Wittenberg

I'd like to request a change of province. I have flown the coop from rural Middle Tennessee to the bustling cities of the San Francisco Bay Area. I believe I'll be in the Province of Maricopa now. I'd be happy to update any and all information with the office of the Secretary of State.

Quote from: Françal I. Lux on May 16, 2021, 01:47:21 AM
I'd like to request a change of province. I have flown the coop from rural Middle Tennessee to the bustling cities of the San Francisco Bay Area. I believe I'll be in the Province of Maricopa now. I'd be happy to update any and all information with the office of the Secretary of State.

Done. Welcome to Maricopa.

Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on May 16, 2021, 10:20:34 AM

Quote from: Françal I. Lux on May 16, 2021, 01:47:21 AM
I'd like to request a change of province. I have flown the coop from rural Middle Tennessee to the bustling cities of the San Francisco Bay Area. I believe I'll be in the Province of Maricopa now. I'd be happy to update any and all information with the office of the Secretary of State.

Done. Welcome to Maricopa.

Point of order - is it possible for someone to switch provinces after an election has begun and vote in the new province, or would that have to wait until the next election?
I am also interested in the rules for people to declare their intent to dwell in a different province by choice (where this is a situation of authorized geography of their dwelling)

Here's the relevant law:

7.3. No Talossan citizen may transfer his provincial citizenship to a different province, except by physically moving into that province or into the zone corresponding to that province. A citizens living inside or outside of Talossa, who moves permanently into an outside zone corresponding to a different province will be (re)assigned by the SoS to the province corresponding to the new geographic zone in accordance with the following provisions:
7.3.1 The provisions in this section do not apply unless the citizen explicitly consents to being reassigned. Whenever any Talossan wants to move his provincial assignment to the province in whose assigned area he actually lives, he may do so by notifying the Chancery. The move will be officially recognised once the Chancery has validated the request. (49RZ21 49RZ13)
7.3.2 The Secretary of State will be responsible for the various moves and assignments which result from this title. These moves and assignments will take effect on their official announcement by the Secretary of State. (49RZ21 47RZ2)

There does not appear to be anything preventing someone from physically moving, notifying the Chancery of this, and then voting in their new province (as long as they didn't already vote).  Everything seems on the up and up.

Quote from: xpb on May 16, 2021, 12:48:29 PM

Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on May 16, 2021, 10:20:34 AM

Quote from: Françal I. Lux on May 16, 2021, 01:47:21 AM
I'd like to request a change of province. I have flown the coop from rural Middle Tennessee to the bustling cities of the San Francisco Bay Area. I believe I'll be in the Province of Maricopa now. I'd be happy to update any and all information with the office of the Secretary of State.

Done. Welcome to Maricopa.

Point of order - is it possible for someone to switch provinces after an election has begun and vote in the new province, or would that have to wait until the next election?
I am also interested in the rules for people to declare their intent to dwell in a different province by choice (where this is a situation of authorized geography of their dwelling)

As there is no senate election in either his previous province or Maricopa, there is no reason not to reassign him. He didn't move just to vote on another provinces senate race. Maricopa has an open legislature so that also has no impact. He also had previously notified the Chancery of his impending move prior to the election so I see no reason to not make the adjustment under current law. Nothing to see here.

Thank you everyone! Finally about to make being a language nerd official. Starting my Master's program for comparative linguistics in the Fall

Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on May 16, 2021, 01:56:49 PM

Quote from: xpb on May 16, 2021, 12:48:29 PM

Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on May 16, 2021, 10:20:34 AM

Quote from: Françal I. Lux on May 16, 2021, 01:47:21 AM
I'd like to request a change of province. I have flown the coop from rural Middle Tennessee to the bustling cities of the San Francisco Bay Area. I believe I'll be in the Province of Maricopa now. I'd be happy to update any and all information with the office of the Secretary of State.

Done. Welcome to Maricopa.

Point of order - is it possible for someone to switch provinces after an election has begun and vote in the new province, or would that have to wait until the next election?
I am also interested in the rules for people to declare their intent to dwell in a different province by choice (where this is a situation of authorized geography of their dwelling)

As there is no senate election in either his previous province or Maricopa, there is no reason not to reassign him. He didn't move just to vote on another provinces senate race. Maricopa has an open legislature so that also has no impact. He also had previously notified the Chancery of his impending move prior to the election so I see no reason to not make the adjustment under current law. Nothing to see here.

and

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on May 16, 2021, 01:37:48 PM
Here's the relevant law:

7.3. No Talossan citizen may transfer his provincial citizenship to a different province, except by physically moving into that province or into the zone corresponding to that province. A citizens living inside or outside of Talossa, who moves permanently into an outside zone corresponding to a different province will be (re)assigned by the SoS to the province corresponding to the new geographic zone in accordance with the following provisions:
7.3.1 The provisions in this section do not apply unless the citizen explicitly consents to being reassigned. Whenever any Talossan wants to move his provincial assignment to the province in whose assigned area he actually lives, he may do so by notifying the Chancery. The move will be officially recognised once the Chancery has validated the request. (49RZ21 49RZ13)
7.3.2 The Secretary of State will be responsible for the various moves and assignments which result from this title. These moves and assignments will take effect on their official announcement by the Secretary of State. (49RZ21 47RZ2)

There does not appear to be anything preventing someone from physically moving, notifying the Chancery of this, and then voting in their new province (as long as they didn't already vote).  Everything seems on the up and up.

Thanks for both of the clarifications.  Now my question is that in some manner I was originally sorted to Cézembre under some previous protocol (perhaps to balance the population distribution) as the statute now reads:

7.10. CÉZEMBRE PROVINCE. Talossan citizens living in the following areas shall be assigned to Cézembre Province: the nations of Ireland, United Kingdom, Iceland, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, Monaco and any European nation not listed elsewhere.

-- if I were becoming a citizen now, by my current domicile, I would be in Florencia.  Thus reading here in hypothetical cases - the only place I could choose if I wished to (which I do not) for relocation would be Florencia, and that no person who does not dwell in the nations listed in 7.10 can become a citizen of Cézembre?

If I am understanding this correctly, then as immigrants continue to come from other areas than these countries, then Cézembre is not able to increase its population? 

We are at 21 citizens at the moment out of 185 active. 

May a citizen petition the King, the Ziu, &/or the Cort to be relocated other than by that granted by physically dwelling within a zone?

Is there any suspension of new immigration during an election?

Quote from: xpb on May 16, 2021, 05:38:05 PM
-- if I were becoming a citizen now, by my current domicile, I would be in Florencia.  Thus reading here in hypothetical cases - the only place I could choose if I wished to (which I do not) for relocation would be Florencia, and that no person who does not dwell in the nations listed in 7.10 can become a citizen of Cézembre?

Correct. You can relocate if you wish but new citizens fall into the currently designated catchment areas unless those are changed by the Ziu.

Quote
If I am understanding this correctly, then as immigrants continue to come from other areas than these countries, then Cézembre is not able to increase its population? 

Yes. They would have to be in the catchment area under existing law.

Quote
May a citizen petition the King, the Ziu, &/or the Cort to be relocated other than by that granted by physically dwelling within a zone?

Not as the law is currently written, no.

Quote
Is there any suspension of new immigration during an election?

Why would we suspend immigration? The chances of someone completing the process from start to finish in the 15 days of an election are incredibly slim. If someone were to be granted citizenship while an election was ongoing, why would we not allow them to exercise their rights and vote?

QuoteWhy would we suspend immigration? The chances of someone completing the process from start to finish in the 15 days of an election are incredibly slim. If someone were to be granted citizenship while an election was ongoing, why would we not allow them to exercise their rights and vote?

I think the reason could be because of the perceptions of impropriety (not necessarily something nefarious, but just poor optics).

No. This was the line put up by King Robert in 2004, alleging that his political opponents were "stacking the immigration queue" against him. Placing new citizens under suspicion, rather than welcoming them, was one of the things that led to him eventually being run out of the country. It makes Talossa smaller, meaner, nastier and more cult-like. That tradition - like the belief that some people, i.e. those critical of the monarchy, don't belong in Talossa - is abhorrent.

... where is the section of the Organic or statute law which explicitly states that you get a vote if you immigrate during the election? Because I'm sure there is one.

Quote from: xpb on May 16, 2021, 06:58:54 PM

QuoteWhy would we suspend immigration? The chances of someone completing the process from start to finish in the 15 days of an election are incredibly slim. If someone were to be granted citizenship while an election was ongoing, why would we not allow them to exercise their rights and vote?

I think the reason could be because of the perceptions of impropriety (not necessarily something nefarious, but just poor optics).

I think this is a fair enough concern, but this also happens incredibly infrequently.  Indeed, I can't think of it ever happening before!  If a province is worried enough about it, they could pass a law providing that only those who are citizens of the province at the start of Balloting Day get a vote.  I might just be blanking, but I don't think there's any Organic conflict there.  Not sure it would be a good idea to do that, though, until a problem actually happens.  No reason to risk disenfranchising people by accident!

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on May 16, 2021, 07:46:05 PM

Quote from: xpb on May 16, 2021, 06:58:54 PM

QuoteWhy would we suspend immigration? The chances of someone completing the process from start to finish in the 15 days of an election are incredibly slim. If someone were to be granted citizenship while an election was ongoing, why would we not allow them to exercise their rights and vote?

I think the reason could be because of the perceptions of impropriety (not necessarily something nefarious, but just poor optics).

I think this is a fair enough concern, but this also happens incredibly infrequently.  Indeed, I can't think of it ever happening before!  If a province is worried enough about it, they could pass a law providing that only those who are citizens of the province at the start of Balloting Day get a vote.  I might just be blanking, but I don't think there's any Organic conflict there.  Not sure it would be a good idea to do that, though, until a problem actually happens.  No reason to risk disenfranchising people by accident!

We could make problems where none exist too. I sure hope neither of you gentleman is suggesting anything improper in a citizen transferring provinces that has absolutely no effect on the election whatsoever or questioning my impartiality in applying the laws in fulfilling the very demanding job of Secretary of State.

Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on May 16, 2021, 08:04:26 PM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on May 16, 2021, 07:46:05 PM

Quote from: xpb on May 16, 2021, 06:58:54 PM

QuoteWhy would we suspend immigration? The chances of someone completing the process from start to finish in the 15 days of an election are incredibly slim. If someone were to be granted citizenship while an election was ongoing, why would we not allow them to exercise their rights and vote?

I think the reason could be because of the perceptions of impropriety (not necessarily something nefarious, but just poor optics).

I think this is a fair enough concern, but this also happens incredibly infrequently.  Indeed, I can't think of it ever happening before!  If a province is worried enough about it, they could pass a law providing that only those who are citizens of the province at the start of Balloting Day get a vote.  I might just be blanking, but I don't think there's any Organic conflict there.  Not sure it would be a good idea to do that, though, until a problem actually happens.  No reason to risk disenfranchising people by accident!

We could make problems where none exist too. I sure hope neither of you gentleman is suggesting anything improper in a citizen transferring provinces that has absolutely no effect on the election whatsoever or questioning my impartiality in applying the laws in fulfilling the very demanding job of Secretary of State.

...?

I said I thought that it wouldn't be a good idea to try to "solve" this, since no problem with it has actually happened.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on May 16, 2021, 08:23:16 PM

Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on May 16, 2021, 08:04:26 PM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on May 16, 2021, 07:46:05 PM

Quote from: xpb on May 16, 2021, 06:58:54 PM

QuoteWhy would we suspend immigration? The chances of someone completing the process from start to finish in the 15 days of an election are incredibly slim. If someone were to be granted citizenship while an election was ongoing, why would we not allow them to exercise their rights and vote?

I think the reason could be because of the perceptions of impropriety (not necessarily something nefarious, but just poor optics).

I think this is a fair enough concern, but this also happens incredibly infrequently.  Indeed, I can't think of it ever happening before!  If a province is worried enough about it, they could pass a law providing that only those who are citizens of the province at the start of Balloting Day get a vote.  I might just be blanking, but I don't think there's any Organic conflict there.  Not sure it would be a good idea to do that, though, until a problem actually happens.  No reason to risk disenfranchising people by accident!

We could make problems where none exist too. I sure hope neither of you gentleman is suggesting anything improper in a citizen transferring provinces that has absolutely no effect on the election whatsoever or questioning my impartiality in applying the laws in fulfilling the very demanding job of Secretary of State.

...?

I said I thought that it wouldn't be a good idea to try to "solve" this, since no problem with it has actually happened.

I'm probably just being overly cautious. This is my first election and I want to avoid any mistakes.

And needless to say—I informed the Chancery weeks in advance about my move and I have absolutely no nefarious intentions in my transfer. I would just like the Talossan province to reflect the actual place I'm actually living in catchment-wise.

Quote from: Françal I. Lux on May 16, 2021, 09:10:46 PM
And needless to say—I informed the Chancery weeks in advance about my move and I have absolutely no nefarious intentions in my transfer. I would just like the Talossan province to reflect the actual place I'm actually living in catchment-wise.

It is great that you will be able to relocate to the appropriate province - and I did not wish to infer any problematic intent.  The situation just triggered some questions based upon the law that might apply and how it would be applied during election periods (which your relocation does not appear to effect).

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on May 16, 2021, 07:46:05 PM

Quote from: xpb on May 16, 2021, 06:58:54 PM

QuoteWhy would we suspend immigration? The chances of someone completing the process from start to finish in the 15 days of an election are incredibly slim. If someone were to be granted citizenship while an election was ongoing, why would we not allow them to exercise their rights and vote?

I think the reason could be because of the perceptions of impropriety (not necessarily something nefarious, but just poor optics).

I think this is a fair enough concern, but this also happens incredibly infrequently.  Indeed, I can't think of it ever happening before!  If a province is worried enough about it, they could pass a law providing that only those who are citizens of the province at the start of Balloting Day get a vote.  I might just be blanking, but I don't think there's any Organic conflict there.  Not sure it would be a good idea to do that, though, until a problem actually happens.  No reason to risk disenfranchising people by accident!

I think that would definitely be an Organic conflict. 

"ORG.V.4: During the election period as defined in this article, the Secretary of State shall in every particular conduct the election according to the election laws in such a manner which affords to every citizen the opportunity to cast a vote for the party of his choice"

Every naturalised citizen gets a vote at some point during the election period, so if a prospective becomes fully naturalised before an election ends it would be InOrganic to deny them their vote.

We definitely shouldn't ever have a system where the Organic rights of one citizen is greater or lesser than those of another citizen across provinces either.  Say, Vuode adopted your proposal.  Then say a situation arose where a Vuodean and a Cezembrean naturalised part way through an election leading to the Cezebrean getting to vote and the Vuodean not getting to vote.  I can't see how this squares with OrgLaw.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on May 16, 2021, 07:14:19 PM
No. This was the line put up by King Robert in 2004, alleging that his political opponents were "stacking the immigration queue" against him. Placing new citizens under suspicion, rather than welcoming them, was one of the things that led to him eventually being run out of the country. It makes Talossa smaller, meaner, nastier and more cult-like. That tradition - like the belief that some people, i.e. those critical of the monarchy, don't belong in Talossa - is abhorrent.

... where is the section of the Organic or statute law which explicitly states that you get a vote if you immigrate during the election? Because I'm sure there is one.

Asking questions and getting responses like this -- rather than the other reasoned ones in this thread -- can really bring out the meaner and nastier tendencies, don't you think?

Quote from: xpb on May 16, 2021, 09:41:29 PM
Asking questions and getting responses like this -- rather than the other reasoned ones in this thread -- can really bring out the meaner and nastier tendencies, don't you think?

Yeah, how much did you consider "nastier tendencies" when you posted that you thought that your previous support for Reunision was a mistake? Perhaps you don't understand how such exclusionary tendencies make other Talossans feel unwelcome, and under threat.

Anyway I was sure that there was positive statute law which said "anyone who immigrates during the election period gets a vote". But I can't find it, so I'm feeling confused. Was there such a law and it was repealed?

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on May 16, 2021, 09:43:11 PM

Quote from: xpb on May 16, 2021, 09:41:29 PM
Asking questions and getting responses like this -- rather than the other reasoned ones in this thread -- can really bring out the meaner and nastier tendencies, don't you think?

Yeah, how much did you consider "nastier tendencies" when you posted that you thought that your previous support for Reunision was a mistake? Perhaps you don't understand how such exclusionary tendencies make other Talossans feel unwelcome, and under threat.

Anyway I was sure that there was positive statute law which said "anyone who immigrates during the election period gets a vote". But I can't find it, so I'm feeling confused. Was there such a law and it was repealed?

I am certain that the will of the citizens will be expressed in the upcoming election, and that the sharp tone of the various arguments are indicative of the importance that is placed upon that endeavor.  There are but a fraction of citizens who have an account on these forums, but perhaps more will be encouraged to read and perhaps engage in debate.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on May 16, 2021, 09:43:11 PM

Quote from: xpb on May 16, 2021, 09:41:29 PM
Asking questions and getting responses like this -- rather than the other reasoned ones in this thread -- can really bring out the meaner and nastier tendencies, don't you think?

Yeah, how much did you consider "nastier tendencies" when you posted that you thought that your previous support for Reunision was a mistake? Perhaps you don't understand how such exclusionary tendencies make other Talossans feel unwelcome, and under threat.

Anyway I was sure that there was positive statute law which said "anyone who immigrates during the election period gets a vote". But I can't find it, so I'm feeling confused. Was there such a law and it was repealed?

Might have been part of the previous OrgLaw?


edit... Whether it was ever explicitly stated like that or not though, it's always been implicit in the fact that all citizens have a right to vote. 

Quote from: Eðo Grischun on May 16, 2021, 09:35:45 PM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on May 16, 2021, 07:46:05 PM

Quote from: xpb on May 16, 2021, 06:58:54 PM

QuoteWhy would we suspend immigration? The chances of someone completing the process from start to finish in the 15 days of an election are incredibly slim. If someone were to be granted citizenship while an election was ongoing, why would we not allow them to exercise their rights and vote?

I think the reason could be because of the perceptions of impropriety (not necessarily something nefarious, but just poor optics).

I think this is a fair enough concern, but this also happens incredibly infrequently.  Indeed, I can't think of it ever happening before!  If a province is worried enough about it, they could pass a law providing that only those who are citizens of the province at the start of Balloting Day get a vote.  I might just be blanking, but I don't think there's any Organic conflict there.  Not sure it would be a good idea to do that, though, until a problem actually happens.  No reason to risk disenfranchising people by accident!

I think that would definitely be an Organic conflict. 

"ORG.V.4: During the election period as defined in this article, the Secretary of State shall in every particular conduct the election according to the election laws in such a manner which affords to every citizen the opportunity to cast a vote for the party of his choice"

Every naturalised citizen gets a vote at some point during the election period, so if a prospective becomes fully naturalised before an election ends it would be InOrganic to deny them their vote.

We definitely shouldn't ever have a system where the Organic rights of one citizen is greater or lesser than those of another citizen across provinces either.  Say, Vuode adopted your proposal.  Then say a situation arose where a Vuodean and a Cezembrean naturalised part way through an election leading to the Cezebrean getting to vote and the Vuodean not getting to vote.  I can't see how this squares with OrgLaw.

Well, that provision specifically says "according to the election laws," right?  The Chancery is obligated to run the elections the same for everyone that they do them for, but a province that runs its own election has its own election laws -- and I'm not aware of any Organic provision that would stop them from making Balloting Day the "registration deadline" for voters.

Again, that's a bad idea and silly, but I don't know why it couldn't happen.  And then certainly someone who switched provinces to that new province or who immigrated during the election would lose their chance to vote for their new senator, as far as I can see.

I don't think you can eliminate the theoretical possibility that some citizens will have an easier time voting than others, unless you just nationalize all elections.  For example, Vuode does not allow write-in candidates, and closes its candidate registration for the Senats ten days before the vote.  That is arguably less free than a province that does permit write-in candidates, right?  Both yourself and its previous senator won uncontested elections that were over before Balloting Day even arrived.  But no one begrudges Vuode its election laws, since Vuode is in charge of Vuode!  Not a big deal, really. Each province is afforded the right to conduct its own internal affairs.  And I don't think a citizen of the province could sue over it.

To be fair, it's probably something that would need to be tested in Court for a declaratory judgement.

The clause I cited, I think, would only apply to Cosa elections and not for Senates or Provincial Assemblies.  But, I'm still of the view that, for Cosa elections at least, a citizen is a citizen and they can't be denied a vote.  The clause on "according to election law" is followed by "in such a manner which affords to every citizen the opportunity to cast a vote". To me, that means the election law mentioned can't force a situation where a citizen is ever unable to vote for a party to the Cosa.

Quote from: Eðo Grischun on May 17, 2021, 02:04:18 AM
But, I'm still of the view that, for Cosa elections at least, a citizen is a citizen and they can't be denied a vote.  The clause on "according to election law" is followed by "in such a manner which affords to every citizen the opportunity to cast a vote". To me, that means the election law mentioned can't force a situation where a citizen is ever unable to vote for a party to the Cosa.

I'd agree unreservedly.