Wittenberg

WHEREAS El Lexhatx C.1.2.2.5.4 currently provides that citizens may "opt out" from Government emails;

AND WHEREAS anecdotal evidence suggests that citizens who have opted out from the Electorate Database (for political advertising) or the Contact Database (for contact from other citizens) are also not getting the emails that have been sent out by the Government, that is, that the Chancery have assumed that they have "opted out";

AND WHEREAS initiatives like La C'hronica and the National Survey are supposed to reach out to all citizens, not just those who read Wittenberg or social media regularly;

AND WHEREAS it must be possible for the Government to contact all citizens, every single one, for such initiatives to be effective;

AND WHEREAS the other provisions contained in El Lexhatx C.1.2.2.5.1-3 are sufficient to stop the Government "spamming" citizens except about important things;

BE IT ENACTED by the King, Cosa and Senats in Ziu assembled that El Lexhatx C.1.2.2.5 be amended as below:

QuoteC.1.2.2.5 The Seneschál may request on behalf of the Government that a given communication shall be sent out by the Chancery to the email address of every citizen who has not "opted out" as provided in section 1.2.2.5.4 below. The Chancery shall grant this request if, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, the following provisions are met:

1.2.2.5.1 Such communication shall pertain wholly to official Government business.

1.2.2.5.2 Such communication may not include publicity for, or any other business pertaining to, any political party or candidate for election, nor advocate for or against any ideology, political position, or legislation.

1.2.2.5.3 Such communications are not sufficiently frequent or repetitive enough to qualify as "spam".

1.2.2.5.4 Citizens may "opt out" of receiving such communications by making a request to the Chancery.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 14, 2020, 10:57:50 PM
AND WHEREAS anecdotal evidence suggests that citizens who have opted out from the Electorate Database (for political advertising) or the Contact Database (for contact from other citizens) are also not getting the emails that have been sent out by the Government, that is, that the Chancery have assumed that they have "opted out";

This is not true. The contact database isn't functioning at the moment because you need to opt in and I think only one person has. Opting out from the electoral database doesnt result in an opt out from government communications (though its possible that some have blocked the email address used for both alltogether).

The people who opted out from the government list (more than people who opted in to the contact one) replied opt out to one of the  chronica mails

Disagreed that citizens who specifically dont want government newsletters should get government newsletters.

Also worried that it might result in people ignoring all Talossa related email or people changing their database email.

I think there's a misunderstanding here. To my knowledge, there is no "government list". There is an Electoral Database (for electioneering from political parties) and a Contact Database (for contact from other Talossans). Has the chancery set up a third list, for Government/official announcements? Because I can't find authorisation for that in law.

I know for a fact that not all current citizens have been receiving La C'hronica, or at least that's what they told me.

I don't recall opting out of any email lists — on the contrary, I quite like to receive all Talossa communications because it keeps me informed and in the loops.

I didn't receive any political emails in this election so far, except my ballot, nor copies of La C'hronica. Why not?

I don't want the government to send me any email. I only want things from the chancery.

Quote from: Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on July 18, 2020, 08:45:10 AM
I don't want the government to send me any email. I only want things from the chancery.

Just making it clear that we are talking about communications from the Government to all citizens through the Chancery, as specified in El Lexh C.1.2.2.5. You seem to be saying that you don't want to receive the National Survey and La C'hronică, methods the Government has created precisely to re-activate citizens. This is where anti-Government spite has its limits.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 18, 2020, 03:11:25 PM

Quote from: Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on July 18, 2020, 08:45:10 AM
I don't want the government to send me any email. I only want things from the chancery.

Just making it clear that we are talking about communications from the Government to all citizens through the Chancery, as specified in El Lexh C.1.2.2.5. You seem to be saying that you don't want to receive the National Survey and La C'hronică, methods the Government has created precisely to re-activate citizens. This is where anti-Government spite has its limits.

I don't mind getting the survey, but I don't want to receive any Government newsletters.  I guess if the Government changes the law to try to force me to accept them, I can always set up an email filter, but that's annoying.

Quote from: Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on July 18, 2020, 05:04:13 PM

I don't mind getting the survey, but I don't want to receive any Government newsletters.

That makes slightly more sense - but how would you distinguish between them in terms of the current law?

Your current bill eliminates the ability of a citizen to opt-out of Government contact through the Chancery list (to which all citizens belong and through which ballots and the census are sent).  So just abandon your bill.  Thanks.

There is also an Electorate/Electoral Database that people can opt-in for political adverts, and a Contact Database that people can opt-in to just have their email info available to any Talossan.

Quote from: Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on July 18, 2020, 10:00:18 PM
Your current bill eliminates the ability of a citizen to opt-out of Government contact through the Chancery list (to which all citizens belong and through which ballots and the census are sent).

I am beginning to think you don't know what you're talking about, and yet you talk so confidently as if you did, lol. There is no difference in current law between the National Survey and La C'hronică. Both are authorised by El Lexhatx C.1.2.2.5. I think you are perhaps confusing the Census with the National Survey?

In any case, I think there is a more fundamental question here, and that is that the Chancery email list is itself defective, as shown by how many people in this election haven't received ballots (I've had 4 complaints so far), let alone never receive La C'hronică. So I'm going to get back on my hobby horse about making the Census compulsory - i.e. if you don't keep your email updated, your citizenship gets put on ice until you do.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 18, 2020, 11:31:10 PM

Quote from: Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on July 18, 2020, 10:00:18 PM
Your current bill eliminates the ability of a citizen to opt-out of Government contact through the Chancery list (to which all citizens belong and through which ballots and the census are sent).

I am beginning to think you don't know what you're talking about, and yet you talk so confidently as if you did, lol. There is no difference in current law between the National Survey and La C'hronică. Both are authorised by El Lexhatx C.1.2.2.5. I think you are perhaps confusing the Census with the National Survey?

In addition to the C.1.2.2.5 provision ("C.1.2.2.5 The Seneschál may request on behalf of the Government that a given communication shall be sent out by the Chancery to the email address of every citizen who has not "opted out" as provided in section 1.2.2.5.4 below"), there are two other parts of el Lexh that create contact lists.  One is referred to as the "Electorate Database," and the other is the "Contact Information Database."

QuoteD.8.5. Information Available to Political Party Leaders
8.5.1. An Electorate Database shall be made available to political party leaders.
8.5.2. The Database shall only be accessible by leaders of parties which have been fully registered with the Chancery and provincial officers, provided the conditions in D.8.5 are met.
8.5.3. The Database shall contain the following information on each of the Kingdom's Citizens only: Name, Province, E-Mail address.
8.5.4. The E-Mail address of a citizen shall only be made available to party leaders if the citizen has opted-in to receive election communications
8.5.5. Measures shall be taken to ensure that the database is kept non-public and can only be viewed by the audience intended.
8.5.6. Additional information may be held upon the database against any given person ONLY if that person requests such information to be included.
8.5.7. Any citizen may request to opt-out of having their E-Mail address included in this database for any reason at any time by notifying the Chancery.

D.8.8 Information Available to All Citizens (53RZ23)
8.8.1. An Contact Information Database shall be made available to all citizens. (53RZ23)
8.8.2. The Database shall contain the following information on each of the Kingdom's Citizens only: Name, Province, E-Mail address. (53RZ23)
8.8.3. The E-Mail address of a citizen shall only be made available if the citizen has opted-in to receiving communications. Opting-in to the Electorate Database does not constitute opting-in to the Contact Information Database. (53RZ23)
8.8.4. Additional information may be held upon the database against any given person ONLY if that person requests such information to be included. (53RZ23)
8.8.5. Each electoral ballot and census shall ask if the citizen would like to opt-in to the Electoral Database and the Contact Information Database. Any citizen may request to opt-out of having their E-Mail address included in this database for any reason at any time by notifying the Chancery.

You propose to alter the first provision, which places limits on the power of the government to use the chancery list to contact citizens, by removing the ability of people to opt out of it. I do not want to see if any government newsletters, but to receive the census. So the status quo is what I prefer.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 18, 2020, 11:31:10 PM
In any case, I think there is a more fundamental question here, and that is that the Chancery email list is itself defective, as shown by how many people in this election haven't received ballots (I've had 4 complaints so far), let alone never receive La C'hronică. So I'm going to get back on my hobby horse about making the Census compulsory - i.e. if you don't keep your email updated, your citizenship gets put on ice until you do.

Makes absolute sense to be more rigorous about kicking out citizens, sure.  There's too many right now, since we're growing too fast, and if they don't keep their email address updated with the Chancery, they don't deserve to be Talossans.  On both a moral and practical level, it makes sense to punish people for failing to update their contact information by exiling them from Talossa, even if they still stay interested enough and active enough to vote.  Definitely not completely insane.

Alex, you still don't get it. You're still talking about the National Census as described by law, and the National Survey, the Government initiative I ran last year and I aim to run again if I'm re-elected, as if they were the same thing. You're making a fool of yourself.

BTW, it's not very cool to use ableist language like "insane" to describe things you disagree with.

Given Talossa's nature as a voluntary association, I think keeping the ability to opt-out is important.  But at the same time, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why someone would want to opt out completely in the first place.

I think part of this cuts right to the heart of what it means to "do Talossa."  Given the peculiar nature of Talossa, is a citizen who is completely incommunicado with the wider community still count as Talossan?  No interest in current goings on, contact information completely out of date, no functional link to the Talossan state.  Can this person still be said to be "doing Talossa?"

The Derivationist answer is probably, in some way, "yes."  Peculiarists of a certain stripe may very well say "no."  Most voluntary associations require contact (many even require a level of activity) to be considered a "member." 

Then that gets us into the weeds of whether something is lost when an inactive citizen is cut form the rolls.  But that's an answer that varies based on what you value.

Quote from: Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu on July 19, 2020, 04:23:01 PM
Given Talossa's nature as a voluntary association, I think keeping the ability to opt-out is important.  But at the same time, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why someone would want to opt out completely in the first place.

I think part of this cuts right to the heart of what it means to "do Talossa."  Given the peculiar nature of Talossa, is a citizen who is completely incommunicado with the wider community still count as Talossan?  No interest in current goings on, contact information completely out of date, no functional link to the Talossan state.  Can this person still be said to be "doing Talossa?"

The Derivationist answer is probably, in some way, "yes."  Peculiarists of a certain stripe may very well say "no."  Most voluntary associations require contact (many even require a level of activity) to be considered a "member." 

Then that gets us into the weeds of whether something is lost when an inactive citizen is cut form the rolls.  But that's an answer that varies based on what you value.

Vitxalmour Conductour is my best friend. We are in constant contact with each other, and see each other, at the very least, once a week. (We'd probably hang out more often than that, if my day job wasn't so physically demanding.) (Hard to have fun with a pal when you are completely exhausted.) Vitx hasn't bothered to register on this New Witt. He's still a Talossan, we constantly discuss Talossan things, and collaborate all the time on ideas for our Benito Cjováni subculture. The online aspect of Talossa just doesn't interest him much. (He's raising four daughters, so he has other priorities.) His inactivity may cause him to be cut from the rolls, which is not fair. Is Talossa just an internet club? Like Facebook groups that expel members when they haven't participated or posted anything in awhile? To me, Witt ain't Talossa. It's an online forum about Talossa. Being Talossan is what you do, offline.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 19, 2020, 03:30:51 PM
Alex, you still don't get it. You're still talking about the National Census as described by law, and the National Survey, the Government initiative I ran last year and I aim to run again if I'm re-elected, as if they were the same thing. You're making a fool of yourself.

BTW, it's not very cool to use ableist language like "insane" to describe things you disagree with.

I'm not sure you quite get it, honestly. I haven't been talking about the national survey at all.  Like the second thing in this thread was that I didn't care about it.

I think I've been pretty clear about what my desires are. But whatever, call me a fool. It doesn't really matter and debate here won't affect the outcome anyway.

Iason, tell me this. Is there any way by which the Government can get in touch with Vitx? A working email address, etc? A phone number? A snail-mail address?

This is all that the Government wants to make sure we have. The Government wants to make sure we can contact every citizen, by whatever means. We certainly don't want to make "using Witt" compulsory - in fact, we condemn the current M-M Senatorial election, in which you can only vote with a NewWitt account and this causes problems.

If you're like me at all, I got my eyes crossed and head upside down trying to understand what's going on in this thread. So, I think it'd help to clarify:

The status quo creates five separate contact lists for five separate purposes, but only three of them may be "opted out" by a citizen. Those three are...

1) A list for the Chancery, via C.1.2.2.5;
2) A list for political parties, via D.8.5; and
3) A list for general citizens, via D.8.8.

The Seneschal would like to make the Chancery list mandatory, where a citizen may NOT opt out, so that newsletters and other print media may be distributed. Some opposition to this idea is that a person may NOT want to receive newsletters in the first place.

However, it should be pointed out that the Chancery list may be used only when the message...

1) Pertains wholly to official Government business,
2) Does not include whatsoever any publicity or other businesses about a political party or candidate, and
3) Is not sent so often before or after another as to be considered spam.

Therefore, I might suggest that newsletters like La C'hronica are already impermissible because they're likely not to pertain wholly to Government business and are likely to discuss politics.

If this bill were to pass, there would be no more increased danger of receiving "newsletters" or "political ads" than in the status quo.

To that end, I recognize the merits for which the Seneschal may want citizens to receive certain news media (such as La C'hronica). I think and do suggest that that should be introduced as a whole separate bill, however.

Furthermore, after poring through El Lexhatx, it seems that there may be a greater need for reform than we realized. El Lexhatx is incredibly muddled on this subject, and it just should not have taken me or anyone else so much effort to figure out which lists are what and which lists may be opted out of.

Perhaps we could ask citizens the following questions:

1) Do you want to receive information about or from elections, political parties, political campaigns, and candidates?
2) Do you want to receive information from accredited news outlets, such as newsletters or magazines?
3) Do you want to be contacted or reachable otherwise via email by other citizens?

The default answer to all three questions is 'yes', but a citizen may elect 'no'.

This would require, as I said, some pretty hefty overhauling of El Lexhatx.

Quote from: Açafat del Val on July 20, 2020, 11:36:37 AM
If you're like me at all, I got my eyes crossed and head upside down trying to understand what's going on in this thread. So, I think it'd help to clarify:

The status quo creates five separate contact lists for five separate purposes, but only three of them may be "opted out" by a citizen. Those three are...

1) A list for the Chancery, via C.1.2.2.5;
2) A list for political parties, via D.8.5; and
3) A list for general citizens, via D.8.8.

The Seneschal would like to make the Chancery list mandatory, where a citizen may NOT opt out, so that newsletters and other print media may be distributed. Some opposition to this idea is that a person may NOT want to receive newsletters in the first place.

However, it should be pointed out that the Chancery list may be used only when the message...

1) Pertains wholly to official Government business,
2) Does not include whatsoever any publicity or other businesses about a political party or candidate, and
3) Is not sent so often before or after another as to be considered spam.

Therefore, I might suggest that newsletters like La C'hronica are already impermissible because they're likely not to pertain wholly to Government business and are likely to discuss politics.

If this bill were to pass, there would be no more increased danger of receiving "newsletters" or "political ads" than in the status quo.

That was a good summary and clarifying, thank you.  There was basically no opposition to the provisions specifically in question, which were Clarked by the current Seneschal a few months into her tenure, so unfortunately there's no discussion about the merits of allowing citizens to opt-out of Government newsletters.  As I recall, Gluc mostly just wanted to know how much was too much.

While I have no interest in Government newsletters, including La C'hronica, by the way, I do have to disagree that it isn't permitted under the current rules.  Thus far they seem to be even-handed and apolitical summaries of discussions and events in Talossa, and while the system could certainly be abused, ESB has actually done a good job in that regard.

Quote from: Açafat del Val on July 20, 2020, 11:56:46 AM
Furthermore, after poring through El Lexhatx, it seems that there may be a greater need for reform than we realized. El Lexhatx is incredibly muddled on this subject, and it just should not have taken me or anyone else so much effort to figure out which lists are what and which lists may be opted out of.

Yeah, each of the three sections were the result of three separate people adding their own addendums/lists to the existing system.  First there was the electorate database established by Etho with his transparency bill, then Ian P. added the contact database as part of his continuing efforts to get people to talk off of Witt sometimes, and then Miestra added the ability of the Government to send stuff through the official Chancery list.  Probably all three should be cut and consolidated in one Title and with a clear system that the SoS is okay with.

Quote from: Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on July 20, 2020, 12:17:46 PM
Probably all three should be cut and consolidated in one Title and with a clear system that the SoS is okay with.

Very much agreed; it's what I was getting at.

What I'd like to suggest is that:

(a) This bill specifically be left alone;

(b) If/When this bill may be clarked, we make it clear to everyone that citizens will be mandatorily "opted in" only for truly important Government information (for example, the death of a beloved citizen or a DDoS attack on Witt);

(c) Newsletters like La C'hronica, however apolitical they may or may not be, be sent via a different mechanism than the Chancery List; and

(d) We introduce a separate bill that rewrites/consolidates the applicable parts of El Lexhatx.

As I said, the next three questions are the ones that matter:

1) Do you want to receive information about or from elections, political parties, political campaigns, and candidates?
2) Do you want to receive information from accredited news outlets, such as newsletters or magazines?
3) Do you want to be contacted or reachable otherwise via email by other citizens?

Quote from: Açafat del Val on July 20, 2020, 12:32:37 PM
(b) If/When this bill may be clarked, we make it clear to everyone that citizens will be mandatorily "opted in" only for truly important Government information (for example, the death of a beloved citizen or a DDoS attack on Witt);

(c) Newsletters like La C'hronica, however apolitical they may or may not be, be sent via a different mechanism than the Chancery List;

No. I believe that La C'hronica is a vital public service and categories B and C should not be separated. It is of vital state interest that every single citizen be kept up to date with what's happening in Talossa, even if they never read Wittenberg. I would say the main reason why inactive citizens stay inactive is that there's no way to "catch up" on events and issues. La C'hronica is that method and I will die in a ditch to make sure it goes out to every single citizen. AD is free to SPAM-trap it if he so desires.

In either case, I will support this bill and plan to vote for it.

I do think,however, that we should still introduce a separate bill that rewrites/consolidates the applicable parts of El Lexhatx. I guess it's another thing to add to my growing list...

And again...

Quote1) Do you want to receive information about or from elections, political parties, political campaigns, and candidates?
2) Do you want to receive information from accredited news outlets, such as newsletters or magazines?
3) Do you want to be contacted or reachable otherwise via email by other citizens?

I would feel more comfortable with this bill if the second requirement were modified to the effect of:

"Such communication may not include publicity for, or any other business pertaining to, any political party or candidate for election, or advocate for or against any ideology, political position, or legislation."

^^^ sounds reasonable, let me think on it

ETA: okay, cool