I'm not a member of the College of Arms, but back in the day (https://talossa.proboards.com/thread/6981/national-arms-neater-design) when I made the vector version of our National Coat of Arms that it is still used today, I tried to make a new vector version of the Greater one. I still think that we should have a new vector version to go along with the simpler CoA. The current file is too old and too ancient (and they don't match).
(https://wiki.talossa.com/images/7/7a/Talarms.gif)
Can I offer to you for discussion/consideration the last version I came up with 9 years ago?
(http://www.genova7.it/varie/uc/Greater_prova3.png)
Is it just me or are the squirrels just a bit scary? Also, is the motto different?
- SVA/REH
Quote from: Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB on March 13, 2023, 07:49:40 AMIs it just me or are the squirrels just a bit scary? Also, is the motto different?
It was difficult, and it still is, to find
svg of squirrels good enough or appropriate as supportes. Those were the best I found (I took them from Laihia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laihia) in Finland and I removed the tongue). If someone is able to find or design a better and appropriate svg squirrel I'd be happy to swap them.
On the motto, years ago we found out that the original motto was written in bad finnish, and we updated our law in the 37th Cosa. The current gif still has the old version. Lexhatx § L.5.1 describes:
Quote5.1 The Coat of Arms of Talossa shall exist in two forms: the Lesser State Arms and the Greater State Arms. The Lesser State Arms is thus blazoned: "Argent the Chinese Character 'Ben' meaning energetic Sable. Surrounding the Escutcheon an Annulet Azure fimbriated Or bearing the words 'Regipäts Talossán Kingdom * 26.12.1979 *' Or. For the Crest a Royal Crown Proper." The Greater State Arms consists of the Lesser State Arms with the following supporters and base: "Two Talossan Squirrels Proper standing upon a Ribbon Argent fimbriated at the chief Vert and at the base Gules bearing the motto 'Miehen Huone on Hänen Valtakuntasna'". Either form of the Coat of Arms of Talossa may be used for official and patriotic purposes."
EDIT: the original 37RZ10 (https://wiki.talossa.com/Law:The_Finish_the_Finnish_Act_(Amendment)) had
Valtakuntansa (as in my draft), but in the lexhatx there's
Valtakuntasna. When that change happened? Or it is just a transcribing error that need to be fixed?
Maybe helpful:
Wikimedia SVG: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Coa_Illustration_Elements_Animal_Squirrel_Sejant_Erect.svg
Fancy paid but nice realistic SVG: https://www.etsy.com/listing/1150003606/squirrel-svg
A handful of other heraldric-style examples:
http://heraldicart.org/squirrel/
-NRH
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 13, 2023, 08:50:47 AMMaybe helpful:
Wikimedia SVG: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Coa_Illustration_Elements_Animal_Squirrel_Sejant_Erect.svg
Fancy paid but nice realistic SVG: https://www.etsy.com/listing/1150003606/squirrel-svg
A handful of other heraldric-style examples:
http://heraldicart.org/squirrel/
-NRH
Well, I personally find the one I used better that all of those :D What do you think?
Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 13, 2023, 08:38:12 AMEDIT: the original 37RZ10 (https://wiki.talossa.com/Law:The_Finish_the_Finnish_Act_(Amendment)) had Valtakuntansa (as in my draft), but in the lexhatx there's Valtakuntasna. When that change happened? Or it is just a transcribing error that need to be fixed?
Back in the day, that mistake in the law was already noted but never corrected (https://talossa.proboards.com/post/81210/thread). The original thread is here (https://talossa.proboards.com/thread/2254/finish-finnish-act).
Now we need a bill to amend el Lexhatx, because the Scribe can no longer update it because it is true that 37RZ10 (https://wiki.talossa.com/Law:The_Finish_the_Finnish_Act_(Amendment)) has the right reading, but that law amended the LegOrg. The current section in the Lexhatx came from 53RZ22 (https://wiki.talossa.com/53RZ22) which copied the then current erroneous reading of the LegOrg in the statutory law. Now the original act is 53RZ22 but that has the wrong text, so we need a new law to correct it. I'll hopper it.
I really appreciate your work, but if you're looking for feedback, I agree with Txec that those squirrels look a little scary. They have Polar Express-style dead eyes.
One other thing is that it might be good to make it a little broader in terms of its aspect ratio, and try to make the text more visible. When it's smaller than the big version above, it's hard to make out the name and impossible to make out the motto.
(http://www.genova7.it/varie/uc/Greater_prova3.png)
All of that said, you're doing great work and it's much prettier than our ancient version. I hope you will keep at it!
-NRH
I actually like the squirrels better the more I look at them, especially when they're smaller. Hmm.
-NRH
Well, consider that the whole point to do them vectorial is to generate neater version in different size, the file I posted is a png so when you shrink is not neat. I can generate smaller version from the original svg (I didn't upload the svg of the smaller coa on the wiki because at that time our wiki didn't allow me to upload svg, I don't know if now I can but I still have the svg and I can upload it anytime) and the words will be more readable. However, I can try to make the words of the motto bigger to use all the ribbon.
On the squirrels: I know that they aren't the best, what I meant is that in my opinion they are better than the one you linked. If you feel that one of them, or another svg, is better than the one I used, I can swap them. Right now I can try to modify the eyes of the one I used.
Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 13, 2023, 10:25:55 AMWell, consider that the whole point to do them vectorial is to generate neater version in different size, the file I posted is a png so when you shrink is not neat. I can generate smaller version from the original svg (I didn't upload the svg of the smaller coa on the wiki because at that time our wiki didn't allow me to upload svg, I don't know if now I can but I still have the svg and I can upload it anytime) and the words will be more readable. However, I can try to make the words of the motto bigger to use all the ribbon.
Yeah, that makes sense -- the SVG is going to shrink a little better. On the SVG, is the text legible if the image is 150px tall?
Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 13, 2023, 10:25:55 AMOn the squirrels: I know that they aren't the best, what I meant is that in my opinion they are better than the one you linked. If you feel that one of them, or another svg, is better than the one I used, I can swap them. Right now I can try to modify the eyes of the one I used.
I'm kind of partial to this one: http://heraldicart.org/squirrel/squirrel-3.svg
But I don't feel strongly about it, and maybe it doesn't match up with your vision so far. Like I think the lines would need to be heavier to put it in concord with the rest of your current design. I'm hesitant to suggest specifics, though, since I don't have your good design sense.
-NRH
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on March 13, 2023, 10:44:12 AMI'm kind of partial to this one: http://heraldicart.org/squirrel/squirrel-3.svg
It might bee too comic-ish, but I'll try it in the next days (I have the SVG in an external hard-disk at home) and we will judge the resulting image.
I rebuilt them completely from scratch. I will update the Lesser State Arms on the wiki soon.
I tried to make the original squirrel slightly less scary, and I used the one suggested with few fixes. I still believe it is too comic-ish.
I rather like the new squirrels :-)
-SVA/REH
I actually used the new squirrels without the small tweaks I made :( I'll upload them again tomorrow, but the uploaded design it's enough to get an idea of the final result.
Quote from: Üc R. Tärfâ on March 14, 2023, 01:01:17 PMI rebuilt them completely from scratch. I will update the Lesser State Arms on the wiki soon.
I tried to make the original squirrel slightly less scary, and I used the one suggested with few fixes. I still believe it is too comic-ish.
(Should may interruption be forgiven, I want to say that...)
That banner looks much improved! Even when scaled down it is readable.
If my opinion is to be heard, the first set of squirrels looks overall nicer but it's also true that they look menacing. It's the eyes and the mouth that make them look so. I'm not in love with those ears either -- they remind me of a sea monster's ears.
I concur the squirrels in the new set look a little cartoonish.
Maybe I should fire up inkscape and try to put the new squirrels on the body of the old squirrels, defying nature itself to combine them into one unholy creature.
-NRH
Quote from: Danihel Txechescu on March 14, 2023, 03:40:09 PMI'm not in love with those ears either -- they remind me of a sea monster's ears.
Remember that the European squirrel has longer and hairyer ears than the American one, so it is perfectly understandable that in heraldry we find squirrels with that ears.
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/54568279e4b0fa3f2acee557/1631119816299-LAU0QYOA8EMDN79X2KGY/squirrelhide_19042021-8507749.jpeg?format=1500w)
ah, no squishy-squashy squirrels, we need flesh-eating deadly squirrels to guard the sacred symbols of talossa. the point of heraldic animals is to look scary and ready to fight; there are no domesticated pets but armed and dangerous guardians.
when nazis took over the rest of czecho-slovakia in march 1939, establishing protektorat böhmen und mähren, they also devised a new CoA with both heraldic animals, the two-tailed lion of bohemia and the checkered eagle of moravia, looking like a wet cat and flabby hen, intentionally making it different from the traditional, combative, way they were depicted (e.g., the lion looks like being neutered, as the testicle is covered with some cross-hatching). they also ordered that no other form of the CoA is acceptable.
Quote from: Üc R. Tärfă on March 14, 2023, 01:01:17 PMI tried to make the original squirrel slightly less scary
Do you have an SVG file you can share? I think these ultimately look pretty good, and it would be great to incorporate them into some state stuff.
Yes I do. I'd like to have a sort of consensus on the College on those before saying "ok I can upload it on the wiki". Also if someone else wants to try to improve the squirrels, they can. I don't have them in the PC I'm using now (and I didn't put the last SVG on my cloud), I'll attach those later in the week.
Sounds good! Thank you for your hard work!