Quote from: Mximo Malt on Today at 04:39:04 PMThe concept of "death of the author" really applies here.  His lived reality, decades in the making, has pretty clearly demonstrated that he can't control what Talossa is, that his creation does just fine without him.  It seems likely to outlive him.  I think he'll be happier about that than anything else.

With a populace as wary of him as modern RT seems to be, such machinations (should they even exist!) are unlikely in the extreme to succeed.  His hands will be on none of the levers of power.

This is an important point. Further, his ability to gain any new power are dependent on successful efforts at reconciliation. If there are concerns about potential disruptive behavior on Witt then one would simply remember we now have The Consequences Act passed last term.

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on Today at 04:37:26 PMWhat are you afraid of?

I'm afraid, if Ben doesn't accept that he acted like an asshole back then, exactly the same thing will happen when he gets back. I know that people can change over decades; I certainly have, and I have acted like all kind of bodily orifices in my time, and I like to think I've changed my ways. But I would require long-term evidence of such behaviour before I can feel comfortable. Such as: "Landing Pier style access for a number of months, just to show he plays nice these days".

Talossa is of course a voluntary entity, and I'm sure a lot of people here might prefer to have Ben back than me around, and they might just get that wish. But this isn't a "Ben's going to overthrow the state" thing (although I believe there are some people who'd love the restoration of his monarchy!). It's a "Ben will make Talossan life intolerable for me, personally".

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on Today at 04:37:26 PMI haven't forgotten that MY previous efforts to rejoin, or even look in on, this Kingdom (Landing Pier style) were unceremoniously and silently rejected

I don't know what this is referring to.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on Today at 05:13:55 PM

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on Today at 05:02:47 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 05:00:18 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:54:26 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 04:52:37 PMI am interested in its history. That's why I have been, among other things, researching Archaic Talossan as it was first created by Ben in December 1980. What you're doing has nothing to do with its history, and how dare you make these sweeping statements when you don't know the first thing about it?

Instead of Ben, who only ever saw the language he created as a marketing ploy to get nerds to join his kingdom, I would love to see the return of the second person ever to speak Talossan, and the first person to truly love it: Sir Tomás Gariçeir.

Well, looks like we're both in a pickle now, eh?

I have no idea what you mean by "pickle". Sir Tomás has always been well respected for his services to the language.

"Marketing ploy?"  You really do misunderstand him.  He loved languages, period.  He studied Russian, Icelandic, various others -- some of the ghelp's odder elements were retained from its Icelandic influence and inspiration, before the Berber mythology got folded in.  Asserting copyright was NEVER about the money, it was real-world efforts to recover control of "Talossa", something he could point to and say "I created this and deserve to be compensated for my work", as would any published creator.  This move of course ultimately failed.

I never said it was about money. I'm refering to this statement (source):

Quote from: King BenThe language was created to promote Talossa [...]. That is what the language exists for.

, which does leave a bitter taste in my mouth. I would hope that el Glheþ is more than merely a promotional vehicle for Talossa.

Evidently, I'm not the only one who read it like that (source):

Quote from: Tomás GariçeirIf things have degenerated so much that the Talossan language now exists "only to promote Talossa", then for Heaven's sake, somebody let me know and I will not waste another second working on it. The day that our venerable, beautiful, noble language becomes nothing more than a mere marketing tool to attract new members for our little club, whose use is restricted to the tiny handful of human beings in the world who are members of our little club and have received "authorisation", is the day I pack my bags and join the Republic.

I understand that you were there when it happened, so it's a bit silly for me to quote 20 year old forum posts at you, but in retrospect it's difficult not to read though these things and not get that impression.

20 Year old posts I had no access to, at that, {shrug}.

"Promotion" is a slippery concept, especially in the commercialized internet age.  Using Talossan for promotion was a feature to mention, in order to to attract other language nerds, to say "hey look, we have something other micronations don't!", promotion in that sense.

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on Today at 05:02:47 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 05:00:18 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:54:26 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 04:52:37 PMI am interested in its history. That's why I have been, among other things, researching Archaic Talossan as it was first created by Ben in December 1980. What you're doing has nothing to do with its history, and how dare you make these sweeping statements when you don't know the first thing about it?

Instead of Ben, who only ever saw the language he created as a marketing ploy to get nerds to join his kingdom, I would love to see the return of the second person ever to speak Talossan, and the first person to truly love it: Sir Tomás Gariçeir.

Well, looks like we're both in a pickle now, eh?

I have no idea what you mean by "pickle". Sir Tomás has always been well respected for his services to the language.

"Marketing ploy?"  You really do misunderstand him.  He loved languages, period.  He studied Russian, Icelandic, various others -- some of the ghelp's odder elements were retained from its Icelandic influence and inspiration, before the Berber mythology got folded in.  Asserting copyright was NEVER about the money, it was real-world efforts to recover control of "Talossa", something he could point to and say "I created this and deserve to be compensated for my work", as would any published creator.  This move of course ultimately failed.

I never said it was about money. I'm refering to this statement (source):

Quote from: King BenThe language was created to promote Talossa [...]. That is what the language exists for.

, which does leave a bitter taste in my mouth. I would hope that el Glheþ is more than merely a promotional vehicle for Talossa.

Evidently, I'm not the only one who read it like that (source):

Quote from: Tomás GariçeirIf things have degenerated so much that the Talossan language now exists "only to promote Talossa", then for Heaven's sake, somebody let me know and I will not waste another second working on it. The day that our venerable, beautiful, noble language becomes nothing more than a mere marketing tool to attract new members for our little club, whose use is restricted to the tiny handful of human beings in the world who are members of our little club and have received "authorisation", is the day I pack my bags and join the Republic.

I understand that you were there when it happened, so it's a bit silly for me to quote 20 year old forum posts at you, but in retrospect it's difficult to read though these threads and not get that impression.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 05:00:18 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:54:26 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 04:52:37 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:48:44 PMAnd you know what? You are NOT fit to be Ladintsch Naziunal if you are not interested in the history of the language. Promoting its use is one thing, but the history of the language is one of the most important aspects of it. There, I said it.

I am interested in its history. That's why I have been, among other things, researching Archaic Talossan as it was first created by Ben in December 1980. What you're doing has nothing to do with its history, and how dare you make these sweeping statements when you don't know the first thing about it?

Instead of Ben, who only ever saw the language he created as a marketing ploy to get nerds to join his kingdom, I would love to see the return of the second person ever to speak Talossan, and the first person to truly love it: Sir Tomás Gariçeir.

Well, looks like we're both in a pickle now, eh?

I have no idea what you mean by "pickle". Sir Tomás has always been well respected for his services to the language.

"Marketing ploy?"  You really do misunderstand him.  He loved languages, period.  He studied Russian, Icelandic, various others -- some of the ghelp's odder elements were retained from its Icelandic influence and inspiration, before the Berber mythology got folded in.  Asserting copyright was NEVER about the money, it was real-world efforts to recover control of "Talossa", something he could point to and say "I created this and deserve to be compensated for my work", as would any published creator.  This move of course ultimately failed.

Bear in mind, at the same time, the Kingdom's webmaster was refusing to release ownership of any web assets to Ben (even when redundant, dotcom versus dotorg) unless he was paid web developer wages for all of the "work" he'd previously volunteered in service for the Kingdom.  There was a LOT of "tit for tat" going on, and at this remove who started it doesn't really matter.  Just realize it was NOT one-sided.  It was never one-sided.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on Today at 04:37:38 PMI have asked for a word to be coined for this new approach, and we intend to do them fairly regularly.

It could be as simple as Seßiun Rustitsch (Informal Session).

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on Today at 04:37:26 PM

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 27, 2025, 04:56:10 PMI just want to circle back on this bit:

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 26, 2025, 03:34:57 PMHis concern of course is to not be subjected to an overtly hostile environment, there being easily a half dozen Quator Astor citizens still at least semi-active here who despise him viscerally; his impression from his last attempt at reconciliation was that those people were still "in charge" and absolutely blacklisting him. 

"Quator Astor" is a misspelling of "Qator Itrìns", Talossan for "Four Stars", i.e. the flag of the Talossan Republic. When Ben last tried to come back, the Seneschal was in fact a former Talossan Republican, i.e. me. I was not convinced he had changed in any way that would mean I could be safe in a political community with him, and I'm still not.

So am I to take from this that Ben wants to come back now because his former political enemies were out of power and he thinks they're no longer a threat to his plans for Talossa? That's a hint on how to take seriously the question of whether there would be any "forgiveness" or "bygones being bygones".

First off, my knowledge of ghelp is pretty minimal.  I remember it as astor, maybe there was a newsletter that went by that name or something?  In any case, my bad.  Recall that I had no direct access to things Republican.

Next off, your bias is really showing here, in that you PRESUME he has nefarious "plans", and you are putting the worst possible spin on him simply not wanting to walk into an unremittingly hostile environment!  As it was back then!  Who would want to do that?  Some hostility, given the polarization around his very existence, is expected.  Occasional landmines can be defused; clearing an entire field might be too much of an ask. 

Heck, I'm surprised I've caught as little flak as I have, in returning.  I haven't forgotten that MY previous efforts to rejoin, or even look in on, this Kingdom (Landing Pier style) were unceremoniously and silently rejected. By perhaps the same administration?  But I'm here now, so that can be (and is) forgiven.

The concept of "death of the author" really applies here.  His lived reality, decades in the making, has pretty clearly demonstrated that he can't control what Talossa is, that his creation does just fine without him.  It seems likely to outlive him.  I think he'll be happier about that than anything else.

With a populace as wary of him as modern RT seems to be, such machinations (should they even exist!) are unlikely in the extreme to succeed.  His hands will be on none of the levers of power.

What are you afraid of?

Furthermore, ambition requires energy, something that becomes scarcer for someone in their sixties, as he and I are!

PREACH, BROTHER!

I have asked for a word to be coined for this new approach, and we intend to do them fairly regularly.

As much as possible, we need to begin expanding the ways in which we interact with each other. We have to move beyond words on a screen and start seeing each other's faces. This will help bridge gaps as we begin to see each other's common humanity.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 27, 2025, 04:56:10 PMI just want to circle back on this bit:

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 26, 2025, 03:34:57 PMHis concern of course is to not be subjected to an overtly hostile environment, there being easily a half dozen Quator Astor citizens still at least semi-active here who despise him viscerally; his impression from his last attempt at reconciliation was that those people were still "in charge" and absolutely blacklisting him. 

"Quator Astor" is a misspelling of "Qator Itrìns", Talossan for "Four Stars", i.e. the flag of the Talossan Republic. When Ben last tried to come back, the Seneschal was in fact a former Talossan Republican, i.e. me. I was not convinced he had changed in any way that would mean I could be safe in a political community with him, and I'm still not.

So am I to take from this that Ben wants to come back now because his former political enemies were out of power and he thinks they're no longer a threat to his plans for Talossa? That's a hint on how to take seriously the question of whether there would be any "forgiveness" or "bygones being bygones".

First off, my knowledge of ghelp is pretty minimal.  I remember it as astor, maybe there was a newsletter that went by that name or something?  In any case, my bad.  Recall that I had no direct access to things Republican.

Next off, your bias is really showing here, in that you PRESUME he has nefarious "plans", and you are putting the worst possible spin on him simply not wanting to walk into an unremittingly hostile environment!  As it was back then!  Who would want to do that?  Some hostility, given the polarization around his very existence, is expected.  Occasional landmines can be defused; clearing an entire field might be too much of an ask. 

Heck, I'm surprised I've caught as little flak as I have, in returning.  I haven't forgotten that MY previous efforts to rejoin, or even look in on, this Kingdom (Landing Pier style) were unceremoniously and silently rejected. By perhaps the same administration?  But I'm here now, so that can be (and is) forgiven.

The concept of "death of the author" really applies here.  His lived reality, decades in the making, has pretty clearly demonstrated that he can't control what Talossa is, that his creation does just fine without him.  It seems likely to outlive him.  I think he'll be happier about that than anything else.

With a populace as wary of him as modern RT seems to be, such machinations (should they even exist!) are unlikely in the extreme to succeed.  His hands will be on none of the levers of power.

What are you afraid of?

Furthermore, ambition requires energy, something that becomes scarcer for someone in their sixties, as he and I are!

For the benefit of all members, I would like to elaborate on the matter of the quasi-Living Cosă to be held in conjunction with the State Opening.

It was determined that holding a full Living Cosă on the 11th would be in breach of existing provisions concerning the minimum advance notice that needs to be given to MZs. However, nothing forbids the Cosă from holding some other kind of live meeting to debate legislation anyway.

A related issue, though, is whether or not binding votes can be cast during a quasi-Living Cosă; but the only requirement for the manner of holding and casting Clark votes is found in OrgLaw VII.9, which states:

QuoteEvery MC and Senator may vote on every bill in every Clark through reasonable means determined by the Secretary of State, and MCs and senators will have until the end of business on the twenty-first day of the calendar month to submit their votes to the Secretary of State. [...]

Since I am happy to consider a voice vote during such a meeting a reasonable mean of voting, MZs will be allowed to cast Clark votes at the quasi-Living Cosă, and I will either be in attendance to record them, or delegate someone else  to do so, so that those same MZs do not need to enter their votes using the Database or Wittenberg.

The only differences with a normal Living Cosă, as far as I can tell, will be that proxy voting will not be allowed, and that the final tally on bills will not be taken at the end of the voice vote during the Living Cosă, but at the regularly scheduled "end of business" on January 21st.