.  I'm glad it wasn't an insuperable issue, and that it should be resolved again soon.  I am justly reprimanded!  Edited my post with a note reflecting your correction.  Thanks again!

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 13, 2023, 08:07:37 AMI wasn't worried about their safety, but it was worrying that we'd had uncertain access in the past and now.  I'm glad it wasn't an insuperable issue, and that it should be resolved again soon.  I am justly reprimanded!

PayPal security is no joke!

That's probably a good thing, on balance.  So then our main worries right now are the logistics behind account ownership and our physical assets.  Probably something to discuss with you and our new Burgermeister, when we have a chance.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 04, 2023, 01:12:01 PMPART A: Financial Report

The current funds of the Kingdom consist of a checking account, a savings account, and a Paypal account.  On report from the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue, these accounts stand at the following balances:
Checking: $1,178.50
Savings: $46.60
Paypal: $267.93
Total: $1493.03

To be clear: those are the balances right now?

Correct me If I'm wrong:  I understand that the difficulties are only in transferring "ownership" of the PayPal account, and not in acessing it. And that is understandable. However I must stress that that report is falling below the requirements of the law, and as the newly appointed BIR has access to the accounts, the Report should be made in compliance with the law.

Yes, these are the current balances.  The current Burgermeister does not yet have access to Paypal, although we hope that this will be remedied soon.  Is there some particular information you'd like me to add, to which you are referring?

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 13, 2023, 11:25:32 AMIs there some particular information you'd like me to add, to which you are referring?

Lexh § C.1.5.6.2. (a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the last Report,) and § C.1.5.6.3. (a balance sheet which clearly lists all expenses linking them to the relative sheet items in the budget bills approved in the Cosa,)


Regarding Lexh § C.1.5.6.4. (the total amount of louise and postal items in circulation;) I understand that there are some difficulties because they are kept by the former former BIR, I hope that it could be resolved in due time.

Yes, I will provide that information as soon as it is possible.

Would there be objection if we lodged a significant portion of our funds into something with a higher yield but which still doesn't represent significant speculation?  I was thinking here in terms of a bank certificate of deposit with a six-month term.

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 13, 2023, 01:24:03 PMLexh § C.1.5.6.2. (a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the last Report,) and § C.1.5.6.3. (a balance sheet which clearly lists all expenses linking them to the relative sheet items in the budget bills approved in the Cosa,)

A balance sheet lists assets and liabilities at a specific time, not income and expense over time (That is what an income statement does) If C.1.5.6.3 is really phrased that way, it should probably be fixed.

</Accounting pedantry >

Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on March 17, 2023, 11:03:06 AM

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 13, 2023, 01:24:03 PMLexh § C.1.5.6.2. (a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the last Report,) and § C.1.5.6.3. (a balance sheet which clearly lists all expenses linking them to the relative sheet items in the budget bills approved in the Cosa,)

A balance sheet lists assets and liabilities at a specific time, not income and expense over time (That is what an income statement does) If C.1.5.6.3 is really phrased that way, it should probably be fixed.

</Accounting pedantry >

Revision submitted to Hopper. https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=2240.msg18370#msg18370

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 17, 2023, 08:30:47 AMWould there be objection if we lodged a significant portion of our funds into something with a higher yield but which still doesn't represent significant speculation?  I was thinking here in terms of a bank certificate of deposit with a six-month term.

Depends: you have to provide the details of such an investment.

Well, I just gave you most of the major information about the idea. What further details do you want? I don't have a specific interest rate, but it's going to be higher than a savings account.

I actually looked into doing that a couple years ago. I decided it wasn't worth the tax headache it would cause the Burgermeister.

Remember the treasury is technically held by an individual, which means he or she might have tax liabilities.

That makes sense. We're actually exploring the idea of getting an EIN or registering a 501c3, though. The new burgermeister volunteered and the Seneschal directed us to explore the idea.

@xpb , do you want to tell them what you told me about those possibilities?

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 18, 2023, 07:33:00 AMThat makes sense. We're actually exploring the idea of getting an EIN or registering a 501c3, though. The new burgermeister volunteered and the Seneschal directed us to explore the idea.

@xpb , do you want to tell them what you told me about those possibilities?

Wasn't this already explored in the past?

Quoteand the Seneschal directed us to explore the idea.

When?

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 18, 2023, 07:41:16 AM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 18, 2023, 07:33:00 AMThat makes sense. We're actually exploring the idea of getting an EIN or registering a 501c3, though. The new burgermeister volunteered and the Seneschal directed us to explore the idea.

@xpb , do you want to tell them what you told me about those possibilities?

Wasn't this already explored in the past?

Quoteand the Seneschal directed us to explore the idea.

When?

A few days ago.

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 18, 2023, 07:41:16 AM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 18, 2023, 07:33:00 AMThat makes sense. We're actually exploring the idea of getting an EIN or registering a 501c3, though. The new burgermeister volunteered and the Seneschal directed us to explore the idea.

@xpb , do you want to tell them what you told me about those possibilities?

Wasn't this already explored in the past?

Quoteand the Seneschal directed us to explore the idea.

When?

I sit on the board of the a Community Foundation.  I manage a scholarship fund there honoring my father and grandfather, as well an Intellectual Competition Fund.  Both instances have funds on deposit that are a permanent endowment that generate income, as well as a current distribution account. 

Accounts there need to have a educational purpose, and Talossa could be proposed as a fund - as a long running virtual nation where there are political and administrative activities that provide a learning experience.  All accounts are overseen by a board, which I also sit upon, however there are many accounts that have their various managers that do not sit on the board and just operate under the organizational umbrella.  There is professional management of the portfolio, and there is a controller and accountant overseeing disbursements as well as tax filings.  The current president of the board is a lawyer.

There may also be similar entities within the Greater Talossan Ares with a similar scope and purpose - is anyone there involved with such an organization?

In some fashion, I believe it would be much better for the treasury not to be attached to any individual.

X Pol Briga
Burgermeister of Inland Revenue

If this is a roundabout way of creating an actual Talossan legal entity which can own investments/intellectual property, this is something I've wanted to see for ages but it always ended up in the "too hard" basket.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on March 18, 2023, 03:21:33 PMIf this is a roundabout way of creating an actual Talossan legal entity which can own investments/intellectual property, this is something I've wanted to see for ages but it always ended up in the "too hard" basket.

Not sure about the IP for "Talossa" - I do know an IP lawyer.  My estimate to setup a TM for Talossa would be around $2000, with the https://www.uspto.gov/ but I would happily contribute $500 to that end.  Likely would need to create a 501cX as well as a holding unless it was held by some existing 501cX.  501c3 are charitable and have tax deductibility but are more challenging to establish.  Something like a 503c8 may apply https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/other-non-profits/fraternal-societies

Word Mark   TALOSSA
Goods and Services   (CANCELLED) IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: Entertainment services, namely, providing historical, cultural and political information about an organization in the nature of a fictional nation. FIRST USE: 19791226. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19850701
Standard Characters Claimed   
Mark Drawing Code   (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number   78401395
Filing Date   April 14, 2004
Current Basis   1A
Original Filing Basis   1B
Published for Opposition   March 1, 2005
Registration Number   2955054
Registration Date   May 24, 2005
Owner   (REGISTRANT) Madison, Robert B. INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 8631 North Servite Drive Unit 118 Milwaukee WISCONSIN 53223
Type of Mark   SERVICE MARK
Register   PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator   DEAD
Cancellation Date   January 24, 2013

You can get an EIN for free, that's what you need to open a bank account in the organization's name.

I really don't think spending $2,000 on establishing a 401cX is worth it

Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on March 19, 2023, 12:30:29 PMYou can get an EIN for free, that's what you need to open a bank account in the organization's name.

I really don't think spending $2,000 on establishing a 401cX is worth it

However then it needs to incorporate unless it is a LLC or Subchapter S which leads back to some individual being responsible.  If incorporated, it makes sends to be a 501c8 (not 3 that has higher thresholds to cross).  The cost I am referencing is for the Trademark (TM) work, the corporation would be less expensive.  If not pursuing TM then it also could just be a fund within an existing 501cX structure.

Well that escalated pretty quickly... A $600 USD budget was under scrutiny and now I read figures even higher than the Treasury total!

Although this debate took place in the Budget thread, may I ask the Minister to confirm that this Bill will not be amended in any way to reflect this?

I do not understand much of what has been said insofar as reference is made to US legislation on the subject of which I know nothing. I would suggest moving this discussion to another thread.

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on March 18, 2023, 09:01:48 AM

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 18, 2023, 07:41:16 AM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 18, 2023, 07:33:00 AMThat makes sense. We're actually exploring the idea of getting an EIN or registering a 501c3, though. The new burgermeister volunteered and the Seneschal directed us to explore the idea.

@xpb , do you want to tell them what you told me about those possibilities?

Wasn't this already explored in the past?

Quoteand the Seneschal directed us to explore the idea.

When?

A few days ago.

I'm a little concerned about this.

I hope that the government will, should this study have any follow up, which I think should be in the form of a 'White Paper', engage in a broad debate with citizens on this issue before even contemplating its transformation into a government proposal.

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 20, 2023, 02:32:34 PMWell that escalated pretty quickly... A $600 USD budget was under scrutiny and now I read figures even higher than the Treasury total!

Although this debate took place in the Budget thread, may I ask the Minister to confirm that this Bill will not be amended in any way to reflect this?

I certainly do not intend to make any unannounced edits to the bill. As I have been doing, I will continue to make it known if there are any significant changes.

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 20, 2023, 02:32:34 PMI hope that the government will, should this study have any follow up, which I think should be in the form of a 'White Paper', engage in a broad debate with citizens on this issue before even contemplating its transformation into a government proposal.

I'm not sure we can commit to any specific form. This goal is a bipartisan one, pursued by previous administrations in the past and only undone, I believe, because it was logistically difficult and perhaps not practical.

That said, I can't imagine we would do anything but continue to be transparent and seek feedback, just as we have been doing.

Previous governments only suggested declaring a Registered Agent under Wisconsin law (https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=501.0), which would have cost less than $US100.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on March 20, 2023, 03:48:25 PMPrevious governments only suggested declaring a Registered Agent under Wisconsin law (https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=501.0), which would have cost less than $US100.

A registered agent is an appropriate idea.  That typically requires a corporate structure to be a registered agent for.  An EIN is indeed free, but requires a corporate structure to be assigned to.

The larger amounts being proposed were to claw back the previous registered trademark of Talossa, which has lain dormant since 2013.  Smaller amounts would be needed to incorporate (perhaps a couple hundred) but would need agreement as to structure.  The renewal would be $20 per year to file an annual report.

The entire purpose would be to remove individuals from banking or other accounts, and have officers of a corporation elected from time to time to oversee those accounts as part of operations.

Added to the bill:
"There was no financial report filed during the 57th Cosa, as confirmed with the Seneschal and Ministreu dal Finançù, of that term, and accordingly it will not be possible to provide a list of transactions.

The amount of current coinage and stamps in circulation and in reserve is currently unknown.  This information will be provided in a supplemental report to the Ziu."

I feel confident at this point that there is no existing previous financial report filed by the Government, and it's not any sort of oversight or just misplaced, having gotten word to that effect from the preceding administration.  For reasons out of our control, we have also not been able to obtain coin & stamps info.  In the interests of not embarrassing anyone, let me simply assure the Ziu that this information will be provided in a supplemental report at a later date.

The Financial Report of the previous budget (which would have been on the 56th cosa). is nor a requisite for this Report: the Burgemeister doesn't need that to provide a list of transactions from the Kingdom account balances, and to link them to the appropriation part in the budget.

Quote1.5.6.2. a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the last Report,

We can easily read that part as:

a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the 57th Budget.

Quote1.5.6.3. a balance sheet which clearly lists all expenses linking them to the relative sheet items in the budget bills approved in the Cosa,

Again no need here for the financial report, just the previous budget and the account balances.

The 53rd and 54th Budgets had a different wording of the law, but the essential part is the same.

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 20, 2023, 10:06:26 PMThe Financial Report of the previous budget (which would have been on the 56th cosa). is nor a requisite for this Report: the Burgemeister doesn't need that to provide a list of transactions from the Kingdom account balances, and to link them to the appropriation part in the budget.

Quote1.5.6.2. a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the last Report,

We can easily read that part as:

a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the 57th Budget.

Well, I'm not sure it's valid to change the words to different ones, and then note that they would then mean something different. The law explicitly asks for changes since the last financial report, not the last budget.  But even if we did, no account balances were provided in the 57th budget.  And transactions have yet been confirmed, since no disbursement notices were filed.  I agree that this is a problem, and that the financial report and disbursement notices were legally required, but it's already been publicly discussed and I think it would be kinder not to drag this out.  Everyone makes mistakes, and there were extenuating circumstances.

þon. Ministreu,
don't try to deflect the argument: we're talking about producing this Report for this Budget. I wasn't MC during the last Budget, I am MC for this Budget and it is my job as member of HM Loyal Opposition to scrutinise your work, while ensuring that the Financial Report is duly attached to this Budget is your job as Ministreu dal Finançù.

The spirit of the law is clear: the purpose of the Report is to be the final balance of the previous term, and to present the list of operations that were carried out during the previous Cosa, with in addition an indication, in the case of expenditures, of the Budget item that appropriated the money (in order to clarify how much money authorized was actually spent). When I said to read "since the last Report" as "since the last Budget" I didn't say to change the law but to consider that statement correctly as the terminus a quo the law is referring to here, since the Report must be submitted together with the Budget, to include information on the Financial Report.

The law gives an obvious temporal indication rather than being prescriptive. To cling to a literal "since the last report" instead of a temporal indication as an impossibility to make the Report "you need this to do that", is to play with the law. The law doesn't say that you can't have a Report if none was delivered in the last term.

But even if it were as you claim, certainly for Lexh.C.1.5.6.3. there is not even that indication "since the last Report": therefore it cannot be an excuse.

Producing the Financial Report (excluding the part on stamps and coins for the reasons we all know and we all hope to resolve soon) is very simple: it only needs access to the banking and PayPal account statements, create a table with the data for the last term and simply add for the expenses the reference to the funds appopriated in the budget approved in the last Cosa.

There is no need to bring up the previous Government because it has nothing to do with this.

The question is: Does the Burgermeister have access to the accounts? If the answer is "yes", than that alone is enough to produce the Report.

If you need the budget for last Cosa (for Lexh.C.1.5.6.3) I can provide to you the link (https://wiki.talossa.com/Law:57RZ5_The_57th_Cosa_Budget). I can also provide to you the receipt for one of the disbursement (https://wiki.talossa.com/Law:57PD6_National_Gimme_Shelter_Day) duly authorised by the Cosa: just follow the link to Witt on that page. That expense is the one appropriated on Part A section FINANCE of the Budget.

(I'd also argue that the PD in question can be interpeted as a "Notice of disbursment" in compliance with the 14-days required by 57RZ5 as it was issued by the Seneschal on the 23rd of July and the disbursment - the donation - was made 68 days later on the 29th of September. BTW: nowithstanding the lack of countersignature by the King, the disbursement was already authorised by 57RZ5 in compliance with Lexh.D.2.8.5, so the King assent wasn't needed per Lexh.D.2.8.6. The King as far as I can tell failed to countersign not 1 but 7 PDs in the last term, all the "observance days" PDs: 57PD3 57PD4 57PD5 57PD6 57PD7 57PD8 57PD9.)

:)

I'm sorry, but I think we disagree on this.  There was no financial report, and the law states that I should list changes in account balance since the last report.  The financial report and the budget are not the same thing, even though they're delivered at the same time, and the former wasn't done.  And I cannot yet discern which expenditures were linked to which budget lines from the last budget, since no disbursement notices were filed.  It is true that money was authorized to be spent, but notice was never given when it was actually disbursed.

I intend to provide all of this information once I can be quite sure that I can verify that information and those links to the best of my ability, but that is not yet possible.  I'm not prepared to formally certify to the Ziu that everything was appropriated and disbursed as it should be, and I'm not going to make a false representation to that effect.

To make things more clear, I am going to separate the financial bill and the budget.  So this bill will just be the budget bill, and the financial report will be put in a separate report to the Ziu.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 21, 2023, 08:31:32 AMAnd I cannot yet discern which expenditures were linked to which budget lines from the last budget, since no disbursement notices were filed.  It is true that money was authorized to be spent, but notice was never given when it was actually disbursed.

It is not your job. It's the Burgermeister's.

Lexh.C.1.5:

Quote1.5. The Royal Treasury, headed by the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue. The function of the treasury is to:
1.5.1. collect all revenues due to the King,
1.5.2. maintain and report to the Finance Minister and the Government on the fiduciary health of the Kingdom, at least once in every two calendar months and whenever else requested
1.5.3. disburse from the treasury all funds legitimately appropriated by the Ziu,
1.5.4. keep a record of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury.
1.5.5. audit the reported financial condition of His Majesty's investments at any time.
1.5.6. provide, upon request of the Minister of Finance and any other time stated in law, a Financial Report containing the following information:
1.5.6.1. the amount, location, liquidity, and availability of all funds held by or for the Royal Treasury,
1.5.6.2. a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the last Report,
1.5.6.3. a balance sheet which clearly lists all expenses linking them to the relative sheet items in the budget bills approved in the Cosa,
1.5.6.4. the total amount of louise and postal items in circulation;[104]

Again

QuoteI'm not prepared to formally certify to the Ziu that everything was appropriated and disbursed as it should be, and I'm not going to make a false representation to that effect.

That is not your job, but the Burgermeister's.

The question is simple as that. It is sufficient for the Burgermeister to have bank and paypal statements from, say, 1 July 2022 to 1 March 2023. And preparing the Financial Report is quite simple.

I do some balance statements every year even with totals of 5 zeros, I volunteer to prepare the Financial Report myself, I only need the balance statements.

I am the Ministreu dal Finançù, and the Burgermeister is my direct report.  If I am directed by the law to provide information to the Ziu, incorporating a report from a civil servant under my legal direction, then I am not going to provide that information until we can be sure it is accurate and can be verifiably linked to past expenditures as required by the law.  I am sure your enthusiasm would extend to holding me accountable for what I present to the Ziu, after all.

I asked the preceding Burgermeister for past information to fill in some of these holes, and he indicated to me he would prefer I ask his successor.  I think that is eminently reasonable since he was already doing quite the hardest job in the country.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 21, 2023, 10:08:46 AMI am the Ministreu dal Finançù, and the Burgermeister is my direct report.  If I am directed by the law to provide information to the Ziu, incorporating a report from a civil servant under my legal direction,

The Burgermeister is not under your legal direction. He is responsible to you, but it is not under your legal direction except as required by law.

Lexh.C.2

QuoteWith the exception of the Secretary of State and the Permanent Secretaries, every Office of the Royal Civil Service shall be assigned to a responsible Minister of the Government as named below, to report and consult concerning the conduct of their office as and when requested, necessary or useful. Officers are not subject to the direction of their responsible Minister except as required by Organic and statutory law. The Scribe of Abbavilla shall be responsible to the Attorney-General, the Royal Archivist to the Minister of Immigration, the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue to the Minister of Finance, and the President of the Royal Society and the Poet Laureate to the Minister of Culture.

And, as I quoted above, his duties are:

Lexh.C.1.5

Quote1.5. The Royal Treasury, headed by the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue. The function of the treasury is to:
1.5.1. collect all revenues due to the King,
1.5.2. maintain and report to the Finance Minister and the Government on the fiduciary health of the Kingdom, at least once in every two calendar months and whenever else requested
1.5.3. disburse from the treasury all funds legitimately appropriated by the Ziu,
1.5.4. keep a record of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury.
1.5.5. audit the reported financial condition of His Majesty's investments at any time.
1.5.6. provide, upon request of the Minister of Finance and any other time stated in law, a Financial Report containing the following information:
1.5.6.1. the amount, location, liquidity, and availability of all funds held by or for the Royal Treasury,
1.5.6.2. a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the last Report,
1.5.6.3. a balance sheet which clearly lists all expenses linking them to the relative sheet items in the budget bills approved in the Cosa,
1.5.6.4. the total amount of louise and postal items in circulation;
1.5.7. All accounts and other monies held by the Royal Treasury shall be held in the name of both the King and the Burgermeister, in such a way that the King shall be able to perform the functions of the Burgermeister in case of the Burgermeister's absence, on his own initiative or upon request of the Minister of Finance.

Morevoer,

QuoteI am sure your enthusiasm would extend to holding me accountable for what I present to the Ziu, after all.

For what is your responsability, yes.

QuoteI asked the preceding Burgermeister for past information to fill in some of these holes, and he indicated to me he would prefer I ask his successor.  I think that is eminently reasonable since he was already doing quite the hardest job in the country.

Probably because you dismissed him without asking him before?

By the way:

Lexh.C.3

Quote3. The Officers of the Royal Civil Service shall have no fixed terms of office and shall not be removed from office by the dissolution of the Cosa.
3.1 The Secretary of State is appointed by the King on the recommendation of the Seneschál, and removed by the King on the recommendation of any two of the Seneschál, the Túischac'h or the Mençei for professional misconduct, inability to perform their duties due to incapacitation or failure to perform their required duties.[106]
3.2 The other Officers of the Royal Civil Service are appointed by the King on the recommendation of the responsible Minister, and removed by the King on the recommendation of the responsible minister for professional misconduct, inability to perform their duties due to incapacitation or failure to perform their required duties.

I wonder if the previous Burgermeister was dissmed for

• professional misconduct,
• inability to perform his duties due to incapacitation or
• failure to perform his required duty?

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 21, 2023, 10:33:55 AM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 21, 2023, 10:08:46 AMI am the Ministreu dal Finançù, and the Burgermeister is my direct report.  If I am directed by the law to provide information to the Ziu, incorporating a report from a civil servant under my legal direction,

The Burgermeister is not under your legal direction. He is responsible to you, but it is not under your legal direction except as required by law.

The report is provided according to my legal direction! If you're going to split hairs with the zeal of a microscopic barber, please do so correctly.

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 21, 2023, 10:33:55 AM

QuoteI am sure your enthusiasm would extend to holding me accountable for what I present to the Ziu, after all.

For what is your responsability, yes.

Great.  Agreed.

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 21, 2023, 10:33:55 AMI wonder if the previous Burgermeister was dissmed for

• professional misconduct,
• inability to perform his duties due to incapacitation or
• failure to perform his required duty?

A new Burgermeister was appointed to take effect only upon his resignation.

Quote

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 21, 2023, 10:33:55 AMI wonder if the previous Burgermeister was dissmed for

• professional misconduct,
• inability to perform his duties due to incapacitation or
• failure to perform his required duty?

A new Burgermeister was appointed to take effect only upon his resignation.

[/quote]

to be honest I was deleting that part, because I wasn't sure as that went down in the data loss. My bad.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 21, 2023, 10:41:56 AM

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 21, 2023, 10:33:55 AM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 21, 2023, 10:08:46 AMI am the Ministreu dal Finançù, and the Burgermeister is my direct report.  If I am directed by the law to provide information to the Ziu, incorporating a report from a civil servant under my legal direction,

The Burgermeister is not under your legal direction. He is responsible to you, but it is not under your legal direction except as required by law.

The report is provided according to my legal direction! If you're going to split hairs with the zeal of a microscopic barber, please do so correctly.

I am doing that correctly.

Please tell me where in the Lexh is said that the report is provided according to your legal direction.

Quote2.8.3.1. a Financial Report as provided in El Lexhatx C.1.5.6;

Quote1.5.6. provide, upon request of the Minister of Finance and any other time stated in law, a Financial Report containing the following information:

The law says only that he has to provide that to you as directed and according with the law.

Can you please point to me where the law says that is provided according to your legal direction?

The Burgermeister is assigned to me "to report and consult concerning the conduct of their office as and when requested, necessary or useful," and in this case provides the report "upon request of the Minister of Finance."  In other words, by law I direct him to prepare the information and he reports to me on this and other matters concerning how he does his job.

The Burgermeister is a civil servant because their position persists until resignation or termination, and it's not a political position concerned with making policy, but rather a position implementing clearly-defined duties, reporting to someone elected by the people.

This esoteric point has quite passed out of usefulness to anyone, though.

The overall lay of the land is that I'm giving the information we have right now and can verify, and will provide the rest as soon as possible.  There is some delay caused by the fact that there haven't been any financial reports in the recent past or any disbursement reports, and we appointed a new Burgermeister upon the resignation of the preceding one after discussing with him how administering the election was very understandably quite enough work for any one person.  Possibly it might have also worked to delay, but I'd still probably be sorting through a CSV to try to match things up.

I'm grateful for your rigor, and I hope you keep it up, since I think it's definitely in service to your country.

Before you said under your legal direction.

QuoteThe report is provided according to my legal direction! If you're going to split hairs with the zeal of a microscopic barber, please do so correctly.

Now you only quote just a part of the section:

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 21, 2023, 11:35:30 AMThe Burgermeister is assigned to me "to report and consult concerning the conduct of their office as and when requested, necessary or useful,"

Because the full part is:

QuoteWith the exception of the Secretary of State and the Permanent Secretaries, every Office of the Royal Civil Service shall be assigned to a responsible Minister of the Government as named below, to report and consult concerning the conduct of their office as and when requested, necessary or useful. Officers are not subject to the direction of their responsible Minister except as required by Organic and statutory law.

quite convenient to not quote the other part right?

Quoteand in this case provides the report "upon request of the Minister of Finance."  In other words, by law I direct him to prepare the information and he reports to me on this and other matters concerning how he does his job.

Also in this case you only quote a part of the section.There's not even a full stop after Finance.

Quoteprovide, upon request of the Minister of Finance and any other time stated in law, a Financial Report containing the following information

that means that he provides the Financial Report

upon request of the Minister of Finance and any other time stated in law

which means:

any other time you request a Report AND when the law requires him to do.

the Financial Report attached to budget is in the last part "any other time stated in law" (which is 2.8.3.1. a Financial Report as provided in El Lexhatx C.1.5.6)

Moreover, the "request" - not for the budget because that is a duty he has to do by law - is simple
"Hey Burgermeister, please provides me with a Financial Report".
"Ok, I'll do it".

The point is: the fact that the law doesn't says what you think it should says or you thought the law said, doesn't mean the law is wrong.

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 21, 2023, 12:21:48 PMBefore you said under your legal direction.

QuoteThe report is provided according to my legal direction! If you're going to split hairs with the zeal of a microscopic barber, please do so correctly.

Now you only quote just a part of the section:

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 21, 2023, 11:35:30 AMThe Burgermeister is assigned to me "to report and consult concerning the conduct of their office as and when requested, necessary or useful,"

Because the full part is:

QuoteWith the exception of the Secretary of State and the Permanent Secretaries, every Office of the Royal Civil Service shall be assigned to a responsible Minister of the Government as named below, to report and consult concerning the conduct of their office as and when requested, necessary or useful. Officers are not subject to the direction of their responsible Minister except as required by Organic and statutory law.

quite convenient to not quote the other part right?

Statutory law is indeed what directs me to ask for the Financial Report and present it for the second Clark.  We've covered that quite a lot.

Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 21, 2023, 12:21:48 PM

Quoteand in this case provides the report "upon request of the Minister of Finance."  In other words, by law I direct him to prepare the information and he reports to me on this and other matters concerning how he does his job.

Also in this case you only quote a part of the section.There's not even a full stop after Finance.

Quoteprovide, upon request of the Minister of Finance and any other time stated in law, a Financial Report containing the following information

that means that he provides the Financial Report

upon request of the Minister of Finance and any other time stated in law

which means:

any other time you request a Report AND when the law requires him to do.

the Financial Report attached to budget is in the last part "any other time stated in law" (which is 2.8.3.1. a Financial Report as provided in El Lexhatx C.1.5.6)

Yes, this is exactly what I was just referencing.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 21, 2023, 12:50:59 PMYes, this is exactly what I was just referencing.

If this helped you to better understand how it should functions and the difference from civil servant and ministers, I'm glad I was able to help you.

As we started from what you said here:

Quotethe law states that I should list changes in account balance since the last report

That was quite a giant leap  ;)

Which brings us back to the first topic.

Previous financial reports and disbursement notices are not required to put together the Financial Report which is quite frankly not a difficult job.

Thank you for your feedback.  I am not sure we will reach an understanding on this point, beyond my assurance that we will provide the absent information as quickly as possible.  Your perspective remains valuable, and your scrutiny is appropriate and just.

MinFor and the Seneschal have agreed that we should trim the proposed budget to try to accommodate some concerns, so the proposed BHAID budget will be slashed in half.

@Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB , I was going to have the financial report part be separate at the top before this bill, but I wonder if that's allowed or considered good form.  As Secretary of State, do you have a preference in presentation?  If necessary, I can add it back as the first section of the bill.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 22, 2023, 07:40:38 PM@Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB , I was going to have the financial report part be separate at the top before this bill, but I wonder if that's allowed or considered good form.  As Secretary of State, do you have a preference in presentation?  If necessary, I can add it back as the first section of the bill.

I'ma little fuzzy on this bill and haven't been following the debate with any regularity. It would probably be best to keep whatever the existing format of previous budget bills are. Sorry that I'm not able to be more specific. I'm currently experiencing vacation brain :-)

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 22, 2023, 07:39:07 PMMinFor and the Seneschal have agreed that we should trim the proposed budget to try to accommodate some concerns, so the proposed BHAID budget will be slashed in half.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 04, 2023, 01:12:01 PMThe current funds of the Kingdom consist of a checking account, a savings account, and a Paypal account.  On report from the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue, these accounts stand at the following balances:
Checking: $1,178.50
Savings: $46.60
Paypal: $267.93
Total: $1493.03

There should be the date of that assessment.

QuoteThere was no financial report filed during the 57th Cosa, as confirmed with the Seneschal and Ministreu dal Finançù, of that term, and accordingly it will not be possible to provide a list of transactions.

There's no correlation between the "it will not be possible to provide a list of transactions" and the lack of a Financial Report attached to the 57th Budget.

If I may, Baron, can you double check these balances:

QuoteThe current funds of the Kingdom consist of a checking account, a savings account, and a Paypal account.  On report from the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue, these accounts stand at the following balances:
Checking: $1,178.50
Savings: $46.60
Paypal: $267.93
Total: $1493.03

When I was Burgermeister the vast majority of the treasury was in savings, not checking. Has the current Burgermeister moved the funds out of the interest accruing savings account and into checking? If so, for what purpose?

lol thank you, no I just transposed those labels when I was copying and pasting from the Burgermeister. I'm going to update this when we get to submission day, so hopefully I would have caught that, but thank you!

I have updated the draft with expenditures and notes indicating their connection to the preceding budget.  Per the SoS' wishes, I have also put the whole thing back into one familiar-format bill.

Are there any further questions, concerns, or objections before I Clark this?

Yes.

(1) there should be a date of assesment of the amount of funds (D.1.5.6.1.).

(2) there's now D.1.5.6.3. but it still miss this:

Quote1.5.6.2. a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the last Report,

I'm sure we had also incomes (like registration fees) and not only expenditures.

(3) And, of course, Part A should have been done by the Burgermeister and not by the Minister. (You didn't see that coming, did you?)

I think the date is implicit with the date of submission.  The funds will be accurate to the day when the bill is submitted.  But I will add an explicit date, sure.

On your second point, I will include changes since the last report, as given to me.  Thank you for reminding me.

The Burgermeister provided me with the figures.  I am charged with submitting this bill to the Ziu, and so I have put together the actual format of the bill consistent with the rest of the budget.

Looking at how this was done in the past (https://wiki.talossa.com/Law:54RZ9_The_54th_Cosa_Budget#PART_A:_State_of_the_Treasury), it's pretty voluminous.  I think that we should probably streamline how the information is presented.  Maybe part of why the government fell out of compliance for so many years is just that it's a huge hassle.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 04, 2023, 01:12:01 PMWHEREAS the Organic Law directs that each government submit a budget by the second Clark of their Cosa term,

PART A: Financial Report

The current funds of the Kingdom consist of a checking account, a savings account, and a Paypal account.  On report from the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue as of 30 March 2023, these accounts stand at the following balances:
•  Checking: 31¤4 ($46.60 USD)
•  Savings: 785¤40 ($1,178.50 USD)
•  Paypal: 183¤38 ($275.44 USD)
       Total: 1000¤22 ($1500.54 USD)

There was no previous Financial Report for the previous Cosa term, but on report from the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue, the following are the expenditures from the last budget which occurred between 21 May 2022 and 30 Mar 2023:
•  -40¤34 ($60.85 USD)    Webhosting costs
•  -18¤12 ($27.30 USD)    Webhosting costs
•  -35¤23 ($53.07 USD)    Google ads

Since the last legal Financial Report in February of 2020, on report from the Burgermeister of Inland Revue the following changes to account balances have occurred as of 30 Mar 2023:
•  Checking:+4¤49 ($7.23 USD)
•  Savings:+76¤38 ($114.96 USD)
•  Paypal:+139¤32 ($209.29 USD)

The amount of current coinage and stamps in circulation and in reserve is currently unknown.  This information will be provided in a supplemental report to the Ziu.

PART B: Budget

THEREFORE, His Majesty's Government hereby submits to the Ziu a request for the appropriation of funds from the Royal Treasury totaling 366¤40 ($550 USD) for the specific purposes and subject to restrictions as outlined herein:

Ministrà dal Cúltură

• Culture grants 66¤40 ($100 USD)

This amount will be set aside for fulfillment of any Culture Initiative Support Fund grants.  These grants are intended to help spur and reward activity from our citizens, providing them with small amounts to support language, journalism, or other cultural plans.  In previous years, most of this money has gone unspent.

Ministrà dal Tec'hnoloxhà

• Speculative Webhosting costs 133¤20 ($200 USD)

For obvious Wittpocalypse-related reasons, future plans for our web infrastructure remain uncertain.  As the Ministreu dal Tec'hnoloxhà explores different options in conjunction with Permanent Secretary da Schir, the Government is erring on the cautious side and appropriating sufficient funds to meet a variety of needs.  It is our expectation that only a small portion of this money will need to be spent.

Ministrà dels Afaes Utphätseschti

• BHAID 33¤20 ($50 USD)

The Bureau for Humanitarian Aid and International Development will continue its support for important causes worldwide.

Ministrà à Savanar da Talossa àls Ultra-Fiovaes Folăs

• Advertising 66¤40 ($100 USD)

These funds will accommodate a cost-effective and high-impact future advertising campaign.

• Stationary and Postage for IDs and Certificates 66¤40 ($100 USD)

Once state assets are recovered from private hands and the ID program can continue, the Government will employ this sum to print, laminate, and mail the results.  Awards and grants will also be printed on fine paper and mailed to recipients.

FURTHERMORE, notwithstanding the above allocations, no funds shall be disbursed without a notice of disbursement having first been transmitted to the Ziu at least fourteen days prior to the disbursement, except that disbursements solely for the purpose of postage may be made with no less than 24 hours notice. Notices shall contain details of the purchase and a cost estimate for the purchase, or the total amount paid if seeking funds for reimbursement. Copies of receipts and/or invoices will be provided upon request to Members of the Ziu.

FURTHERMORE, any funds allocated by this section shall be retained in the central fund by the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue until such time as they are disbursed. Funds not disbursed prior to the end of the government term shall remain in the central fund.


PART C: Investment Policy

FURTHERMORE, His Majesty's Government hereby directs the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue to invest all held funds into a high-interest savings account unless or until otherwise directed or advised by act of the Ziu.


PART D: Coinage and Postage

FURTHERMORE, His Majesty's Government has no plans to coin monies or print postage during this term, as supplies remain sufficient to sustain both markets.


PART E: Donations Target

FURTHERMORE, His Majesty's Government proposes a voluntary fundraising goal of $200 over the course of this term.


PART F: Designated Assassination Targets

<REDACTED>


Uréu q'estadra så
His Majesty's Government, represented by Ministreu dal Finançù Alexandreu Davinescu

@Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB , please Clark this.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 30, 2023, 07:06:54 AM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 04, 2023, 01:12:01 PMWHEREAS the Organic Law directs that each government submit a budget by the second Clark of their Cosa term,

PART A: Financial Report

The current funds of the Kingdom consist of a checking account, a savings account, and a Paypal account.  On report from the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue as of 30 March 2023, these accounts stand at the following balances:
•  Checking: 31¤4 ($46.60 USD)
•  Savings: 785¤40 ($1,178.50 USD)
•  Paypal: 183¤38 ($275.44 USD)
       Total: 1000¤22 ($1500.54 USD)

There was no previous Financial Report for the previous Cosa term, but on report from the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue, the following are the expenditures from the last budget which occurred between 21 May 2022 and 30 Mar 2023:
•  -40¤34 ($60.85 USD)    Webhosting costs
•  -18¤12 ($27.30 USD)    Webhosting costs
•  -35¤23 ($53.07 USD)    Google ads

Since the last legal Financial Report in February of 2020, on report from the Burgermeister of Inland Revue the following changes to account balances have occurred as of 30 Mar 2023:
•  Checking:+4¤49 ($7.23 USD)
•  Savings:+76¤38 ($114.96 USD)
•  Paypal:+139¤32 ($209.29 USD)

The amount of current coinage and stamps in circulation and in reserve is currently unknown.  This information will be provided in a supplemental report to the Ziu.

PART B: Budget

THEREFORE, His Majesty's Government hereby submits to the Ziu a request for the appropriation of funds from the Royal Treasury totaling 366¤40 ($550 USD) for the specific purposes and subject to restrictions as outlined herein:

Ministrà dal Cúltură

• Culture grants 66¤40 ($100 USD)

This amount will be set aside for fulfillment of any Culture Initiative Support Fund grants.  These grants are intended to help spur and reward activity from our citizens, providing them with small amounts to support language, journalism, or other cultural plans.  In previous years, most of this money has gone unspent.

Ministrà dal Tec'hnoloxhà

• Speculative Webhosting costs 133¤20 ($200 USD)

For obvious Wittpocalypse-related reasons, future plans for our web infrastructure remain uncertain.  As the Ministreu dal Tec'hnoloxhà explores different options in conjunction with Permanent Secretary da Schir, the Government is erring on the cautious side and appropriating sufficient funds to meet a variety of needs.  It is our expectation that only a small portion of this money will need to be spent.

Ministrà dels Afaes Utphätseschti

• BHAID 33¤20 ($50 USD)

The Bureau for Humanitarian Aid and International Development will continue its support for important causes worldwide.

Ministrà à Savanar da Talossa àls Ultra-Fiovaes Folăs

• Advertising 66¤40 ($100 USD)

These funds will accommodate a cost-effective and high-impact future advertising campaign.

• Stationary and Postage for IDs and Certificates 66¤40 ($100 USD)

Once state assets are recovered from private hands and the ID program can continue, the Government will employ this sum to print, laminate, and mail the results.  Awards and grants will also be printed on fine paper and mailed to recipients.

FURTHERMORE, notwithstanding the above allocations, no funds shall be disbursed without a notice of disbursement having first been transmitted to the Ziu at least fourteen days prior to the disbursement, except that disbursements solely for the purpose of postage may be made with no less than 24 hours notice. Notices shall contain details of the purchase and a cost estimate for the purchase, or the total amount paid if seeking funds for reimbursement. Copies of receipts and/or invoices will be provided upon request to Members of the Ziu.

FURTHERMORE, any funds allocated by this section shall be retained in the central fund by the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue until such time as they are disbursed. Funds not disbursed prior to the end of the government term shall remain in the central fund.


PART C: Investment Policy

FURTHERMORE, His Majesty's Government hereby directs the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue to invest all held funds into a high-interest savings account unless or until otherwise directed or advised by act of the Ziu.


PART D: Coinage and Postage

FURTHERMORE, His Majesty's Government has no plans to coin monies or print postage during this term, as supplies remain sufficient to sustain both markets.


PART E: Donations Target

FURTHERMORE, His Majesty's Government proposes a voluntary fundraising goal of $200 over the course of this term.


PART F: Designated Assassination Targets

<REDACTED>


Uréu q'estadra så
His Majesty's Government, represented by Ministreu dal Finançù Alexandreu Davinescu

@Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB , please Clark this.

Gee I hope my name isn't among the redacted section F LOL

Once again I have to ask you to please link or ask bills to be Clarked in the official call for bills thread. If I had not scrolled back in the latest posts I might have missed this bill. There are so many posts, which is why I use an official thread.

Thanks.

Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on March 30, 2023, 08:28:30 AMGee I hope my name isn't among the redacted section F LOL

Luckly we abolished P.I.G.!

Quote from: Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB on March 30, 2023, 11:10:17 AMOnce again I have to ask you to please link or ask bills to be Clarked in the official call for bills thread. If I had not scrolled back in the latest posts I might have missed this bill. There are so many posts, which is why I use an official thread.

Thanks.

I will find the person responsible for making this mistake again, and punish them severely.  It's a big office here, though, so there's no telling who it might have been.  They're probably sorry and regret the trouble, I'd imagine.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 30, 2023, 11:32:37 AM

Quote from: Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB on March 30, 2023, 11:10:17 AMOnce again I have to ask you to please link or ask bills to be Clarked in the official call for bills thread. If I had not scrolled back in the latest posts I might have missed this bill. There are so many posts, which is why I use an official thread.

Thanks.

I will find the person responsible for making this mistake again, and punish them severely.  It's a big office here, though, so there's no telling who it might have been.  They're probably sorry and regret the trouble, I'd imagine.

Please file in triplicate the official warning and reprimand with the Archivist.