Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on Yesterday at 11:00:49 AMIt's simple, but still leaves party leaders in total control of who gets to be on the list, doesn't address any of Françal's concerns as to why you'd want a candidate-based voting system to begin with (link), and still leaves open the possibility of one person controlling the Cosă singlehandedly thanks to the abolition of seat limits. I'm also not a fan of returning to the 200-seat Cosă, nor do I think that new citizen seats would would "fix" the problem of in-term replacements in any way regardless of Cosă size.

Hmm.  Yeah, valid concerns.

I do think that you're going to probably have to leave party leaders in control of submitting a list, subject to their internal processes, since I don't know how else you'd do it.  But I don't think you'd have the possibility of one person controlling things, since there could be a minimum length for party lists.  But maybe still a seat limit, but just raised significantly higher for the formula?

Do you not like the new citizen seats?  They've been very popular.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on Yesterday at 11:00:49 AMEDIT: Instituting a minimum length for party lists would also bar independent candidates. Do we want that?

No, you're right.  Hm.  That's a tough nut to crack.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on Yesterday at 11:00:49 AMEDIT 2: By the way, what's your verdict on SPAV?

I'll take a look.

It's simple, but still leaves party leaders in total control of who gets to be on the list, doesn't address any of Françal's concerns as to why you'd want a candidate-based voting system to begin with (link), and still leaves open the possibility of one person controlling the Cosă singlehandedly thanks to the abolition of seat limits. I'm also not a fan of returning to the 200-seat Cosă, nor do I think that new citizen seats would would "fix" the problem of in-term replacements in any way regardless of Cosă size.

EDIT: Instituting a minimum length for party lists would also bar independent candidates. Do we want that?

EDIT 2: By the way, what's your verdict on SPAV? I can't think of simpler voter instructions than simply "choose everyone you like".

Maybe, yeah.  I think Luc has done a good job with the directions, generally, but maybe they need a closer look.

What do you think of what I suggested, though?  It's dead simple, would ensure that no one gets elected unless the voters chose a list with their name on it, and eliminates a lot of party leader power.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on Yesterday at 10:25:17 AMThey're made aware of the voting system and how it works and think of it from time to time thanks to the consciousness raised in them by their daily lives, I would imagine.  Everyone in Germany is voting that way, after all.  The news has explainers about it, and their friends are all voting with that same method, and so on.

Interestingly enough, this is not actually the case. Details on the system (including the number of votes and how and when splitting is allowed) depends on the state and county, and federal elections use a different system altogether. What they do have though are very detailed explanations of how to cast a valid ballot on the ballot itself, including the number of total votes, how vote splitting and cumulation works, how to remove candidates from lists, etc.

Perhaps a more in-depth explanation on how to cast ranked ballots would help with RCV, and likewise with other proposed systems.

Just a quick note that I mispronounced the name of Cézembre in the newest promo.  I spent some time trying to fix it, but I don't have time to record the whole thing again and re-edit it, so it will be running with the mistake in it.  I apologize to this gorgeous province.  Please take solace in your centrality to the promo as a uniquely amazing Talossan feature.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on Yesterday at 09:58:39 AMBut the choice they make is effectively only for a logo, since party statements and mailers are fluff, party lists are not-binding, and the current system only allows you to pick one party with no further input allowed. That is the reality, is it not?

I disagree.  In my experience, the campaign matters a lot.  An effective campaign message and outreach effort is the difference between 10% of the vote and 40%.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on Yesterday at 09:58:39 AM

QuoteGermans are living in Germany, and there are newspapers, magazine, television, advertisements, and physical mail that call their attention to their politics.  Their daily lives do, as well.  If the roads are rough and poorly maintained, people begin to notice and complain, and if they receive poor constituent services, then their vote might change.  If inflation goes up, they often are inclined to punish the incumbent administration for the rise in the cost of living.  Daily life makes it more likely their political awareness is heightened.

It's an accurate description of how people become politically involved, but none of this has anything to do with how people (both the politically involved and the uninvolved) manage to navigate the "complicated" voting system without any issues. That part remains unexplained.

They're made aware of the voting system and how it works and think of it from time to time thanks to the consciousness raised in them by their daily lives, I would imagine.  Everyone in Germany is voting that way, after all.  The news has explainers about it, and their friends are all voting with that same method, and so on.  Talossans don't have that, usually.

But it's hard for me to speak to these specific systems.  I'm not even saying Talossans can't do it... I'm just urging caution and a lot of care!

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on Yesterday at 09:58:39 AM

QuoteI do not think you should mock people who are relatively uninvolved and just like to belong and vote.

It's not mocking. The amount of copy-pasted invalid votes cast last election is genuinely concerning. A sudden spike in invalid votes should concern you, as well.

You might think you're not mocking, but it really reads that way... especially when I'm just asking us to think about the element of complication as one factor to consider.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on Yesterday at 09:46:01 AMMost people make their choices on the ballot based on the statements of the parties, the people listed on the ballot, and any mailers they receive.  You can sneer at that as "choosing a logo," but that's not what I said and it's not the reality.

But the choice they make is effectively only for a logo, since party statements and mailers are fluff, party lists are not-binding, and the current system only allows you to pick one party with no further input allowed. That is the reality, is it not?

QuoteGermans are living in Germany, and there are newspapers, magazine, television, advertisements, and physical mail that call their attention to their politics.  Their daily lives do, as well.  If the roads are rough and poorly maintained, people begin to notice and complain, and if they receive poor constituent services, then their vote might change.  If inflation goes up, they often are inclined to punish the incumbent administration for the rise in the cost of living.  Daily life makes it more likely their political awareness is heightened.

It's an accurate description of how people become politically involved, but none of this has anything to do with how people (both the politically involved and the uninvolved) manage to navigate the "complicated" voting system without any issues. That part remains unexplained.

QuoteI do not think you should mock people who are relatively uninvolved and just like to belong and vote.

It's not mocking. The amount of copy-pasted invalid votes cast last election is genuinely concerning. A sudden spike in invalid votes should concern you, as well.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on Yesterday at 09:31:51 AM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on Yesterday at 09:18:41 AMNo one's saying that people aren't smart,

It may not seem like it to you, but whenever you dismiss a voting system that lets voters have more say than just selecting a logo as "complicated", it comes across as incredibly condescending, and as if you don't trust people to even have that much of a say to begin with.

Most people make their choices on the ballot based on the statements of the parties, the people listed on the ballot, and any mailers they receive.  You can sneer at that as "choosing a logo," but that's not what I said and it's not the reality.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on Yesterday at 09:31:51 AM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on Yesterday at 09:18:41 AMThis is because the majority of Talossans aren't party activists or legislators or even very present on Wittenberg, and there's no forcible penetration of Talossa into their daily life. [...]

I don't know what your perception of the average German or the average Australian for that matter is, but we're not all party activists or legislators or even politically active either, and it still works somehow. Why might that be?

Germans are living in Germany, and there are newspapers, magazine, television, advertisements, and physical mail that call their attention to their politics.  Their daily lives do, as well.  If the roads are rough and poorly maintained, people begin to notice and complain, and if they receive poor constituent services, then their vote might change.  If inflation goes up, they often are inclined to punish the incumbent administration for the rise in the cost of living.  Daily life makes it more likely their political awareness is heightened.

I do not think you should mock people who are relatively uninvolved and just like to belong and vote.  It would be good to have people more interested and active, but the sneers and mockery is unnecessary.  It's also not going to help us actually figure out solutions.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on Yesterday at 09:18:41 AMNo one's saying that people aren't smart,

It may not seem like it to you, but whenever you dismiss a voting system that lets voters have more say than just selecting a logo as "complicated", it comes across as incredibly condescending, and as if you don't trust people to even have that much of a say to begin with.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on Yesterday at 09:18:41 AMThis is because the majority of Talossans aren't party activists or legislators or even very present on Wittenberg, and there's no forcible penetration of Talossa into their daily life. [...]

I don't know what your perception of the average German or the average Australian for that matter is, but we're not all party activists or legislators or even politically active either, and it still works somehow. Why might that be? Elections are voluntary in Germany, so the fact that being Talossan and participating in Talossan elections is also voluntary is not a satisfying answer, either.

Perhaps the problems run deeper than just Talossa being a voluntary association, when we have voters whose only contribution to the country is showing up every 9 months to submit a copy-pasted partially invalid public vote in the voting thread. Perhaps it would benefit the country if we made more of an effort to educate voters on the powers they have. But, I don't know.

No one's saying that people aren't smart, but you're not recognizing the facts on the ground.  Voters do have trouble with big changes to systems, and even years after we introduced RCV and despite explicit appeals from party leaders, a lot of people don't use it even when it would better represent their interests.

This is because the majority of Talossans aren't party activists or legislators or even very present on Wittenberg, and there's no forcible penetration of Talossa into their daily life.  We are a voluntary country, and nothing like inflation or postal service changes or road maintenance will force Talossa into the regular awareness of our electorate.  This isn't a criticism... it's praise, since this is a group of people who surpass most of the rest of the world in their civic duty.  Talossans have had to affirmatively choose to become Talossan in a way that few people do, and they must regularly maintain that choice through fulfilling their civic duties.  They have already reached a higher standard than most people in the world will ever meet.

I'm not saying your proposal is impossible, but I think you need to please be aware that it is complicated in an objective way, and if you want to persuade people to support it, we need to grapple with that.