Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on Yesterday at 06:02:54 PMI would like to reiterate that I think this debate isn't helpful.  I know that Dama Miestra, Pol, and Antaglha want to circle the wagons and defend the Government, but this is a thread about a bipartisan royal commission.

If you want to have this debate, I'd direct you here: https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=4188.0  Or a new thread somewhere else, if someone wants to challenge the current prevailing narrative.

Otherwise, can we just let this thread alone and agree that we're going to work together to help solve the problem?

AD with all due respect, this IS the place to have this discussion, at least with what myself and Pol have been arguing for, which is that the points we have made, be brought up for serious discussion in the royal commission, Also, I think you'll find that I have not defended the government, and have openly admitted that this is an issue that has been several successive governments, on both sides. But you must have missed those in your haste to respond quickly. As I have not in any way been defending the government, but saying that we need the scope of the commission to talk about our appeal to non talossans who might stumble across us. And how to make this look like a place they might want to join. It's all well and good in reforming the immigration system, if nothing else changes, and the numbers remain low (as to be frank, they have been low for years under our governments of others) then we would be back at square one.

I believe that this being talked about by the commission should be a part of its agenda to look at solution in tandem with other issues the commission might find to rectify.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on Yesterday at 05:40:08 PMIt's a metaphor.  Last time I used the metaphor of a crumbling wall in our house, which is probably more commensurate.  I apologize if this example was too inflammatory.

If you guys think that changing to at-large Senators will fix the problem, then do it, even if I object.  Either you'll be right or you'll be wrong.

Are you kidding me?  I just published the fifth lesson in my language series!  For the last couple of months, I've been very publicly posting and discussing them and working with others to improve them.

https://talossan.net/
Is it possible that you might just not be aware of some of the things going on right now?

Ok so the two parts quoted from me, actually boil down to the same point, so, if there are things going on in Talossa, some things I can see in the chat room, but beyond that, finding information about what is happening for people to get engaged, that has been a problem for years too. That and again, there really isn't much.

I wasn't aware of your language course for example. But I was more referencing it coming from the university of Talossa that I think used to do them.

But it still boils back to the same point, of those things you mentioned not being visible, even to those who have been around for years, so how would a newcomer easily find out? Which comes back to the current appeal. I'm not saying we don't have potential, but we do need to be brutally honest with our selfs, that Talossa has massive issues that would drive people away. And that is something that needs to be addressed.

Optics is important to draw people in. So you may think everything is great, but, if that were true, we wouldn't have an immigration or activity issue to begin with. Which is why I have made the arguments I have today.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on Yesterday at 05:25:21 PMMy objection was to your claim that no Government has succeeded in improving the immigration rate.  That's wrong.  There are a lot of things the Government could be trying.  (And if the Government thinks something will help, they should do it even if I disagree, and then celebrate when immigration improves -- that's electoral democracy!  Try lots of things.)

But I do think this line of questioning might get at some of the problem... Antaglha, don't you like being here?  Isn't there anything you like to do in Talossa?

People can learn the language using a series of new language lessons, or they can join electoral politics and participate from the start in either their province or nationally, or they can join the Coletx and do fun heraldry/feudal stuff, or they can join the Royal Academy and talk about any bit of erudition they like, or they can do their own new project like license plates or whatever, or join one of the many game competitions or music programs... I mean, the list goes on!  We have a lot to offer!  Talossa is great!

Ok, so when was the last time the Talossan language was taught? Our politics is actually going to be a big turn off for people with the way things are between the parties right now. On both sides of the table here.

Heraldry, you get to have person crest commissioned or possibly join to help create them. But the first happens once, the latter only matters when Talossa has people immigrating.

Whilst there may be some things going on. Honestly right now, Talossa is mostly exhausted and nowhere near as active as it used to be, and provincial activity rarely happens now days, and in some provinces is essentially dead due to lack of active cotizens participating. Those who are left are getting increasingly tired of how things are.

I'm not saying Talossa is all bad, but if you think of it from an outside perspective, with what I've mentioned, it isn't the most attractive place to join in our current state.

And again you miss the entire point,

Ok so let me ask again, what is the draw for people to become a Talossan and stick around?

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on Yesterday at 05:00:41 PMThe immigration rate during the Plätschisch government was 0.44 immigrants per month.  This increased to 1.14 during the 58th Cosa -- dramatically higher -- and then again increased to 1.38 during the 59th Cosa.  Since then, it has dropped by 50% again, down to 0.69 a month.

Now the causes are complex, and it's not as simple as throwing the immigration switch from one Government to another.  There might be all kinds of trends to cause this.  I have tried hard to avoid saying that the Government has caused this dramatic drop, and instead I have emphasized that it's a failure to meet the moment and address the crisis.  So there's no magic switch to fix this.  But it is simply mistaken to say that "not one government has been able to in real terms increase immigration in a positive way for Talossa."  The numbers are public.  There are things that can be done, and things we should stop doing.

Ok so let me ask you, of those numbers, how many actually become citizens? And if so how long do they stay engaged for if the do become citizen? You are just using numbers to hide the issue, and this is why I said "real terms" as, those numbers you quoted, point to the larger issue of not having something to draw people in, which means the root of the issue goes deeper than the numbers you quoted, and hide behind.

And yes I say hide behind as you used that an  excuse to avoid answering the core of my argument on the first place. Which is shady politics, and is far from helpful in this situation that you yourself have called a crisis.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 03, 2025, 11:43:32 AMI have accepted His Majesty's invitation to join this group, and I am honoured to serve my country. 

I have been a harsh critic of the failures of this Government, which has presided over a sharp drop in the immigration rate, but it would be unpatriotic to only sit back and criticize.  This is a great opportunity to help step in and fix things a bit, and I applaud His Majesty for recognizing the needs of the moment.  People from across the political spectrum must realize the extent of this crisis, and rise to meet the challenge.

Let's change the direction of things, and get Talossa humming again.  ¡Sà viva noastra Regeu!

I think this is a dangerous mindset to have in the talks within the commission, as it fails to take into account a big question. That I believe the commission should talk about as part of its remit.

With Talossa as it is now, with all the political infighting with the old guard, a stale air in our politics and failings of successive governments, by not just this one but the last few years across all political parties, not one government has been able to in real terms increase immigration in a positive way for Talossa.

So the question we must ask ourselves, is what is the draw to become a Talossan? Why would people want to join outright nation, And why would they stick around even if they submit an application or even be granted citizenship, as most of those who have in recent years have become inactive or renounced.

So I would ask, before we talk about the immigration issue, we need to have a deeper think and self reflection of what is the appeal, and how do we increase the appeal to draw people in to want to become a Talossan? As if there was an appeal, we wouldn't be struggling so much with numbers.

I would like to propose, that should the above motion fails, we hold a vote on whether or not, with the state of the party right now, we should dissolve the party under the rules of our constitution, or if we should continue.

Túischac'h

Honestly, I lost track of time as mental health and energy was worse than usual the end of the last couple of weeks, so I missed the deadline. So that was my mistake.

I do intend to submit it to the next Clark and I will use the next few weeks to get in contact with them and prompt them to show themselves here more if possible. But we will review the situation closer to the time and make a final decision and a statement then.

I will state this clearly, as it may have been missed,  although ideas have been mentioned, I have stated that until the treaty has been ratified (should it be) we won't be discussing said proposals. Only should this be ratified will we discuss them in any detail.

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on June 12, 2025, 04:43:24 PM

Quote from: Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on June 12, 2025, 04:41:40 PMAlso as I said earlier there is more than jsut this specific nation of Carossa to consider with thinking to accept this treaty. Which I have noticed that neither you or AD have mentioned or responded too.

Minister Somelieir, I look forward to knowing more about these joint projects if they are not secret as the King states. I, for one, do not have enough information as was expressed in a terpelaziun and here now, to vote in support of this treaty. [Restating should it be necessary]

I have already stated that I would rather the king not have mentioned the specific projects yet.

Also you seem so concerned about the ministry's position on not announcing thing before they are ready, which I am perfectly entitled to do by law, as was stated in the terp post you mentioned earlier.

And it isn't like you have refuted the reasons I have given to not announce things yet (for credibility of and for the sake of Talossa and trust in out nation from the international community). Can I ask you, what is the issue you have with this? It just sounds like you're throwing a tantrum for not being a part of the discussions and are refusing to listen to reason. And keep on making the same tired points without offering anything new.


Also, I made a whole post about other benefits to the internal infrastructure of Talossa and this as a good trial case for our nation which was just ignored. And is revelevant to the discussion of this treaty, in a broader sense.

I will also say, the king and we are working on this. I would rather the ideas not have been mentioned, but they are the same proposals I was thinking of when I made my earlier comments.

And as the king said, we are just being extra careful in our approach for both our reputation on the world stage, and to put forward proposals that we can back as a ministry and nation, instead of presenting half baked ideas to the nation which is not good for the credibility of ministry of foreign affairs or Talossa in general. And can make the ministry look foolish, announcing something ahead of time, when it isn't ready.

Also as I said earlier there is more than jsut this specific nation of Carossa to consider with thinking to accept this treaty. Which I have noticed that neither you or AD have mentioned or responded too.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on June 12, 2025, 04:16:25 PMThere are specific proposals for joint activities, but you won't tell us until after we've already voted?!

I don't understand the secrecy here. Finding out information about these people has been like pulling teeth, and I have no idea why.

The proposals are in too early stages to be made public, and need to discuss things with Carcosa and internally with cabinet before making any announcement, and until the treaty is ratified or rejected, no future discussions will be held on our end in the projects. It's not a fact of keeping it secret per se but it is more about being careful as it's better to present a completed proposal than a half baked idea to the Ziu and our people.

With getting information from them, I understand and share your frustrations there. But I hope that they respond satisfactory before this goes up for a vote.

Although I still think my earlier points make sense from a logistical stand point for the foreign ministry.

If I may, I think that adopting this treaty would be a great learning experience for Talossa. We are fairly new to having relations witb micronations, and honestly we do have issues with activity ourselves.

I believe we need to proceed with ratifying this, under the assumption that, it will help us to gauge what we are prepared for as a nation. And that we can help prepare for relations with larger and better known micronations one day. But right now we don't know what we may need or how that might go. So I believe this is a good way to test our current capabilities and help us to prepare for future relations.

Yes this may end up failing, but in that case there is nothing to stop the Ziu from revoking the treaty and the recognition in the future. However that is on the assumption of things failing.

We have had a proposal from them to discuss a specific joint venture already, although those details will be discussed and disclosed later if this is ratified.

Indications so far is that they are interested and are responding to people here, if a bit delayed. And are committed to making this work. As I believe we would should this be ratified.

It is a risk and an unknown, yes, but that will always be the case with international treaties so it's better to learn and make mistakes now with a smaller nation than later with a larger more well known one

[Disclaimer] Whilst I disagree with the legal need for this to be hoppered, The SoS disagrees so in this instance I will go along with what is asked to not delay the ratification, but will look into working with the SoS to clear things up for future cases. [end of disclaimer]