Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 20, 2024, 10:40:56 PMBut I do not think this is enough of an obstacle for me not to support the larger bill in the absence of opposition by others. It also looks like the planned abdication is now included in the proposal via a decree from the Ziu.

It was a very hard thing to write.  This whole thing is just so brutal, after all of these years of service.

In my opinion, my language for the convocation is better because it's a much much better safeguard against corruption.  A purely majoritarian process almost always turns into a hyperpartisan atmosphere.  And while that would benefit someone like me who's a loudmouth about stuff, I think it's much better to have set checks and safeguards on the process -- such as a designated apolitical chair and a designed check on that chair's power.  Remember that we should be thinking when we're making a new process: how could someone break this?

Okay, Passover was a lot this year - sorry about the wait.  Taking concerns as they came:

* I have added in a sunset clause as per previous discussion.  It is at the end of the bill.  I have tried to render it in a dignified way that is also legally effective, but it's tricky to write contingencies... please take a look at it!
* The text of the bill would not disqualify the Secretary of State, unless someone wanted to remain in office as Secretary of State and run their own election.  If someone were told before a convocation that they would likely be nominated, then they would be well-advised to take the two-week grace period to resign so someone else could be appointed to run the election.  This overall feature is not something that can be avoided, since obviously the person counting a secret ballot shouldn't be eligible to win the ballot if it's feasible.  I have added a sentence to make this possibility clearer: "If the Secretary of State is entirely unavailable or no longer serving in office, the chair shall be elected by the convocation of succession."
* I have changed the two-thirds language to be more clear -- thank you, that was sloppily phrased.
* I have not made broad changes beyond the scope of what we're discussing, especially when (as Dama Miestra notes) the removal bar is actually higher than what is literally necessary with the process of an amendment.  This is a big and complicated thing we're trying to do, achieving broad consensus among many factions, and we shouldn't borrow trouble by making other significant changes.  It's hard enough to solve the main issue without adding on other stuff.  I beg of you guys: if you have any other pet projects, let's take care of them some other time when we're not restructuring fundamental parts of our nation.
* If there's something I missed, it's not a trick.  It's instead that I tried to write a compact, legally sound, unambiguous, and nicely-composed big new chunk of law.  Please just help me if I dropped a stitch.


Whereas, the monarchy is a central pillar of the country and its survival depends on its planned future as well as its activity, and

Whereas, this allows for democratic confirmations without becoming wholesale elections,

THEREFORE, the Ziu directs that Article II of the Organic Law, which currently read:

QuoteSection 1
The Kingdom of Talossa is a constitutional Monarchy with a King (or, if female, Queen) as its head of State.

Section 2
The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King certain Royal Powers and duties as described in this Organic Law and in statute law. The Ziu may establish procedures for when the King fails to perform a duty.

Section 3
The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

Section 4
In dire circumstances, when the King is judged by competent medical authority to be incapable of executing his duties, or if he is convicted by the Talossan Uppermost Cort of violation of this Organic Law, treason, bribery, nonfeasance endangering the safety, order or good government of the Kingdom, or other high crimes, the nation may remove the King from the Throne. The Cosa shall pronounce by a two-thirds vote, with the approval of the Senäts, that the King is to be removed, and this pronouncement shall immediately be transmitted to the people for their verdict in a referendum. If a two-thirds majority of the people concur, the King is removed.

Section 5
The King may, at whim, appoint, replace, or remove a Regent (or a Council of Regency, which is considered equivalent to a Regent), who shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, except the power to appoint or replace a Regent. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent or member of a Council of Regency. The Ziu may by law remove or replace any appointed Regent, and if the Ziu removes a Regent appointed by the King, the King may not reappoint the same person Regent without the prior consent of the Ziu.

Section 6
The King may grant titles of nobility and confer awards and decorations.

shall be amended to read as follows:

QuoteSection 1
The Kingdom of Talossa is a constitutional Monarchy with a King (or, if female, Queen) as its head of State.

Section 2
The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King certain Royal Powers and duties as described in this Organic Law and in statute law. In addition, the King may grant titles of nobility and confer awards and decorations.

Section 3
The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne.  Upon his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne, the new King shall be the Heir Presumptive, who shall be the duly-designated successor to the throne.  The new King shall likewise be succeeded in the same manner, and thus forever in perpetuity.

Section 4
Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne.  However, the King may abdicate without renouncing his citizenship.

Section 5
In dire circumstances, when the King is judged by competent medical authority to be incapable of executing his duties, or if he is convicted by the Talossan Uppermost Cort of violation of this Organic Law, treason, bribery, nonfeasance endangering the safety, order or good government of the Kingdom, or other high crimes, the nation may remove the King from the Throne. The Cosa shall pronounce by a two-thirds vote, with the approval of the Senäts, that the King is to be removed, and this pronouncement shall immediately be transmitted to the people for their verdict in a referendum. If a two-thirds majority of the people concur, the King is removed.

Section 6
The King may, at whim, appoint, replace, or remove a Regent (or a Council of Regency, which is considered equivalent to a Regent), who shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, except the power to appoint or replace a Regent. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent or member of a Council of Regency. The Ziu may by law remove or replace any appointed Regent, and if the Ziu removes a Regent appointed by the King, the King may not reappoint the same person Regent without the prior consent of the Ziu.

Section 7
The King may nominate an Heir Presumptive by special decree to the Ziu.  This decree shall take effect upon approval of a two-thirds supermajority of the Cosa and majority approval of the Senäts, and by a majority of the people.

Section 8
Upon any vacancy on the Throne with no Heir Presumptive, the Secretary of State shall announce a convocation of succession.  This announcement will include details of the convocation of succession, as described by the Secretary of State.  The Secretary of State shall also include in this announcement a set of proposed rules and procedures for the convocation of succession, for public debate and consideration.  This announcement shall further include a list of all those who have been citizens no fewer than seven full years prior to that date, and who are therefore eligible electors of the convocation.  The Secretary of State shall shall immediately thereafter notify all of these electors of the convocation and their responsibilities.

Fourteen days after this announcement, the convocation shall be deemed to have commenced.  It shall be chaired by the Secretary of State in a fair manner designed to foster open discussion and faithful service.  If the Secretary of State is entirely unavailable or no longer serving in office, the chair shall be elected by the convocation of succession.  The convocation of succession's first order of business shall be to approve, with or without modifications, the rules under which it will operate.   A decision of the chair may be appealed to the Uppermost Cort.  The convocation shall vote by secret ballot on a King.  The Túischac'h dal Cosa and the Mençei dal Senäts shall observe voting and ensure its fidelity.  All electors' votes shall have equal weight, and whichever candidate first receives the support of two-thirds of the convocation shall be deemed the nominee of the convocation of succession.  No votes for ineligible candidates shall be considered.  This choice shall be submitted to the people by referendum for their approval.  Should a majority of the people approve of the nominee, they shall be King of the Kingdom of Talossa.

Section 9
For the duration of any time during which the throne is empty, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

FURTHERMORE, the Ziu decrees, effective thirty days from the ratification of this amendment by the people and effective only if there is no nominee for Heir Presumptive before the Ziu, that the throne is vacant as though King John I had abdicated, and King John I is once more an ordinary citizen, with all of the rights and privileges of the same, released from his office and his duties with the nation's gratitude for his long service.  The Secretary of State is directed to begin immediate preparations for a convocation of succession.

All of these things are pretty easy to fix. I was just going to let someone else draft the sunset language, but I'm happy to do it too.

I just got back from seder, so give me a little bit and I think all of the stuff is pretty easily remedied.

Quote from: Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN on April 20, 2024, 11:56:57 AM1) Section 3, needs some capital K's for the King.

Fixed.

Quote from: Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN on April 20, 2024, 11:56:57 AM2) I think there needs to be some provision in there that, in the announcement of the Convocation of Succession, the SoS proposes how the Convocation of Succession will be run/the rules (e.g. nominations periods, voting method, how long voting will be open for etc..) and that the first act of the Electors is to approve by majority vote (or 2/3rds) said rules. Like the way the SoS announces how a GE is run and the EC approves said. No point appealing to the CpI when there is no established set of rules.

I added, "The Secretary of State shall also include in this announcement a set of proposed rules and procedures for the convocation of succession, for public debate and consideration" and later "The convocation of succession's first order of business shall be to approve, with or without modifications, the rules under which it will operate."

Quote from: Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN on April 20, 2024, 11:56:57 AM3) Another idea is that if the SoS becomes a candidate/get nominated for King, then the SoS should recuse him/herself as Chair and nominate another to take his/her place.

I added, "No votes for ineligible candidates shall be considered."  That way the SoS can't be forced to recuse by nominating him, but also can't receive any votes.

Juneau Day is 28 May, so I expect that will be the next awards.

-Dean

It would be polite to wait until you are officially awarded the arms at the next appropriate holiday.

-Dean

The new Section 9 would cover that, stating, "For the duration of any time during which the throne is empty, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency."  An error... I wonder if it should be placed somewhere else?

Okay then, here we go.  I solved the convocation thing by having the SoS run it as chair, but their decision appealable to the Uppermost Cort and with voting overseen by the heads of the Ziu.  I also fixed a lot of language and simplified a bit.  I think it solves all the problems I saw; hypothetically someone could try to game the system by appealing to the CpI over and over, but I don't think that's much of a path to corruption.  I removed all the timeline stuff and statute stuff that would let governments or officials try to meddle and game the system.  I kept more of the original language (why borrow trouble?)


Whereas, the monarchy is a central pillar of the country and its survival depends on its planned future as well as its activity, and

Whereas, this allows for democratic confirmations without becoming wholesale elections,

THEREFORE, the Ziu directs that Article II of the Organic Law, which currently read:

QuoteSection 1
The Kingdom of Talossa is a constitutional Monarchy with a King (or, if female, Queen) as its head of State.

Section 2
The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King certain Royal Powers and duties as described in this Organic Law and in statute law. The Ziu may establish procedures for when the King fails to perform a duty.

Section 3
The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

Section 4
In dire circumstances, when the King is judged by competent medical authority to be incapable of executing his duties, or if he is convicted by the Talossan Uppermost Cort of violation of this Organic Law, treason, bribery, nonfeasance endangering the safety, order or good government of the Kingdom, or other high crimes, the nation may remove the King from the Throne. The Cosa shall pronounce by a two-thirds vote, with the approval of the Senäts, that the King is to be removed, and this pronouncement shall immediately be transmitted to the people for their verdict in a referendum. If a two-thirds majority of the people concur, the King is removed.

Section 5
The King may, at whim, appoint, replace, or remove a Regent (or a Council of Regency, which is considered equivalent to a Regent), who shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, except the power to appoint or replace a Regent. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent or member of a Council of Regency. The Ziu may by law remove or replace any appointed Regent, and if the Ziu removes a Regent appointed by the King, the King may not reappoint the same person Regent without the prior consent of the Ziu.

Section 6
The King may grant titles of nobility and confer awards and decorations.

shall be amended to read as follows:

QuoteSection 1
The Kingdom of Talossa is a constitutional Monarchy with a King (or, if female, Queen) as its head of State.

Section 2
The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King certain Royal Powers and duties as described in this Organic Law and in statute law. In addition, the King may grant titles of nobility and confer awards and decorations.

Section 3
The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne.  Upon his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne, the new King shall be the Heir Presumptive, who shall be the duly-designated successor to the throne.  The new King shall likewise be succeeded in the same manner, and thus forever in perpetuity.

Section 4
Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne.  However, the King may abdicate without renouncing his citizenship.

Section 5
In dire circumstances, when the King is judged by competent medical authority to be incapable of executing his duties, or if he is convicted by the Talossan Uppermost Cort of violation of this Organic Law, treason, bribery, nonfeasance endangering the safety, order or good government of the Kingdom, or other high crimes, the nation may remove the King from the Throne. The Cosa shall pronounce by a two-thirds vote, with the approval of the Senäts, that the King is to be removed, and this pronouncement shall immediately be transmitted to the people for their verdict in a referendum. If a two-thirds majority of the people concur, the King is removed.

Section 6
The King may, at whim, appoint, replace, or remove a Regent (or a Council of Regency, which is considered equivalent to a Regent), who shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, except the power to appoint or replace a Regent. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent or member of a Council of Regency. The Ziu may by law remove or replace any appointed Regent, and if the Ziu removes a Regent appointed by the King, the King may not reappoint the same person Regent without the prior consent of the Ziu.

Section 7
The King may nominate an Heir Presumptive by special decree to the Ziu.  This decree shall take effect upon approval of a two-thirds supermajority of the Ziu and by a majority of the people.

Section 8
Upon any vacancy on the Throne with no Heir Presumptive, the Secretary of State shall announce a convocation of succession.  This announcement will include details of the convocation of succession, as described by the Secretary of State.  The Secretary of State shall also include in this announcement a set of proposed rules and procedures for the convocation of succession, for public debate and consideration.  This announcement shall further include a list of all those who have been citizens no fewer than seven full years prior to that date, and who are therefore eligible electors of the convocation.  The Secretary of State shall shall immediately thereafter notify all of these electors of the convocation and their responsibilities.

Fourteen days after this announcement, the convocation shall be deemed to have commenced.  It shall be chaired by the Secretary of State in a fair manner designed to foster open discussion and faithful service.  The convocation of succession's first order of business shall be to approve, with or without modifications, the rules under which it will operate.   A decision of the chair may be appealed to the Uppermost Cort.  The convocation shall vote by secret ballot on a King.  The Túischac'h dal Cosa and the Mençei dal Senäts shall observe voting and ensure its fidelity.  All electors' votes shall have equal weight, and whichever candidate first receives the support of two-thirds of the convocation shall be deemed the nominee of the convocation of succession.  No votes for ineligible candidates shall be considered.  This choice shall be submitted to the people by referendum for their approval.  Should a majority of the people approve of the nominee, they shall be King of the Kingdom of Talossa.

Section 9
For the duration of any time during which the throne is empty, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

Well obvious problems with the convocation process still exist! Can I write up a new version of it or tell you what the problems are again? Most fundamentally, it's a terrible idea to have the people holding the power schedule out when an election will happen and run the process for the most part.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 17, 2024, 04:53:53 PM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 17, 2024, 01:23:43 PMThe other thing is a really good start, but I do think it would be really preferable to include the convocation thing as well. I'm ready to write up a version of it to hash out the details, presuming you're okay with the basic concept. I don't think it should take that long.

Just posted my own version with the Convocation provisions cut-and-pasted from Brenéir's/Ian P.'s proposal. Can you tell me - because I think you're in a position to know - will this get at least 3 TNC MCs in favour of it?

I should also note the Abdication bill is "post-dated", to allow both the Succession Amendment to pass and His Maj to actually nominate his successor, should he choose to do so. Does that sound good?

At a basic level, maybe? We do still need to fix some of the fine details to make it work. I notice that you seem to be trying to steer me away from writing any of the actual text of the bill. Would you prefer to do it yourself, and I can just tell you the problems with the text as it stands? Or would you prefer I write a modified draft of what you have proposed?

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 17, 2024, 01:10:52 AM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 16, 2024, 09:55:08 PMI have to admit that I don't really understand the point of this legislation? The legislature can amend the Orglaw and submit the amendment for ratification by the people, or can depose the king by a similarly high standard of passage for certain specified causes, but this appears to just be an ephemeral bill to depose the king?

If the king wishes to abdicate, he doesn't need this legislation. If he does not wish to abdicate, this probably would need to be phrased differently.

It's copy-pasted from the bill that ratified the abdication of Edward VIII of the UK. There is no law or Organic provision governing the manner and form of abdications. So I figured this manner/form would be as good as any other, and in the precedent of a respected constitutional monarchy, and wouldn't require "Organically decapitating" the incumbent.

Any comment on whether the other thing, the Succession Amendment, is good enough?

I would assume we would stick with our own tradition, where the sovereign affirms their intentions under a declaration like any other they would make above their signature. But really it's up to the king, so I guess it doesn't matter.

The other thing is a really good start, but I do think it would be really preferable to include the convocation thing as well. I'm ready to write up a version of it to hash out the details, presuming you're okay with the basic concept. I don't think it should take that long.

I assign this applicant to you then, TLF, with the request that you seek to stay within the customary tinctures if reasonably possible. In my personal opinion, exceptions should be made only when it cannot be avoided because of established history, precedent, important connection, or extremely clever idea.

-Dean

I have to admit that I don't really understand the point of this legislation? The legislature can amend the Orglaw and submit the amendment for ratification by the people, or can depose the king by a similarly high standard of passage for certain specified causes, but this appears to just be an ephemeral bill to depose the king?

If the king wishes to abdicate, he doesn't need this legislation. If he does not wish to abdicate, this probably would need to be phrased differently.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on April 15, 2024, 10:08:59 PM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 15, 2024, 07:36:42 PMWe should establish an expectation and a norm in the law that His Majesty nominates someone, the Ziu approves it, and the people affirm it.

I have to reiterate the expressed position of the Free Democrats that Ziu approval must be OrgLaw-amendment threshold, i.e. 2/3 of the Cosa.

I also don't want to be in the position I have been over and over again in Talossa - where I express myself loosely and AD decides that I just agreed with him and bulldozes forward on that position. This is not a "compromise". This is an alternative.

Just to confirm: I want to write a bill where an Organic procedure is established for nominating a successor.  In this procedure, the monarch will nominate their successor, and that person will then receive supermajority Ziu confirmation (or not).  After and only after that approval is received, the nominee would be transmitted to the people for their confirmation through a majority referendum.  The same bill will also contain procedures for filling a vacant throne, and they will be similar to the basic idea of the convocation proposed by Breneir.  And finally -- painfully -- the bill will contain a sunset clause which automatically vacates the throne unless His Majesty has already had a nominee confirmed by the Ziu.

Obviously the Ziu could just do all of this at any time, but the procedure will be there as an expectation to be followed.  And presumably it would then be followed.

This is literally exactly what I just said a moment ago and what you agreed to.  Does that all sound okay?

I realize that this would be ceding some of the things you'd like to get.  The throne would never be empty, so the opportunity to keep it empty would be gone.  And that makes it harder to end the monarchy permanently.  This would also mean that your closest ally wouldn't directly become the king, as Breneir has been advocating.

Instead, this would be a consensus move that represents compromise for everyone in the name of helping our ailing country.  It would be a compromise on your part, since for right now you'd be setting aside your larger goal of ending the monarchy in the name of fixing the present situation.

Quote from: þerxh Sant-Enogat on April 16, 2024, 12:19:19 AM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 15, 2024, 07:59:42 PMIf I write it, someone will have to sponsor it. Hopefully someone will agree to do so on my behalf?

Why not.. Can you show us what this would be like ?

Since Miestra guides the bulk of her party's votes, I'm not going to write it until there's a deal on the table with her.  But my reply to her, above, has the basic plan.  We need to get this situation fixed.