Quote from: Dr. Pôl dal Nordselvă on July 15, 2025, 06:29:06 PMI will take that as your conceding the point of discussion. My only accusation is that somebody always tries to stifle the debate rather than actually respond in a meaningful and constructive way.

I am not "conceding" when I suggest that a heated partisan debate about blame will undermine the bipartisan commission to suggest solutions.

I am serious about actually addressing this issue.  There is a time and place for campaigning, and I don't think the people will buy the Government's spin on this issue.  But with respect to this effort, I am going to try to engage in the spirit which I think is going to actually help matters.

Quote from: Iason Taiwos on July 15, 2025, 06:21:04 PMIf I'm not allowed to post here, not being a member of this committee, then please delete this. (But give me a break. I work in a miserable factory, it was 107 degrees Fahrenheit in there today, my brains are a little fried.)
Talossa is great. I've been a citizen since 2011. Somehow, you all have put up with me even when I've occasionally been a complete jackass. I am pleased to be a part of Talossa, and am proud if I've managed to make any single, meager contribution to it. (yeah, that Cjovani crap.) Talossa has held my interest since 2011. I haven't even held a job at the same place for that long. I've come to believe that this is a community of decent, creative, and genuinely cool people, and I don't think I'd ever renounce my citizenship. The only way I leave Talossa is in a casket.
That being said, the problem is immigration. I've tried to get my own family members to join, without success. The grandkids walk into my house, see my Talossan flag hanging on the wall, and my Guizua prominently displayed, it's just "That's that fake country Poppy is an Admiral in." Efforts to recruit some of the nerds that frequent Vitx's game store have also met with failure.
Then I get online and see shit like Slowjamistan. Maybe that guy has a lot of money. He bought a parcel of land in the desert. You can go there. He has merch you can buy. You can drive to wherever his land is, he has signs up, maybe you can meet him and other Slowjamistanians. Sealand is harder to actually visit, but you shell out some Louis, you can become royalty. Novelty gift, be a Duke or whatever. Get a fancy certificate.
I'm not suggesting Talossa become like that. "Become a Duke in Talossa for $39.95! Get a certificate signed by the King!" But, maybe that kind of marketing may help. People like to get stuff. Citizenship in Talossa may be free, but why can't we charge money for citizenship certificates and ID cards? And flags? The official Talossan website should have a store. Sure, you'll get a bunch of people who join just for the novelty. "I've lived in Milwaukee my whole life and didn't know I was a in an independent nation! I just joined and ordered an ID card!" Out of all the people who do that as a novelty, maybe we'll get some more people who become intrigued by what Talossa is all about, and who will actively take it seriously. If not, we've still managed to get money from them.
As far as I'm concerned, our language is our greatest asset. We should promote the shit out of that. We need more original Talossan language works, or translations, anything. I'm half tempted to try and contact Iusti Canun in prison, who knows? The dude has nothing but spare time, by now he may have translated the entire Lord of the Rings into Talossan.
I'm done now. Work was pretty bad today. I believe I may have heat exhaustion.

These are good ideas!  Thank you.

Quote from: Dr. Pôl dal Nordselvă on July 15, 2025, 06:13:45 PMIsn't this the purpose of this debate and commission? It seems to me the only person "circling" anything is you as you circle the drain of irrelevance. The point of this commission isnt to point fingers and blame others for perceived error. Rather it is to find a path forward that encourages immigration. I'd suggest the purpose is to encourage longevity. Again I say why have peiple come here to leave or just disappear?

As much as I opposed the AI conversation that would have at least been an attraction for many people. The curiosity factor alone could have been huge. This issue requires stepping outside our tired and overused talking points and thinking outside the box.

Engaging more with other micronations; virtual sporting events; public engagement with world governments; bringing attention to worldwide concerns. Many or all of these could be draws. There are things that can be done differently that don't require political tension.

We can do better. We SHOULD do better. Let's get the message out that we ARE better.

I am going to decline to respond to any of this, except to say that I think this thread would best be served by keeping it focused on the bipartisan royal commission which was created to recommend specific solutions to the people and the Ziu, not to cast blame.  Please, if you wish to continue debating, please start a new thread or continue at the one I linked.

I would like to reiterate that I think this debate isn't helpful.  I know that Dama Miestra, Pol, and Antaglha want to circle the wagons and defend the Government, but this is a thread about a bipartisan royal commission.

If you want to have this debate, I'd direct you here: https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=4188.0   Or a new thread somewhere else, if someone wants to challenge the current prevailing narrative.

Otherwise, can we just let this thread alone and agree that we're going to work together to help solve the problem?

Quote from: Dr. Pôl dal Nordselvă on July 15, 2025, 05:53:39 PMWhy is immigration the largest concern of some parties?

It's not the Progressive Alliance's only concern, but it's a pretty big one.  After all, currently some folks are arguing we should be deleting the entire Senats, which has been around for more than three decades, since there's not enough people just to fill the chairs.  We're losing more people each year than immigrate, over this past year.

Quote from: Dr. Pôl dal Nordselvă on July 15, 2025, 05:53:39 PMHow many actual people immigrate monthly? I see numbers thrown around that in reality mean nothing.

The government publishes official data on immigration.  They're real numbers.  Are you claiming that actually there's no problem and recent immigrants are much more active and everything is great?

Quote from: Dr. Pôl dal Nordselvă on July 15, 2025, 05:53:39 PMQuote frankly the things mentioned as attractions aren't. All of those things can be done absent of Talossa. There needs to be something beyond special, a master reason to join. I'll state again that addressing the motivation should be more important than nitpicking the numbers.

I'm not "nitpicking."  It's a huge, impossible-to-ignore trend.  It's a 50% drop.

So there's nothing you really like about Talossa right now?  Nothing you enjoy doing?

Quote from: Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on July 15, 2025, 05:48:28 PMBut it still boils back to the same point, of those things you mentioned not being visible, even to those who have been around for years, so how would a newcomer easily find out?

Sure, we should probably do a better job of promoting the things that are going on.  I think that would be great!  Please do so!

Clearly, I don't think "everything is great."  I have been loudly agitating to point out that the immigration rate has plummeted by half.  That is not great.  I have made a lot of suggestions about how the Government could do better, but one of the most fundamental things I've been urging is that we should be trying lots of things, loudly and with emphasis, since this is a crisis.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on July 15, 2025, 05:32:30 PMYou don't *really* think that changing the election of Senators from provincial to at-large is burning the house down. I'd prefer you quit it with the overheated (see what I did there?) rhetoric.

It's a metaphor.  Last time I used the metaphor of a crumbling wall in our house, which is probably more commensurate.  I apologize if this example was too inflammatory.

If you guys think that changing to at-large Senators will fix the problem, then do it, even if I object.  Either you'll be right or you'll be wrong.

Quote from: Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on July 15, 2025, 05:33:34 PMOk, so when was the last time the Talossan language was taught?

Are you kidding me?  I just published the fifth lesson in my language series!  For the last couple of months, I've been very publicly posting and discussing them and working with others to improve them.

https://talossan.net/

Quote from: Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on July 15, 2025, 05:33:34 PMI'm not saying Talossa is all bad, but if you think of it from an outside perspective, with what I've mentioned, it isn't the most attractive place to join in our current state.

Is it possible that you might just not be aware of some of the things going on right now?

Quote from: Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on July 15, 2025, 05:20:16 PMAnd again you miss the entire point,

Ok so let me ask again, what is the draw for people to become a Talossan and stick around?

My objection was to your claim that no Government has succeeded in improving the immigration rate.  That's wrong.  There are a lot of things the Government could be trying.  (And if the Government thinks something will help, they should do it even if I disagree, and then celebrate when immigration improves -- that's electoral democracy!  Try lots of things.)

But I do think this line of questioning might get at some of the problem... Antaglha, don't you like being here?  Isn't there anything you like to do in Talossa?

People can learn the language using a series of new language lessons, or they can join electoral politics and participate from the start in either their province or nationally, or they can join the Coletx and do fun heraldry/feudal stuff, or they can join the Royal Academy and talk about any bit of erudition they like, or they can do their own new project like license plates or whatever, or join one of the many game competitions or music programs... I mean, the list goes on!  We have a lot to offer!  Talossa is great!

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on July 15, 2025, 05:15:01 PMI must say I don't think it's helpful for calls for "a top-to-bottom review of immigration" to come from Talossa's conservative party; the party which objects strongly every time the Government tries any fundamental reforms.

If the house is on fire, you will find that the firefighters object to spraying it with gasoline, dousing it with bourbon, or covering it in napalm.  It doesn't mean that action isn't needed.

Quote from: Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on July 15, 2025, 05:06:57 PMOk so let me ask you, of those numbers, how many actually become citizens? And if so how long do they stay engaged for if the do become citizen? You are just using numbers to hide the issue, and this is why I said "real terms" as, those numbers you quoted, point to the larger issue of not having something to draw people in, which means the root of the issue goes deeper than the numbers you quoted, and hide behind.

And yes I say hide behind as you used that an  excuse to avoid answering the core of my argument on the first place. Which is shady politics, and is far from helpful in this situation that you yourself have called a crisis.

Those are the immigration numbers, not the application numbers, lol.  I know, it's surprising how much the immigration rate has plummeted!  The application rate has stayed fairly consistent, but the immigration rate has dropped by fully half.

This is a serious problem.  I think we need to do something, and I am urging the Government to act.  If the Government refuses or tries to pretend away the problem with empty accusations, then I hope the people respond with similar contempt.  None of this is shady.

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil, O.Be on July 15, 2025, 11:20:19 AM

• I agree that reviving the Talossa Assistant program is something we should try to do. I think the trick is getting people to stick with it (assistants I mean, not prospectives) but I'm sure we can come up with something.
• I also think that the Prime Minister's Patriotic Award (I believe this is what His Majesty was referring to in his fourth point) is worth reviving.
• The New Citizen's Guide could likely use a refresh.
• I think we inadvertently hide a lot of our "fun" topics in the Chat Room board, because the "main" Wittenberg board is seen as being more for formal business (election announcements, that sort of thing). Since prospectives cannot see the Chat Room, they miss out on a lot of the events we have going on. I think we do a disservice to both ourselves and prospectives by hiding them.
  
  • We could consider simply moving our "fun" threads (TCAT, CRT, TMT20, etc.) to the main Witt board and encourage people who make new fun events in the future to put them on the main board as well.
  • There's also been talk of reorganizing the boards, which I think is something we could be doing at the same time.

I agree with all of this, except to note that the boards have already been significantly reorganized.

Quote from: Dr. Pôl dal Nordselvă on July 15, 2025, 11:06:06 AMChange the process if immigration by allowing immigrants time to adapt to our society and customs before being required to explain why they are requesting citizenship. I can guarantee we have lost prospective citizens because the application process is intimidating. Most will have no experience in how Talossa is governed and might take time to understand before requesting immigration status.

Additionally we need to understand the scope of immigration. What is the hope and focus we are trying to achieve? Do we need a specific number of immigrants to feel validated? Or is the purpose to expand at any cost?

I also agree with 100% of this, and I reiterate that the Government should be doing a top-to-bottom review of the immigration process.

The only take I disagree with here, I'm sorry to add, is His Majesty's take that public debates should be removed from the Ziu.  They are a feature for prospective immigrants, since they are a consistent sign of a lively and interesting political culture.  A silent governmental apparatus just makes us look very quiet.

Other ideas I have been proposing:

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on June 24, 2025, 08:03:43 PMMaybe we focus on our strengths with heraldry, and appeal to the online heraldic community?  Maybe we incentivize recruiting with awards, and publicize those awards with recorded video speeches?  Maybe we explore reaching out to former Old Growthers to invite them back?  Maybe we offer prizes for Talossan language writing, and then advertise those prizes on conlang forums?

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on June 28, 2025, 06:12:52 PMThe immigration form has something like thirty steps, including boxes to be expanded and questions and checkboxes and an essay -- have we looked at this and seen if it can be improved?  Have we looked at our websites and seen if they can be made more welcoming?  What exactly has even been attempted?

The immigration rate during the Plätschisch government was 0.44 immigrants per month.  This increased to 1.14 during the 58th Cosa -- dramatically higher -- and then again increased to 1.38 during the 59th Cosa.  Since then, it has dropped by 50% again, down to 0.69 a month.

Now the causes are complex, and it's not as simple as throwing the immigration switch from one Government to another.  There might be all kinds of trends to cause this.  I have tried hard to avoid saying that the Government has caused this dramatic drop, and instead I have emphasized that it's a failure to meet the moment and address the crisis.  So there's no magic switch to fix this.  But it is simply mistaken to say that "not one government has been able to in real terms increase immigration in a positive way for Talossa."  The numbers are public.  There are things that can be done, and things we should stop doing.

Okay, I'll just see what works best when it comes to writing the lessons.  I think it will probably be good to do it all at once.  That could be lesson seven, I think.

Fair enough!  I'll edit it.

Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on July 14, 2025, 09:29:39 PMI was at one time, don't know when the wiki was updated. I didn't run in the last election (for a couple of reasons)

Well, I'm pretty sure you were still a senator at that time, which is why I wrote it that way.