Quote from: Miestrâ Schiva, UrN on January 14, 2020, 10:08:51 PM
Ián P

said something on OldWitt about memorable Talossan judicial precedent. My favourite one would have to be from the 1992 case recorded in Ár Päts, where KR1 was actually convicted of treason (for attempting to secede Vuode), but was given no punishment as a "first offence".

I've just realised that we don't keep criminal records in Talossa.  Apart from reading through court cases or history books there isn't an actual record of Talossan convictions or "rap sheets".

Yeah, surely being on the side of saying pseudonyms are acceptable in lieu of providing a 'legal name' falls more on the side of Peculiar than Derivitist?

Anyway, the Bill as rewritten looks ok to me.

Quote from: Sevastáin Pinátsch on January 07, 2020, 05:32:34 PM
Regarding the other data points, sure, individually they appear harmless. However, in combination they aren't. Knowing the person's real name, city and state/province, age, and occupation makes it pretty trivial to track them down. This is called residual disclosure.

Also, let's bear in mind that immigration boards are not visible to the non-Talossan public and are not crawlable by search engine bots.  Residual disclosure is only an issue to fellow Talossans in this context, not to your macronational colleagues and neighbours.

Quote from: Sevastáin Pinátsch on January 07, 2020, 05:32:34 PM
Our current contact form is still a bait and switch. Talossa already has all an applicant's personal information by the time they are presented with the follow-up notice that it will be posted on Witt, in which case they might not have wanted us to have it in the first place. No fair warning.

OK.  Don't have an issue with adding the "fair warning" to the form prior to submission.

QuoteAge is relevant, yes, if the applicant is a minor. Does the public need to know if the person is 19 or 64? No.

Fair enough, to a degree.  The law only specifies that we need to know that a prospective meets a certain age to meet entry/voting requirements.  I could support a law saying something like the immigration form does not collect a full date of birth, but the applicant must confirm they will be 14 years old by the next general elections (might get tricky as that date is always tentative and fluid, but not totally impossible)... (or even just a clause stating the Minister shall collect the DOB, but it shall not be published, but he shall still certify that a Prospective meets the minimum age requirements).

QuoteRegarding the other data points, sure, individually they appear harmless. However, in combination they aren't. Knowing the person's real name, city and state/province, age, and occupation makes it pretty trivial to track them down. This is called residual disclosure.

I hear you.  I just disagree with the harsh limit you propose to impose on immigration authorities.  How about a softer version of the bill, something like

"The immigration application form shall include a visible notice alerting a prospective citizen that parts of the information provided on the immigration form shall be posted on a forum for other citizens to view.  The form must also include guidance notes to explain to the prospective citizen which data shall be published and which shall remain confidential per law*"

With this, we would still be free to "ask for the information" (ie: the "any and all" clause), but the prospective would have been alerted to the fact that anything they do say can be used...blah-di-blah.  The way you have written the bill makes it nearly impossible to ask in the first place.

(*per law, as it seems LEX.E.11 might not be the actual correct statute as section numbering changes may have been made already but not updated on Wiki.)


Also, let's deal with the age requirement as a separate Bill. 


((I want to work with you here.  Not against you.   But, for it to work, you will need to soften your stance and move towards the middle ground)).

Minor change.

Instead of saying "The Minister of Interior, working with the Seneschál shall ..."  this makes it "The Minister of Interior, working with the Seneschál, the Minister of Stuff, The Permanent Secretary to the Cabinet and/or the nation's Wittmeister shall..."

WHEREAS the Interior Ministry is currently embarked on a mission to make changes to improve all areas of immigration, and

WHEREAS El Lexhatx E.3 was written a bit of a while ago and does not take into consideration the current and modern workings of State and Government, so

THEREFORE be it enacted by the Ziu assembled that El Lexhatx E.3, which currently reads:

Quote
3. The Minister of Interior, working with the Seneschál, shall cause the prospective immigrant to be granted an account on Wittenberg, allowing said prospective immigrant to converse with the subjects of the Kingdom gathered there. The Interior Minister shall verify that the said account is fully-enabled, and that the candidate is able to communicate using this forum with the citizens of the Kingdom. The Interior Minister shall then begin a single thread on Wittenberg introducing the prospective immigrant to the nation. The "Why I am Interested in Becoming a Talossan" essay shall be published by the Interior Minister in this introduction. The Interior Minister is further directed to remind his fellow citizens from time to time that the initiation of new citizens into Talossa is a serious matter and that questioning a prospective citizen is a patriotic obligation of all who love their King and Country.

is hereby amended to read:

3. The Minister of Interior, working with the Seneschál, the Minister of Stuff, The Permanent Secretary to the Cabinet and/or the nation's Wittmeister shall cause the prospective immigrant to be granted an account on Wittenberg, allowing said prospective immigrant to converse with the subjects of the Kingdom gathered there. The Interior Minister shall verify that the said account is fully-enabled, and that the candidate is able to communicate using this forum with the citizens of the Kingdom. The Interior Minister shall then begin a single thread on Wittenberg introducing the prospective immigrant to the nation. The "Why I am Interested in Becoming a Talossan" essay shall be published by the Interior Minister in this introduction. The Interior Minister is further directed to remind his fellow citizens from time to time that the initiation of new citizens into Talossa is a serious matter and that questioning a prospective citizen is a patriotic obligation of all who love their King and Country.

WHEREAS from time to time El Lexhatx ends up with formatting anomalies as a result of major amendments, and

WHEREAS Resolution 21 of the 49th Cosa (Provincial Assignment Simplification Act) created such an anomaly, namely a leap in the numbering of Sections within Article E, and

WHEREAS to be more specific LEX.E.10 was stricken by that act and there now exists a "cavity" where E.10 once existed, and

WHEREAS I don't like it, so

THEREFORE be it enacted by the Ziu assembled that:

Section 11 of Article E of El Lexhatx is hereby renumbered as Section 10, and
Section 12 of Article E of El Lexhatx is hereby renumbered as Section 11, and
Section 13 of Article E of El Lexhatx is hereby renumbered as Section 12, and
Section 14 of Article E of El Lexhatx is hereby renumbered as Section 13.

FURTHERMORE all sub-sections shall be renumbered according to their new parent numbers.

EVEN MORE FURTHER the scribes' note written in El Lexhatx which currently fills the cavity left behind by the old and now deleted Section 10 shall be stricken, however following the renumbering enacted here today, the Ziu instructs the Scribe to make a new note between Sections 9 and 10 to inform future readers of El Lexhatx that (i) Section 10 has been amended more than once, (ii) 49RZ21 had stricken E.10 and its subsections in its entirety (iii) there did not exist a Section E.10 from the passage of 49RZ21 until the changes made by this Act here today, and (iv) the numbering gap was filled and all subsequent Section numbers amended by this Act here today.

1) "WHEREAS in actual practice all or most of a prospective's application is posted on Wittenberg under a thread name that names the applicant, and"

But, none of the sensitive data is posted.  Email and phone numbers don't get posted in those threads, even if the applicant answers 'yes' to the PhoneOK? and EmailOK? questions.  (Answering yes to those questions will have that data made available through the Chancery database, but not posted on Witt).

2) "WHEREAS some applicant information is arguably sensitive, and further include data that is irrelevant to the immigration process such as age, employment status, marital status, and"

First, the form does not contain a question on marital status. 

Second, the only time employment is mentioned is in the box saying "Tell us a little about yourself, what's important to you, your ambitions, your job, your hobbies"... This box also features a guidance note that says "There is a lot to do as a citizen of the Kingdom of Talossa. Knowing some of your interests will help the current citizens to suggest to you some of the active Talossan groups and projects that that you may wish to join." 

Are you seriously suggesting that immigration applications should contain near to no information about the applicant?

Third, age is 100% relevant to the application process.  We need to know if a person is of legal age to immigrate/vote/etc.

QuoteFurther, they must be cautioned not to submit personal information irrelevant to their application

What exactly do you mean here?  Again, is this tied to the thing about "tell us about yourself"?  I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am, but are you actually saying that applications should be considered where we know absolutely nothing about a person (all the way from basic interests and hobbies all the way up to including whether their name is actually real)?  Plus, I don't buy that anything filled into that box counts as "data" in the context of E.11.  Those statutes were written to protect a person's contact information.  Those clauses are about making sure your phone number and email don't end up floating about the internet, not about limiting us from asking you what your hobbies are.

Quoteadvised of their rights to privacy under El-Lexhátx E.11

This is already done, and has been the case for quite some time. 

The immigration application form contains the following phrases in its guidance notes:
- "Your mailing address (except for the city) will be kept confidential"
- "As with your mailing address, unless you request otherwise, your e-mail address will be kept confidential, for government use only"
- "Facebook and GoogleTalk ... This information is optional, however, and, like your other contact information, will not be published without your permission"

That said, it's not law that this needs to be included on the form, so there's nothing stopping a Minister (or even just a site admin) from removing those notes.  I don't mind having it codified to ensure that this info becomes fixed.


Don't get me wrong.  I sympathize with the thrust here.  I wrote a lot of the data privacy laws back when we literally didn't have any.  I agree, that stuff is important, but what it seems like your arguing for here isn't about data protection, but more towards banning data collection altogether.

I could get behind a law adding a notice to the form alerting prospectives that parts of an application will be posted on a forum.  That's fair.  I can support codifying the guidance notes in relation to LEX.E.11.  We already do it, so that's fine.  That bit in the middle about the "caution" (along with some of those WHEREAS statements) is nonsense though.

The changes are:

1. The mandatory limit for a Lexifore (LEX.E.4) changed from 40 days to 60.

2. A new limit of 30 days for when a prospective never makes a first post on Witt in the first place.

3. Removing the requirement for the SoS to notify following termination and making it the duty of Interior (The SoS hasn't done this for donkey years, so basically this last change is a 'make it say what we do instead of a do what we say' sort of thing).

WHEREAS El Lexhatx E.4 sets a strict mandatory limit on the immigration process where a prospective citizens' application is to be terminated if a citizenship application is not lodged with The Chancery after 40 days of the examination period beginning, and

WHEREAS sometimes a prospective citizen needs a little more time to settle in and become engaged, and

WHEREAS sometimes a little more time is needed for people to get to know each other, and

WHEREAS a recent case has shown that while rejecting an application too late doesn't really matter much, rejecting one too early may cause an issue, and

WHEREAS the law, oddly, doesn't make an explicit provision for terminating an application when the prospective never, ever shows up in the first place, so

THEREFORE be it enacted by the Ziu assembled that El Lexhatx E.4 is rewritten as follows:

An examination period shall begin with the prospective citizen's first posting to Wittenberg after an introduction by the Interior Minister. At any time at least fifteen days after the beginning of the examination period, any current citizen of Talossa may petition the Secretary of State requesting that a Royal Grant of Citizenship be issued to the prospective citizen. If no such petition is laid before the Secretary of State within the first sixty days of the examination period, the examination period shall end, the immigration process for the prospective citizen shall be terminated, and their Wittenberg account shall be disabled. In addition, if a prospective citizen fails to ever make a first posting to Wittenberg within thirty days of their introduction by the Interior Minister then the immigration process for the prospective citizen shall be terminated, and his Wittenberg account shall be disabled. Furthermore, whenever an immigration process is terminated then the Interior Minister shall notify the nation and the prospective citizen of the termination, and shall post a notification to the effect on Wittenberg.

Quote from: Lüc on December 28, 2019, 11:57:52 AM
We are at 49 registered members ... 1 is no longer a citizen.

Really weird.  I said a few days ago that I was kind of shocked to see Cresti Caveglhet on the list of striker-outers.  The fact that he registered an account of New Witt right before striking out makes it all the more odd.

Quote from: DNVercaria on December 29, 2019, 12:52:14 PM

Quote from: Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on December 04, 2019, 08:42:48 AM
It's really a shame that both Witt X and the different RepubliWitts were allowed to just go offline, and that they currently only exist in archive form on the computers of a few people.  At the time, the argument was that there were a bunch of conversations in the forum only available to registered users, where people in the Republic said stuff they didn't want others to know now, but it is going to be a big gap in our history going forward.  In time, the Republic will be known for what people said about it, not what it was.  That's a serious loss.

I can't see the hidden logic in this. The Republic would be known for what their citizens said and discussed in public and not for their password-protected stuff, which analogously might resemble people in public places, opposite to people in their living rooms and bedrooms, or some such. Researchers might regret the lack of access to those hidden informations, but still the Republic will be known for what it evidently was on the public side.

Anyway, given the required server software and passwords are still floating around, there are complete backups of the entire Witt XIIb content, AFAIK.

Yeah.  This.

Sometimes the desire to have 100% complete archives of everything borders on becoming an obsessive fetish.  We do not need a record of absolutely every single word that ever got uttered.

WHEREAS the Free Democrats were elected with a mandate to form the Council of Governors as stated in their manifesto for the 54th Cosa, and
WHEREAS the parties, the Free Democrats, Awakening and Magnifying Passion and the Peculiar Nationalist Party, entered into a governing coalition and as part of that have agreed upon a Programme for Government, and
WHEREAS the Programme for Government includes the mandated Free Democrat policy to form the Council of Governors, so


THEREFORE in accordance with El Lexhatx D.9.1., which states, "The Minister of the Interior shall call the Council into order no later than the first day of the first Clark of each Cosa term",

I, the Right Honourable Éovart Grischun, the Minister of the Interior for H.M. Government, hereby call the Council of Governors (el Cußéglh del Governadéirs) to order, on this the 19th day of December of the year 2019.

FURTHERMORE, I bring to the attention of the executive officers of the provinces the following text as quoted from the same statute as above, which reads: "Each provincial executive shall accept his or her seat in the Council no later than the last day of that Clark".

ADDITIONALLY, I say, the government appears to have zero authority over the actions of the council, however, the government requests of the council, once formed, the following mission and timetable:

a) REQUESTED MISSION FOR CG: As stated in H.M. Government's Programme for Government; to recommend a future for provincial governments, including suggestions for further mergers.

b) REQUESTED TIMETABLE FOR CG:

• Prior to first day of first Clark: Minister of Interior calls council to order
• No later than last day of first Clark: Provincial executives accept their seats on council
• Last day of the month that the first Clark concludes within:  If applicable, Minister of Interior to act in accordance with LEX.D.9.1.1 and LEX.D.9.5
• No later than the last day of the second Clark: The council to meet the obligations of LEX.E.9.2 and LEX.E.9.3
• No later than the first day of the fifth Clark: Forward final recommendations and reports to H.M. Government so that enough time exists for the government to Hopper and Clark any Bills resulting from those recommendations and reports in the final sixth Clark.

EVEN-MORE-SO the government reserves the option to seek a statutory instrument from the Ziu to enforce the sought mission and timetable.


Relevant Statutes:

Quote

El Lexhatx

D. The Government

9. The Ziu authorises the formation of a Council of Governors (el Cußéglh del Governadéirs in Talossan, abbreviated CG) to be comprised of each provincial executive, whether he or she is called "Governor" or not.

9.1. The Minister of the Interior shall call the Council into order no later than the first day of the first Clark of each Cosa term. Each provincial executive shall accept his or her seat in the Council no later than the last day of that Clark. (51RZ9)

9.1.1. If the executive of a province does not accept his or her seat by the specified time, the Minister of the Interior may appoint a resident of that province to the Council, who shall serve until the executive of that province accepts his or her seat. The Minister of the Interior shall not appoint him or herself to the Council in this manner. (51RZ9)

9.2. The Council shall meet and operate under rules of its own design. (51RZ9)

9.3. The Governor-General of Talossa shall be the leader of the Council, chosen by a majority of the Council members (who are the collective governors and provincial leaders of Talossa). In matters provincial, the Governor-General shall serve as a liaison to the Government of Talossa, to serve at the behest of the Council of Governors. (32RZ10) (51RZ9)

9.4. If a member of the Council ceases to be a provincial executive, he or she shall immediately lose his or her seat in the Council. The new executive of the province shall have one month to accept his or her seat in the Council, after which the Minister of the Interior may appoint a resident of that province to the Council, who shall serve until the new provincial executive accepts his or her seat. (51RZ9)

9.5. If a province is without an executive, the Minister of the Interior may appoint a resident of that province to the Council, who shall serve until the province elects an executive and that executive accepts his or her seat. (51RZ9)

Max.

Please never change, mate. 

I've not carried out any in-depth analysis and our voters have all decided to stay secret.  I have no concrete idea who is in our voter base.

If I am to hazard a guess though, I would first agree that the more moderate ex-Rump members came over.  The analysis by Luc is probably spot on as to where ex-RUMPers all landed.  The party's right wing core mostly went ZPT while the centrists within RUMP went AMP and PNP.

Second, though, there was a faction of the old Progressives that identified as neo-peculiarists.  I suspect that the PNP managed to get a few votes from that group of people.  If I'm right, then we are probably talking about ex-Progs that did not swing to the Mod-Rads following the Prog split.

As for our GOTV effort.  I'm not really willing to reveal our campaign strategy :P sorry.  We did a lot of work behind the scenes though.  It was an active campaign.