Wittenberg

Do you like the fact that Talossa is a Monarchy? Do you support a bicameral legislature? Do you think the FreeDems needs some opposition to keep them in check? If so, the League of Centre Conservatives is the party for you.

The LCC will be holding an election April 12-19 to determine who will be leading the LCC into the 56th Cosa election (spoiler alert: it won't be me), so now is a great time to get involved. To do so, send me a message.

I would hearby wish to submit my candidature for the position of party leader.

Dark have been my dreams of late, the outside world seems grimmer than before. I used to think of talossa as a safe harbor of fun an whimsy. With a King that was a kind, interesting and benevolent.

Now we have a government that claims to be acting in our interests, yet is tearing apart our nation, both emotionally and practically. If elected I will be engaging in discussion with the free democrats, I will call them out where I see it. However I am very much done with the protracted arguments driving this nation aprt, I am very much done. I fear that down we will reach a untenable situation that will drive us apart for good.

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 08, 2021, 03:26:18 PM
Now we have a government that claims to be acting in our interests, yet is tearing apart our nation, both emotionally and practically... I am very much done with the protracted arguments driving this nation aprt

With respect, Txosuè, this is the argument you've made about Talossa all the time I've know you - that it is Free Democrat politics that are "tearing the country apart", while the opposition to such policies is blameless and entirely justified. That one side is responsible when the other side gets mean. It's never been true; and right now, Talossa has been less argumentative and more polite in the last Cosă term than in most of our lifetimes.

As long as I've been involved, Talossan conservatives have claimed that Republican or reform-monarchist ideas are hurtful and upsetting and should not be allowed. But now those who want change are a clear majority. The compromise reached with the former LCC leader would put the constitutional argument to bed for a Talossan generation. Anyone who really wants the arguments to stop - as opposed to "our side to win and people who disturb me to be excluded from Talossa" - will support it.

Long term citizens have felt so ostracised, belittled, silenced and canceled for their veiws and have since disengaged because they don't want to argue with people any more.

And now you claim that the majority now agree with you. Could it not be you have driven people away to a point the no longer wish to get involved with our policies because they are so disenfranchised with the entire process?

They may no longer be heard from but I will be their voice. I see them. If they wish to reach out to me my door as party leader will always be open.

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 08, 2021, 04:42:28 PM
Long term citizens have felt so ostracised, belittled, silenced and canceled for their veiws

Oh dear God. This is just the kind of discourse we don't need in Talossa (https://www.newstatesman.com/science-tech/2020/07/cancel-culture-does-not-exist).

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGji5uCWsAABeK6.jpg)

And this is where this conversation with you ends, with you using a false equivalency, hooking onto one word (disregarding everything else I have said) and acting like your the victim here and I'm not going to rise to it. Good day.

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 08, 2021, 04:42:28 PM
Long term citizens have felt so ostracised, belittled, silenced and canceled for their veiws and have since disengaged because they don't want to argue with people any more.

And now you claim that the majority now agree with you. Could it not be you have driven people away to a point the no longer wish to get involved with our policies because they are so disenfranchised with the entire process?

They may no longer be heard from but I will be their voice. I see them. If they wish to reach out to me my door as party leader will always be open.

No, people think being challenged means they're being silenced, or the new four-letter word to describe it, "cancelled." This is nonsense. People are choosing to leave because they lost their power on Talossa, and now you're just gaslighting.

Also, you're not their hero; you're not their advocate; and you're not going to gaslight your way to being the victim.

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 08, 2021, 03:26:18 PM
I would hearby wish to submit my candidature for the position of party leader.

Dark have been my dreams of late, the outside world seems grimmer than before. I used to think of talossa as a safe harbor of fun an whimsy. With a King that was a kind, interesting and benevolent.

Now we have a government that claims to be acting in our interests, yet is tearing apart our nation, both emotionally and practically. If elected I will be engaging in discussion with the free democrats, I will call them out where I see it. However I am very much done with the protracted arguments driving this nation aprt, I am very much done. I fear that down we will reach a untenable situation that will drive us apart for good.

The talossan equivalent of those who stormed the Capitol on January 6th right here on display. We have our own tea party!

+1 derivativist
0 Peculiarist

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 08, 2021, 03:26:18 PM
I would hearby wish to submit my candidature for the position of party leader.

Dark have been my dreams of late, the outside world seems grimmer than before. I used to think of talossa as a safe harbor of fun an whimsy. With a King that was a kind, interesting and benevolent.

Now we have a government that claims to be acting in our interests, yet is tearing apart our nation, both emotionally and practically. If elected I will be engaging in discussion with the free democrats, I will call them out where I see it. However I am very much done with the protracted arguments driving this nation aprt, I am very much done. I fear that down we will reach a untenable situation that will drive us apart for good.

Nice prose. Take a look at the last Clark and see who voted and didn't. It seems to me that the FreeDems stepped up to do the work when the opposition just vanished.

[Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù:]

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 08, 2021, 04:56:56 PM

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 08, 2021, 04:42:28 PM
Long term citizens have felt so ostracised, belittled, silenced and canceled for their veiws

[Miestrâ:] Oh dear God. This is just the kind of discourse we don't need in Talossa (https://www.newstatesman.com/science-tech/2020/07/cancel-culture-does-not-exist).

If there is anything our King has proven over sixteen years of Talossanity, it's he's as strong as a lion and can speak for himself.  It's actually one of the things I very much like about him.  There have been moments where his inplacable and unphasable presence on the Throne of Talossa has been decisive and as someone put it some time ago in a different context, 'reassuring'.

John has not been silenced.  And he has not been 'cancelled'.  The present King of Talossa has chosen to remain silent, using the active @AlexanderDavinescu as a long-term proxy-monarch for the foreseeable future.  By doing so, John has opened the floodgates of criticism, the dehereditization of the monarchy, and possibly an early end to his reign.

As I have said before, he has established himself to be in good health and relatively crisis-free. 

In good conscience, therefore, we do not need to offer the King our thoughts and prayers for a specific set of circumstances and on his behalf, but instead can and must ask questions as to why the perpetually-inactive King of Talossa does not abdicate the Throne for someone - anyone - who actually cares to be active in doing Talossa while not relying on a long-term Regent and who has given the country no transparency in how long this regency will continue.

Quote from: GV on April 08, 2021, 11:33:25 PM
[Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù:]

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 08, 2021, 04:56:56 PM

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 08, 2021, 04:42:28 PM
Long term citizens have felt so ostracised, belittled, silenced and canceled for their veiws

[Miestrâ:] Oh dear God. This is just the kind of discourse we don't need in Talossa (https://www.newstatesman.com/science-tech/2020/07/cancel-culture-does-not-exist).

If there is anything our King has proven over sixteen years of Talossanity, it's he's as strong as a lion and can speak for himself.  It's actually one of the things I very much like about him.  There have been moments where his inplacable and unphasable presence on the Throne of Talossa has been decisive and as someone put it some time ago in a different context, 'reassuring'.

John has not been silenced.  And he has not been 'cancelled'.  The present King of Talossa has chosen to remain silent, using the active @AlexanderDavinescu as a long-term proxy-monarch for the foreseeable future.  By doing so, John has opened the floodgates of criticism, the dehereditization of the monarchy, and possibly an early end to his reign.

As I have said before, he has established himself to be in good health and relatively crisis-free. 

In good conscience, therefore, we do not need to offer the King our thoughts and prayers for a specific set of circumstances and on his behalf, but instead can and must ask questions as to why the perpetually-inactive King of Talossa does not abdicate the Throne for someone - anyone - who actually cares to be active in doing Talossa while not relying on a long-term Regent and who has given the country no transparency in how long this regency will continue.

... I haven't even mentioned the king? If he wants a rest that's his right. If he wishes to. I am well aware he can talk for himself. I dont understand how on earth you got the above from what I said?

If John is not well, we need someone to say, "John is not well.", and he will receive from me and all Talossa all the support in the world.

It is not lost on me he went inactive at about the same time the monarchy was de-hereditized by a vote of 2-1 in referendum.  It is also not lost on me he appointed AD as Regent-without-end-amen only after I publicly called on the King to give clarity to his absence.

We look forward to his immediate return to his once-normal level of Talossan activity and attention.

I have no insider knowledge for you, however again we are all entitled as citzans of talossa to prioritize or extra talossa activities should we see fit as we must respect each other in that.

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 09, 2021, 07:48:15 AM
I have no insider knowledge for you, however again we are all entitled as citzans of talossa to prioritize or extra talossa activities should we see fit as we must respect each other in that.

That's not what he's doing. He's virtually abdicated without even so much as a cursory explanation or eta on return. But even setting that aside, if Talossan want to keep the monarchy as is, they could have voted for that (anonymously in fact thanks to those radicals in the Free Democrats). If you're going to take on some great defender role, at least bother to get your facts right.

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 09, 2021, 07:48:15 AM
I have no insider knowledge for you, however again we are all entitled as citzans of talossa to prioritize or extra talossa activities should we see fit as we must respect each other in that.

Not when he is well and is monarch.  If I can go incommunicado for one week as PM (way back when) and have the country up in arms, we can get up-in-arms over King John's rest and relaxation.

From my perspective my facts are correct. We have had a drop off activity from long term citizens of talossa. Disenfranchisement is often cited as the reason. As leader I will attempt to reach out to these citzans to hopefully bring them back into the fold. If your having a mental health brake from talossa that is perfectly acceptable, which is as I have already said, applies to everyone. I myself required this in recent times for medical reasons. I see the referendum as what it was constently spouted as, non legally binding and of people currently active. That currently active majority is mostly republicans because more monarchist and conservatives have been driven away by aggressive retoric. Shout at all the people that disagree with you untill your the only one left in the room, then elect yourself president as you have the majority.

As has been said this is a leadership 'election' and I welcome any of my fellow LCC members to also run for the position. I don't wish to argue with them, I wish to build each other up.

Quote from: GV on April 09, 2021, 08:42:53 AM

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 09, 2021, 07:48:15 AM
I have no insider knowledge for you, however again we are all entitled as citzans of talossa to prioritize or extra talossa activities should we see fit as we must respect each other in that.

Not when he is well and is monarch.  If I can go incommunicado for one week as PM (way back when) and have the country up in arms, we can get up-in-arms over King John's rest and relaxation.

Who are you to talk of his health? Maybe he does not see talossa a safe space anymore for him to divulge his personal, private information. That can include his health (both physical and mental),his personal circumstances,  his professional work life balance. If he wishes not to disclose that information it is his prerogative.

We already have had citzans of talossa been the subject of targeted attack on this right to a private life though the contacting of someone's manager at work, a threat to there professional livelihood.

When I first joined talossa back in 2014 I never dreamt of such a thing occurring. This was a fun, vibrant place as you have prointed out in your previous post. We should not attack each other to a point where people have to re-evaluate weather continued engagement could put there professional lives at such a risk.

We have rights to our own privacy and no law in talossa will and shall never infringe that right.

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 09, 2021, 09:10:21 AM

Quote from: GV on April 09, 2021, 08:42:53 AM

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 09, 2021, 07:48:15 AM
I have no insider knowledge for you, however again we are all entitled as citzans of talossa to prioritize or extra talossa activities should we see fit as we must respect each other in that.

Not when he is well and is monarch.  If I can go incommunicado for one week as PM (way back when) and have the country up in arms, we can get up-in-arms over King John's rest and relaxation.

Who are you to talk of his health? Maybe he does not see talossa a safe space anymore for him to divulge his personal, private information. That can include his health (both physical and mental),his personal circumstances,  his professional work life balance. If he wishes not to disclose that information it is his prerogative.

We already have had citzans of talossa been the subject of targeted attack on this right to a private life though the contacting of someone's manager at work, a threat to there professional livelihood.

When I first joined talossa back in 2014 I never dreamt of such a thing occurring. This was a fun, vibrant place as you have prointed out in your previous post. We should not attack each other to a point where people have to re-evaluate weather continued engagement could put there professional lives at such a risk.

We have rights to our own privacy and no law in talossa will and shall never infringe that right.

Back when I joined in 2006, the monarchist were happy because they were in power. Talossa was a one-party state. Then came reunison and the prevailing wisdom in the RUMP was that the republicans would be contained. But as they grew in power, or rather, as the opposition to the one-party state grew and forced the RUMP from power, the rhetoric overtly changed to, "if another party gets in power; I'm going inactive/renouncing etc." This was certainly what happened with Mick (an avowed monarchist I still respect). Hooly jumped ship because his power waned and then he did some shady stuff and did not want to answer for it before Talossan courts. Others have disappeared because they no longer have the power the hardcore monarchist once had.  I can go through and archive my old gmail conversations with several RUMPers and do a massive document dump. I was there; you were not.

This is NOT about hateful rhetoric.  This is not about heated debate.  That is pure gaslighting and revisionism on your part to obfuscate a patent ad hominem attack on republicanism.  The reality is that minds had already been made that if republicanism actually stood a chance; or a weakened monarchy were possible; or the Talossan conservatives were too weak, then people would leave Talossa because, simply, they did not want to be in the minority EVER. The fact that you're trying to spin this as anything else underscores that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Finally, you have the audacity to say to GV, "Who are you to talk of his health?" and then speculate on John's snowflakery. The King does not get to play private citizen and then control the fate of Talossa at whim. The monarch is an organ of the State, something your lot is keen to perpetuate. Organs of the State are treated as that--if the Ziu and the Seneschal and the Cort and any other part of the State is subject to scrutiny, the King does not get to hide behind, "wahhhh you are being mean to me" or "that's personal; you're not entitled to that." Actually, because he is an organ of the State, he has put his entire life under scrutiny and availed it to public question. You don't get to act offended because we're doing exactly what gets done to every other part of the State to John.  The fact is, you're defending cowardice out of some Talossan daddy issues, and it's intolerable. Talossa was technically more vibrant in 2006 when it was a one-party state, because we could do things like "silly walks" and "funny hats" and talk about beer, you know, when it was the virtual man-cave for a bunch of cis-het white guys.

Quote from: Viteu on April 09, 2021, 11:46:42 AM
as the opposition to the one-party state grew and forced the RUMP from power, the rhetoric overtly changed to, "if another party gets in power; I'm going inactive/renouncing etc." This was certainly what happened with Mick (an avowed monarchist I still respect). Hooly jumped ship because his power waned and then he did some shady stuff and did not want to answer for it before Talossan courts. Others have disappeared because they no longer have the power the hardcore monarchist once had.

Can I just, in this context, point out that one of the people referred to above actively threatened that, if anything but Status Quo won the recent referendum, he would renounce. Thankfully, he didn't carry through on his threat, but that really is the mentality to which we refer - cut your nose off to spite your face, then accuse the opposing part of having slashed you.

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 09, 2021, 08:55:38 AM
From my perspective my facts are correct. We have had a drop off activity from long term citizens of talossa. Disenfranchisement is often cited as the reason.

No it's not. Because no-one has been disenfranchised.

QuoteThat currently active majority is mostly republicans because more monarchist and conservatives have been driven away by aggressive retoric.

No they haven't, because there has been no aggressive rhetoric, and the proof of this is you can't name any. Certain monarchists are less active because they don't want to live in a country where they're not in control, as V rightfully said. Others, such as the Regent and Sir Cresti, have continued to contribute, and I really appreciate that.

Trying to spin firm but courteous political opposition as aggression, victimisation or "bullying" is a deplorable move which we see all the time in US/UK conservative politics, and it has no place here.

So you want the republic back again? As noted... How well did that do? You where down to 20 members and no activity? And you want to return to that? You returned to the fold to mold the kingdom back to your own image, doing away with king and regent, doing away with active citzans (perticulely those who disagree with you) and to hell with everything else. The republic didn't work or you would have let go, moved on and left the monarchy in the dust, but you didn't and apprently you couldn't let go because of what King Ben did to you. You Brought that attitude back with you, how dare king John succeed where you failed, how dare he re-envigarate the kingdom with out you, how dare he not call you back to the fold knowing that you would most likely hate him because you hate what he stands for, he has succeeded where Ben failed and you hate him for it. Plain and simple.


I already want withdraw my candidature, because I already can't stand for what I believe him without getting attacked form all angles. Even our Regent had to take a step back when you and he agruged to the point that there was no going back, he returned.

Id even go so far and renounce my citzanship too, but what would that change? Another monarchist run out of town who dared to raise his head. Oh no I'm staying. I brought myself a popcorn machine.

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 09, 2021, 03:35:45 PM
So you want the republic back again? As noted... How well did that do? You where down to 20 members and no activity? And you want to return to that? You returned to the fold to mold the kingdom back to your own image, doing away with king and regent, doing away with active citzans (perticulely those who disagree with you) and to hell with everything else. The republic didn't work or you would have let go, moved on and left the monarchy in the dust, but you didn't and apprently you couldn't let go because of what King Ben did to you. You Brought that attitude back with you, how dare king John succeed where you failed, how dare he re-envigarate the kingdom with out you, how dare he not call you back to the fold knowing that you would most likely hate him because you hate what he stands for, he has succeeded where Ben failed and you hate him for it. Plain and simple.


I already want withdraw my candidature, because I already can't stand for what I believe him without getting attacked form all angles. Even our Regent had to take a step back when you and he agruged to the point that there was no going back, he returned.

Id even go so far and renounce my citzanship too, but what would that change? Another monarchist run out of town who dared to raise his head. Oh no I'm staying. I brought myself a popcorn machine.

Conversely, you want a country where the monarch is beyond reproach and to question him to is to question the essence of the country. How did that work out last time? Correlation always implies causation, right?

If your fellow monarchists are not jumping in to defend you or take up the cause of monarchism, take it up with them.  If they want to blame the big bad republicans for their cowardice, then they never really saw Talossa as something worth fighting for.  But don't blame Miestra or others for setting the record straight. This is the function of politics in a vibrant democracy—you advocate for your position to move the needle from minority to majority. You may not win initially, and your appetite for change may be greater than others, but it's not your opponent's fault because people don't buy your position wholesale. You keep advocating; and you keep working to change minds.

You want to advocate monarchism? Fine. Do it. But don't misstate the political history behind the respective movements or pretend you can speak to the very real experiences many endured way before you even knew what Talossa was just to play the victim when you get checked.

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 09, 2021, 03:35:45 PM
So you want the republic back again? As noted... How well did that do? You where down to 20 members and no activity? And you want to return to that? You returned to the fold to mold the kingdom back to your own image, doing away with king and regent, doing away with active citzans (perticulely those who disagree with you) and to hell with everything else. The republic didn't work or you would have let go, moved on and left the monarchy in the dust, but you didn't and apprently you couldn't let go because of what King Ben did to you. You Brought that attitude back with you, how dare king John succeed where you failed, how dare he re-envigarate the kingdom with out you, how dare he not call you back to the fold knowing that you would most likely hate him because you hate what he stands for, he has succeeded where Ben failed and you hate him for it. Plain and simple.


I already want withdraw my candidature, because I already can't stand for what I believe him without getting attacked form all angles. Even our Regent had to take a step back when you and he agruged to the point that there was no going back, he returned.

Id even go so far and renounce my citzanship too, but what would that change? Another monarchist run out of town who dared to raise his head. Oh no I'm staying. I brought myself a popcorn machine.

I am sorry, but i feel like you have taken this whole thing out of proportion, both yourself and the other monarchists, From my own recollections of being a citizen of Talossa, the monarchist only started to leave once they were voted out of power, and a different ideology was starting to win elections, whislt i would not have begrudged some unhappiness there, what i do think is an issue is that there were alot of platitudes given by the other side, with no constructive debate around the issues, and no offering suggestions, or even forming a coherent opposition. Yes in politics, it is hard to loose, but that doesnt mean that you stop fighting for what you believe, and besides a strong stance on keeping the monarchy, there have been no suggestions, outside the compromise bill of late (which came from the referendum result) from your side on how best move Talossa forward, whilst tearing down what the Government has been doing in what our side belives to be the best for talossa.

All, i think our side is wanting, is for your side to stop playing the victim, grow up, and act reasonable, and be a true opposition, with plans, and ideas of your own, which will help move talossa forward, and create a good political debate again. Not the disillusioned self pity your side has had the past, how many years. Also dont blame us for your members dropping from Talossa, they were not bullied, or driven out, they left because they lost and couldn't deal with how things were changing, and couldnt come up with their own ideas of a platform to win over the voting public of Talossa. Which is THE JOB of an OPPOSITION, and isnt to put their head in the sand and pretend that nothing has changed. As things have, especially with the recent actions of the King, and the divisive choice of regent.

Please do not take this as a personal attack for yourself or your side of the political spectrum, as it isnt meant to be, i am only intending this to be constructive criticism, and i hope that you take the lessons in this as intended, and not on attack on what you believe, as i do not want politics to revert to the mud slinging it has been for so long, but to actually be a constructive debate, but that means that you have to accept your ideas might loose, and then adapt with the times, and not get stuck in the past, and giving up on the political discourse of Talossa. as that is the true cancer of Talossan politics, giving up on it just because what you want doesn't come to pass, instead of sticking around to fight your corner, in a principles and respectful manor. i cant say that we have been completely clean in our conduct of politics, but we come up with ideas all the time, and do our best, sometimes they work, sometimes they dont, that is politics, we dont Give up, we continue the fight to make talossa a great place to be, and that drive, is what the opposition has lost from my persepctive.

Disagreements and losses are bound to happen, but that does not translate to personal attacks, it just means we disagree, and try to persuade other of why we believe our actions are right, and to take the loss personally, ill becomes us as a country.

We are all part of a unified Talossa right now, and it is upto us to step upto the place and work out how to keep both sides in an arrangement they can live with, which means communication and working together, even if that is through the discourse of debates. But that also means that both sides have to come to find common ground, and i believe the compromise is that. And if your side is unwilling to accept that something needs to change for talossa to move forward and thrive, and digging you head in the sand, then what is any of us even doing here?

Anyway sorry for the long, not massively coherent rant, these are jsut my current thoughts about the discussion in this thread right now.

Quote from: Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on April 09, 2021, 05:11:02 PM

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 09, 2021, 03:35:45 PM
So you want the republic back again? As noted... How well did that do? You where down to 20 members and no activity? And you want to return to that? You returned to the fold to mold the kingdom back to your own image, doing away with king and regent, doing away with active citzans (perticulely those who disagree with you) and to hell with everything else. The republic didn't work or you would have let go, moved on and left the monarchy in the dust, but you didn't and apprently you couldn't let go because of what King Ben did to you. You Brought that attitude back with you, how dare king John succeed where you failed, how dare he re-envigarate the kingdom with out you, how dare he not call you back to the fold knowing that you would most likely hate him because you hate what he stands for, he has succeeded where Ben failed and you hate him for it. Plain and simple.


I already want withdraw my candidature, because I already can't stand for what I believe him without getting attacked form all angles. Even our Regent had to take a step back when you and he agruged to the point that there was no going back, he returned.

Id even go so far and renounce my citzanship too, but what would that change? Another monarchist run out of town who dared to raise his head. Oh no I'm staying. I brought myself a popcorn machine.

I am sorry, but i feel like you have taken this whole thing out of proportion, both yourself and the other monarchists, From my own recollections of being a citizen of Talossa, the monarchist only started to leave once they were voted out of power, and a different ideology was starting to win elections, whislt i would not have begrudged some unhappiness there, what i do think is an issue is that there were alot of platitudes given by the other side, with no constructive debate around the issues, and no offering suggestions, or even forming a coherent opposition. Yes in politics, it is hard to loose, but that doesnt mean that you stop fighting for what you believe, and besides a strong stance on keeping the monarchy, there have been no suggestions, outside the compromise bill of late (which came from the referendum result) from your side on how best move Talossa forward, whilst tearing down what the Government has been doing in what our side belives to be the best for talossa.

All, i think our side is wanting, is for your side to stop playing the victim, grow up, and act reasonable, and be a true opposition, with plans, and ideas of your own, which will help move talossa forward, and create a good political debate again. Not the disillusioned self pity your side has had the past, how many years. Also dont blame us for your members dropping from Talossa, they were not bullied, or driven out, they left because they lost and couldn't deal with how things were changing, and couldnt come up with their own ideas of a platform to win over the voting public of Talossa. Which is THE JOB of an OPPOSITION, and isnt to put their head in the sand and pretend that nothing has changed. As things have, especially with the recent actions of the King, and the divisive choice of regent.

Please do not take this as a personal attack for yourself or your side of the political spectrum, as it isnt meant to be, i am only intending this to be constructive criticism, and i hope that you take the lessons in this as intended, and not on attack on what you believe, as i do not want politics to revert to the mud slinging it has been for so long, but to actually be a constructive debate, but that means that you have to accept your ideas might loose, and then adapt with the times, and not get stuck in the past, and giving up on the political discourse of Talossa. as that is the true cancer of Talossan politics, giving up on it just because what you want doesn't come to pass, instead of sticking around to fight your corner, in a principles and respectful manor. i cant say that we have been completely clean in our conduct of politics, but we come up with ideas all the time, and do our best, sometimes they work, sometimes they dont, that is politics, we dont Give up, we continue the fight to make talossa a great place to be, and that drive, is what the opposition has lost from my persepctive.

Disagreements and losses are bound to happen, but that does not translate to personal attacks, it just means we disagree, and try to persuade other of why we believe our actions are right, and to take the loss personally, ill becomes us as a country.

We are all part of a unified Talossa right now, and it is upto us to step upto the place and work out how to keep both sides in an arrangement they can live with, which means communication and working together, even if that is through the discourse of debates. But that also means that both sides have to come to find common ground, and i believe the compromise is that. And if your side is unwilling to accept that something needs to change for talossa to move forward and thrive, and digging you head in the sand, then what is any of us even doing here?

Anyway sorry for the long, not massively coherent rant, these are jsut my current thoughts about the discussion in this thread right now.

You have been by far the most coherent today.

As I said I'm not going anywhere.

Thank you for your comment as I do appreciate your feedback.

Ok let's try this again shall we.

I'm sick of of mudslinging, we all need to stop. How do we go about this? And by this, not a temporary truce, permanent change. It's not as simple as just you no... not, as at this point it's mostly unavoidable between our two camps.

Because we tried just not doing it and it ended up with me snarky comment and the gloves where of again.

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 09, 2021, 03:35:45 PM
So you want the republic back again?

I and (the majority of) the other Free Democrats want the Historic Compromise, as contained in 55RZ21 - a King, up for re-election every 7 years. The LCC seem to have thrown their former leader, Senator Plätschisch, overboard because of his support for that. But a compromise is the only way to put an end to these arguments for a significant number of years.

If you really want these arguments to stop (for most people - of course there will remain die-hard Republicans and die-hard Monarchists, both minorities), let's all support the compromise.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 09, 2021, 06:15:27 PM

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 09, 2021, 03:35:45 PM
So you want the republic back again?

I and (the majority of) the other Free Democrats want the Historic Compromise, as contained in 55RZ21 - a King, up for re-election every 7 years. The LCC seem to have thrown their former leader, Senator Plätschisch, overboard because of his support for that. But a compromise is the only way to put an end to these arguments for a significant number of years.

If you really want these arguments to stop (for most people - of course there will remain die-hard Republicans and die-hard Monarchists, both minorities), let's all support the compromise.

There is more to the party than meets the eye.
Senator Plätschisch very much stood down of his own accord, however we are as of this moment moving the party lines in time before the next election.

The Great compromise is indeed so momentous that it does need to be considered. Fundamentally I want the mudslinging to stop, if that wasn't evendent from my first post then I do apologize, but you must surely understand that this discussion of monarchy Vs republic has gone on so long and been at the heart of this quagmire that we are all still a little wounded by it all.

If elected party leader, I would wish to extend the olive branch iin the form of cross party talks. Would that be agreeable to you?

When I look at 2005-2011 Talossa, and as I've said elsewhere, I see a Kingdom with excitement, with purpose, and a Kingdom which for the first time since, really, the late 1980s was genuinely having fun.  It was like the Republic in its first months: the canvass was blank, Ben was gone, and the world was ours to make in our own image.

Talossa comes and goes and ebbs and flows.  This has been mainly due to the answer to the question: 'Is there a new way for Talossa to evolve?'.  In the mid-to-late 1980s, there was: JJ was a brilliant political foil for Ben, Talossan National News was at its peak, and the possibility of a change in monarch to another monarch had never been tried before. 

Ben loved, I think, running Talossa from behind-the-curtain.  This, I think, is why we had Kings Robert II and Floretzia in the first place.  The late Robert II was a true puppet (though he really did exist as a living human) and Flo (by all accounts a vivacious and really nice person) in the end only took the gig because she liked Ben and wanted to help him out. 

What I'm saying is: libraryoftalossa.com has everything everyone needs (save language stuff, alas - I need to fix this) to do Talossa and learn about our past.  What we also need re-learn in Talossa is the concept of 'self-initiative' and 'self-starter'.

Here is a perfect example: to the College of Arms, I submitted a draft personal blazon.  BenArd has not been able to get to it, himself, and no-one else has stepped up to take the ball: getting a graphic image to me and giving me counsel as to how to better my rationale, blazon-values, and what-not.

My father and I had a discussion about Talossa this past week.  I made one thing clear to him: Talossa is important precisely because it is pointless and absurd.  In a world taking itself all-too-seriously with gender pronouns, 2nd Amendment rights, Trump vs. OBiden, a pandemic if left to its own devices would be bad enough to take down our hospital system, the most severe government reaction to a pandemic in the history of the world, and the fact WW3 could start at any moment, Talossa stands as a refuge of 'freedom, fun, and fairness' everyone can enjoy (to borrow from Ben's words).

What I'm saying to all you 'disenfranchised conservatives' is get involved again.  If you want the halcyon SCA-hippie days of 2005-2011 again, then ask the people to make it happen.  Defeat the Compromise at the polls (or the Ziu) with sound arguments. 

The only thing the Compromise is doing is putting periodic term-limits on the monarchy.  The monarchy is preserved, and when enacted, the seven-year term limit will hold 'Sleepy John' and future rogue-monarchs much worse than he ever thought about being to account.  What's wrong with that?

As to the lifetime appointment to the monarchy, we are all spoiled by the shining example of Britain's Queen Elizabeth II, who in the wake of Prince Philip's death I believe will not be long for this world.  Instead of thinking on Lilibet, let's think on a real King - a monarch of real compassion who loved and cared for the Irish people with a true Christian example - King Henry VIII. 

Or perhaps the proto-hippie Uncle David who as Edward VIII could have helped to Nazify the United Kingdom.  Bessie, thank you for everything.  Prince Charles will make a wonderful monarch.  ;-O

Get involved, people, or stay quiet and vote silently.  Talossa needs all of us.

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 09, 2021, 08:55:38 AM
From my perspective my facts are correct. We have had a drop off activity from long term citizens of talossa. Disenfranchisement is often cited as the reason. As leader I will attempt to reach out to these citzans to hopefully bring them back into the fold. If your having a mental health brake from talossa that is perfectly acceptable, which is as I have already said, applies to everyone. I myself required this in recent times for medical reasons. I see the referendum as what it was constently spouted as, non legally binding and of people currently active. That currently active majority is mostly republicans because more monarchist and conservatives have been driven away by aggressive retoric. Shout at all the people that disagree with you untill your the only one left in the room, then elect yourself president as you have the majority.

As has been said this is a leadership 'election' and I welcome any of my fellow LCC members to also run for the position. I don't wish to argue with them, I wish to build each other up.

I echo everything Miestrâ and Viteu say elsewhere in this thread.  Elsewhere on Witt, I have given a rudimentary summary political history of the Kingdom (from my perspective) since 1 June 2004.  Read it and learn.

Bear in mind, we went about putting the Compromise together in the right way.  Knowing we needed buy-in from the population in a profound way, we surveyed the populace by way of non-binding referendum with the promise what came from this referendum would be acted upon in some way.

Had the lifetime monarchy won out convincingly, the Compromise never would have existed.  This is not what happened.  As with Brexit in the United Kingdom, and even more than with Brexit, the people gave themselves a split-decision.  Brexit was 52-48.  The monarchy referendum of 2020 was much closer. 

In this, the people were clear: a reformed monarchy was the way to go.  Preserve Talossan tradition, and hold the sovereign accountable periodically while still giving them a long term and breathing room.  Thus, we have the Compromise.

Much of the opposition to the Compromise stems from personal affection for John Woolley and a desire to not curtail him in any way.  Well, with his faux-abdication and complete refusal to be transparent about his intentions for the monarchy as well as appoint in Alexander Davinescu the most offensive individual to the 'republican' side possible as Regent-for-Life, he has showed in a very benign fashion the modern Talossan monarchy can be abused.

The Compromise will pass the Ziu, putting the question to the people.  The people will answer this question.  The Convocation will then meet, and John will either be tossed out of the kingship or retained for seven years.  This is not only a referendum on the mechanics of monarchy, but I believe in the minds of many, it is a referendum on John's own leadership, especially since August of 2020, which is when his rest and relaxation began and when the monarchy was dehereditized.

No-one is attacking you, by the way.

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 09, 2021, 03:35:45 PM
So you want the republic back again? As noted... How well did that do? You where down to 20 members and no activity? And you want to return to that? You returned to the fold to mold the kingdom back to your own image, doing away with king and regent, doing away with active citzans (perticulely those who disagree with you) and to hell with everything else. The republic didn't work or you would have let go, moved on and left the monarchy in the dust, but you didn't and apprently you couldn't let go because of what King Ben did to you. You Brought that attitude back with you, how dare king John succeed where you failed, how dare he re-envigarate the kingdom with out you, how dare he not call you back to the fold knowing that you would most likely hate him because you hate what he stands for, he has succeeded where Ben failed and you hate him for it. Plain and simple.


I already want withdraw my candidature, because I already can't stand for what I believe him without getting attacked form all angles. Even our Regent had to take a step back when you and he agruged to the point that there was no going back, he returned.

Id even go so far and renounce my citzanship too, but what would that change? Another monarchist run out of town who dared to raise his head. Oh no I'm staying. I brought myself a popcorn machine.

The situation I may be inheriting is obviously not one that any monarchist would dream for, that why I feel we need to stop arguments and start talking.

Mud slinging, political point scoring and lack of transparency is the part of politics that has not only shaken the foundation of talossa, but our macro-nations the world over. However we have an opportunity here to show that we can change and be better, we only have to reach out and take it. We only have decades of of poltical trauma that we need to heal, where other countries have monolithic, entrenched and millenniam old political systems that could never truly be healed with meer words. We are still at a point where words can still make or brake. Let us begin to make something of our situation and talk this out.

I recognize this is a somewhat abrupt about face from yesterday, however I have had a change of heart and quite a vivid dream, that even Sigmund Freud could have explained it's meaning, since then.

Quote from: GV on April 10, 2021, 07:51:15 AM
I echo everything Miestrâ and Viteu say elsewhere in this thread.  Elsewhere on Witt, I have given a rudimentary summary political history of the Kingdom (from my perspective) since 1 June 2004.  Read it and learn.

Bear in mind, we went about putting the Compromise together in the right way.  Knowing we needed buy-in from the population in a profound way, we surveyed the populace by way of non-binding referendum with the promise what came from this referendum would be acted upon in some way.

Had the lifetime monarchy won out convincingly, the Compromise never would have existed.  This is not what happened.  As with Brexit in the United Kingdom, and even more than with Brexit, the people gave themselves a split-decision.  Brexit was 52-48.  The monarchy referendum of 2020 was much closer. 

In this, the people were clear: a reformed monarchy was the way to go.  Preserve Talossan tradition, and hold the sovereign accountable periodically while still giving them a long term and breathing room.  Thus, we have the Compromise.

Much of the opposition to the Compromise stems from personal affection for John Woolley and a desire to not curtail him in any way.  Well, with his faux-abdication and complete refusal to be transparent about his intentions for the monarchy as well as appoint in Alexander Davinescu the most offensive individual to the 'republican' side possible as Regent-for-Life, he has showed in a very benign fashion the modern Talossan monarchy can be abused.

The Compromise will pass the Ziu, putting the question to the people.  The people will answer this question.  The Convocation will then meet, and John will either be tossed out of the kingship or retained for seven years.  This is not only a referendum on the mechanics of monarchy, but I believe in the minds of many, it is a referendum on John's own leadership, especially since August of 2020, which is when his rest and relaxation began and when the monarchy was dehereditized.

No-one is attacking you, by the way.

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 09, 2021, 03:35:45 PM
So you want the republic back again? As noted... How well did that do? You where down to 20 members and no activity? And you want to return to that? You returned to the fold to mold the kingdom back to your own image, doing away with king and regent, doing away with active citzans (perticulely those who disagree with you) and to hell with everything else. The republic didn't work or you would have let go, moved on and left the monarchy in the dust, but you didn't and apprently you couldn't let go because of what King Ben did to you. You Brought that attitude back with you, how dare king John succeed where you failed, how dare he re-envigarate the kingdom with out you, how dare he not call you back to the fold knowing that you would most likely hate him because you hate what he stands for, he has succeeded where Ben failed and you hate him for it. Plain and simple.


I already want withdraw my candidature, because I already can't stand for what I believe him without getting attacked form all angles. Even our Regent had to take a step back when you and he agruged to the point that there was no going back, he returned.

Id even go so far and renounce my citzanship too, but what would that change? Another monarchist run out of town who dared to raise his head. Oh no I'm staying. I brought myself a popcorn machine.

The strategy is not to have a monarch, but a 7 year president with veto powers, who can be re-elected, accomplished by the same techniques outlined in http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~unger/articles/irv.html (see "some electoral suprises" ) while a simple "do you want a hereditary King or Queen - yes or no" was diluted by shaded options to confuse the issue and split the vote.
Fait accompli.

Good or bad, a King or Queen is outside the bounds of election, (similar to a Justice of the Supreme Court in the US) after their initial appointment, until their demise or resignation.  This is fundamental concept.

Quote from: xpb on April 10, 2021, 10:27:02 AM
accomplished by the same techniques outlined in http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~unger/articles/irv.html (see "some electoral suprises" ) while a simple "do you want a hereditary King or Queen - yes or no" was diluted by shaded options to confuse the issue and split the vote.
Fait accompli.

This characterisation of the referendum is just as disingenuous and fallacious as the first time you brought it up. No vote was split, nothing was diluted. The pro-hereditary camp lost, end of story.

As I was not leader of the opposition at the time I was not in a position to attempt to change the policy and I'm not going to retred that ground (yes yes I was a MC however I kept my promise as Speaker of the Cosa an attempt of impartiality). Fresh start. Let us begin.

Quote
The strategy is not to have a monarch, but a 7 year president with veto powers, who can be re-elected, accomplished by the same techniques outlined in http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~unger/articles/irv.html (see "some electoral suprises" ) while a simple "do you want a hereditary King or Queen - yes or no" was diluted by shaded options to confuse the issue and split the vote.
Fait accompli.

Good or bad, a King or Queen is outside the bounds of election, (similar to a Justice of the Supreme Court in the US) after their initial appointment, until their demise or resignation.  This is fundamental concept.

This fundamental concept was Ben Madison's greatest weapon against Kane Gruber in 2004. 

Quote from: GV on April 10, 2021, 02:28:17 PM

Quote
The strategy is not to have a monarch, but a 7 year president with veto powers, who can be re-elected, accomplished by the same techniques outlined in http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~unger/articles/irv.html (see "some electoral suprises" ) while a simple "do you want a hereditary King or Queen - yes or no" was diluted by shaded options to confuse the issue and split the vote.
Fait accompli.

Good or bad, a King or Queen is outside the bounds of election, (similar to a Justice of the Supreme Court in the US) after their initial appointment, until their demise or resignation.  This is fundamental concept.

This fundamental concept was Ben Madison's greatest weapon against Kane Gruber in 2004.

Although this is interesting and I have been educating myself on the topic, could we now get back to the leadership election.
There's a whole wide Witt to discuss upon this :)

Quote from: Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù on April 10, 2021, 02:56:32 PM

Quote from: GV on April 10, 2021, 02:28:17 PM

Quote
The strategy is not to have a monarch, but a 7 year president with veto powers, who can be re-elected, accomplished by the same techniques outlined in http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~unger/articles/irv.html (see "some electoral suprises" ) while a simple "do you want a hereditary King or Queen - yes or no" was diluted by shaded options to confuse the issue and split the vote.
Fait accompli.

Good or bad, a King or Queen is outside the bounds of election, (similar to a Justice of the Supreme Court in the US) after their initial appointment, until their demise or resignation.  This is fundamental concept.

This fundamental concept was Ben Madison's greatest weapon against Kane Gruber in 2004.

Although this is interesting and I have been educating myself on the topic, could we now get back to the leadership election.
There's a whole wide Witt to discuss upon this :)

The election is happening on our Facebook page; this was just an announcement

Okay, starting from scratch.

What upset me about Txosuè's recent speeches was not the politics so much as the ad hominem attacks on my side of politics. It's sadly common for me to be told by Talossan conservatives that, even when reformists and republicans win elections and votes, it is illegitimate because conservatives are "bullied", "ostracised", "disenfranchised" or even "cancelled". The question is whether it is fair for them to feel this way, or whether it is just a way to make people feel bad (and thus demobilise them) for winning support for policies they oppose.

This kind of thing happens in US politics a lot these days, and it's in bad faith - there is no way that progressives can "make conservatives feel less bullied" but complete political surrender. There is no way that we can phrase our politics less confrontationally, because it is not the vehemence of the views that they're objecting to, it's the views themselves, which they consider illegitimate. Same in Talossa - there is no way that I can make conservatives like me apart from giving up my political project, or of course becoming inactive altogether, as the Regent kindly pointed out. If this is true - if the monarchy cannot be questioned, if reform proposals cannot even be considered because it hurts conservatives in the feels - then Talossa is not a democracy. And most of us will quit if that's the case.

Does anyone want a new National Schism, for a new Republic to split from the Kingdom? Anyone? Because that's where we're going if we can't have open and respectful political debate which ends up in a compromise that perhaps no-one really likes, but everyone can live with. The results of the referendum show a knife-edge division between Status Quo and Republic. We need a compromise between the two blocs, because neither bloc can be defeated and excluded without a new National Schism. 55RZ21 was created in "cross-party talks" between the FreeDems and the old LCC leadership to be precisely that compromise.

What really crossed the line was Txosuè's accusation that I am motivated by "hatred" for King John. As GV says, this is precisely the kind of thing that King Robert used to say - that his opponents were motivated by "hate" rather than political principle, and therefore they were not true Talossans, that no compromise was possible or admissible, and any means were necessary to defeat, punish and exclude them. This is the language of demonisation, of creeping fascism, of turning political debates into contests of Good vs. Evil where the opposition needs to be destroyed rather than defeated. Please never use it again.

I want these endless constitutional debates to end in a solution that both major blocs can accept, if not fall in love with, for a generation to come - something like the Belfast Agreement arrangements in the North of Ireland. If the incoming LCC leadership agrees to support the Historic Compromise, then that reduces the possibility of a really nasty fight over this issue in the incoming election (and reduces the incentive for the Regent to veto). That is the Free Democrats' first proposal re: new "cross-party talks".

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on April 10, 2021, 10:38:07 AM

Quote from: xpb on April 10, 2021, 10:27:02 AM
accomplished by the same techniques outlined in http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~unger/articles/irv.html (see "some electoral suprises" ) while a simple "do you want a hereditary King or Queen - yes or no" was diluted by shaded options to confuse the issue and split the vote.
Fait accompli.

This characterisation of the referendum is just as disingenuous and fallacious as the first time you brought it up. No vote was split, nothing was diluted. The pro-hereditary camp lost, end of story.

This isn't quite right, The principle of hereditary monarchy was lost with the passage of 54RZ28 (http://www.talossa.ca/files/bills.php?cosa=54&bill=28). The current debate is over periodic renewal of the King's mandate.

Some people are going to die in a ditch that "King" means "King for life". Other people are going to die in a ditch about tossing out "King" in favour of "President". The historic compromise of 55RZ21 is not meant to placate either extreme, but the vast majority in between. I suppose someone has to be the Talossan equivalent of the north of Ireland's "loyalists" and "rejectionist republicans". Just lay off the bombs, guys.

My apologies.

I shouldn't have commented in the discussions of this party to which I have never been a member.

I suppose I am increasingly regretful about my participation in reunison - but then again I suppose no good deed goes unpunished.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 10, 2021, 03:52:44 PM

I want these endless constitutional debates to end in a solution that both major blocs can accept, if not fall in love with, for a generation to come - something like the Belfast Agreement arrangements in the North of Ireland. If the incoming LCC leadership agrees to support the Historic Compromise, then that reduces the possibility of a really nasty fight over this issue in the incoming election (and reduces the incentive for the Regent to veto). That is the Free Democrats' first proposal re: new "cross-party talks".

It appears the that we do have common ground then. I want to put this debate to bed and draw the line under this entire thing.

Quote from: GV on April 10, 2021, 07:51:15 AM
...Had the lifetime monarchy won out convincingly, the Compromise never would have existed.  This is not what happened.  As with Brexit in the United Kingdom, and even more than with Brexit, the people gave themselves a split-decision.  Brexit was 52-48.  The monarchy referendum of 2020 was much closer. 
...

As an aside: Brexit is a ****ing disaster. Total ****ing disaster  :( :( :(

Quote from: Ián Tamorán S.H. on April 15, 2021, 05:34:35 AM

Quote from: GV on April 10, 2021, 07:51:15 AM
...Had the lifetime monarchy won out convincingly, the Compromise never would have existed.  This is not what happened.  As with Brexit in the United Kingdom, and even more than with Brexit, the people gave themselves a split-decision.  Brexit was 52-48.  The monarchy referendum of 2020 was much closer. 
...

As an aside: Brexit is a ****ing disaster. Total ****ing disaster  :( :( :(

I know, I know...  :-(  Two different situations entirely, but I agree with you re Brexit.