Suggested amendment to fix the Dandelions issue

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

Change OrgLaw X.3 to read:

Children born after 1 January 1989/X, one (or both) of whose biological or adoptive parents is a Talossan citizen at the time of the birth ("Dandelions") shall automatically be granted Talossan citizenship when they register themselves with the Secretary of State on or after their 14th birthday.

... and delete El Lexhatx E.13.

[Ián Tamorán S.H.]

Change OrgLaw X.3 to read:

Children born after 1 January 1989/X, one (or both) of whose biological or adoptive parents is a Talossan citizen at the time of the birth ("Dandelions") shall automatically be granted Talossan citizenship when they register themselves with the Secretary of State on or after their 14th birthday.

... and delete El Lexhatx E.13.

I have two problems here:

1. A child (i.e. under the age of, of 14) cannot be assumed to have knowledge of or to have made either consent or refusal to Talossan citizenship - a minor cannot have such obligations thrust upon them without their explicit consent. Therefore they cannot (in justice) be penalised for not attending to an obligation of which they had no knowledge - and could not (under the restrictions relating to minors) have had. "Ignorance of the law is no defence" may only be used if the alleged offender could have had knowledge of that law. So we can NOT make a dandelion into a citizen without their explicit permission - and we cannot "punish" a dandelion for not making an application unless we are certain that the dandelion was explicitly informed of his/her aughts after their 14th birthday.

2. "Biological" parent makes those who are adopted or placed in a pro-Talossan but (biologically) unrelated environment of upbringing (adopted, in a step-family, fleeing persecution from another country, etc.) to be denied dandelion rights, as are his pro-Talossan guardians in loco parentis.

So, NO. Therefor:

1) A dandelion should be any child under the age of 14 for whom any legal guardian has requested that status, and

2) A dandelion cannot be removed from citizenship unless (a) that is requested by a legal guardian (for an existing dandelion), or (b) the dandelion upon reaching the age of 14 is explicitly informed of Talossan law, and has provided proof that this information was received, or ( c) the dandelion, upon reaching the age of 14 or more specifically, in their own right, requests to be NOT a Talossan citizen. Note that any grown-up-dandelion who attempts to vote in any referendum (etc.) shall be deemed to have had full knowledge of Talossan law starting from the date upon which that attempted vote is cast. It is up to some, yet to be discussed, subsequent Talossan law to determine whether or not such a vote counts.... (I would suggest, in the first instance, not - but that is a different discussion).

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I have two problems here:

1. A child (i.e. under the age of, of 14) cannot be assumed to have knowledge of or to have made either consent or refusal to Talossan citizenship - a minor cannot have such obligations thrust upon them without their explicit consent. Therefore they cannot (in justice) be penalised for not attending to an obligation of which they had no knowledge - and could not (under the restrictions relating to minors) have had. "Ignorance of the law is no defence" may only be used if the alleged offender could have had knowledge of that law. So we can NOT make a dandelion into a citizen without their explicit permission - and we cannot "punish" a dandelion for not making an application unless we are certain that the dandelion was explicitly informed of his/her aughts after their 14th birthday.

It is creepy to make the minor children of uninterested strangers into a part of our project without their consent or knowledge.  If we decide to stop doing that, it's not a "punishment."

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

1. A child (i.e. under the age of, of 14) cannot be assumed to have knowledge of or to have made either consent or refusal to Talossan citizenship - a minor cannot have such obligations thrust upon them without their explicit consent. Therefore they cannot (in justice) be penalised for not attending to an obligation of which they had no knowledge ... So we can NOT make a dandelion into a citizen without their explicit permission

I utterly agree with the first sentence, and the last - but the middle makes no sense in context. What I propose to delete is Lexhatx E.13, which currently entitles parents to "sign up" their kids as Talossan citizens precisely without consent in the manner you just described - "Any minor child or ward of a Talossan citizen shall be made a citizen on simple application of the Talossan parent or guardian."

The question seems to be a simple one: should children of Talossan citizens be automatically granted citizenship at birth (jus sanguinis)? The OrgLaw as it stands says YES, which has led to the "trapped Dandelions" problem. My suggestion eliminates this - IMHO Talossan citizenship should always be inheritable but not inherited automatically.

[Tric'hard Lenxheir]

To me this seems like a simple problem with a simple answer. Yes children of Talossan citizens are automatically granted citizenship IF AND ONLY IF THEY ASK for full citizenship rights when they turn 14. I'm sure there are situations that exist right now where children of Talossan citizens don't even know that Talossa exists and as such they are unlikely to request full citizenship but in the instances where children are aware of and interested in becoming citizens it should be automatically granted with full rights and privileges allowed by Talossan law.

[Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP]

To me this seems like a simple problem with a simple answer. Yes children of Talossan citizens are automatically granted citizenship IF AND ONLY IF THEY ASK for full citizenship rights when they turn 14. I'm sure there are situations that exist right now where children of Talossan citizens don't even know that Talossa exists and as such they are unlikely to request full citizenship but in the instances where children are aware of and interested in becoming citizens it should be automatically granted with full rights and privileges allowed by Talossan law.

Isn't that what this does, though?

underlining for emphasis:

Change OrgLaw X.3 to read:

Children born after 1 January 1989/X, one (or both) of whose biological or adoptive parents is a Talossan citizen at the time of the birth ("Dandelions") shall automatically be granted Talossan citizenship when they register themselves with the Secretary of State on or after their 14th birthday.

... and delete El Lexhatx E.13.

So they still need to register themselves to obtain citizenship, no?