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Author Topic: Reserved seats for new citizens  (Read 1371 times)

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Reserved seats for new citizens
« on: December 27, 2021, 04:23:00 PM »
On the one hand: the old system whereby political parties could give seats to whoever they wanted enabled corruption and meant no democratic accountability of who got in the Cosa.

On the other hand: it allowed new citizens to get involved in national legislation right away, should they want to.

POSSIBLE COMPROMISE: reserve a certain amount of seats in the Cosa (7.5% of the Cosa, 15 out of the current 200? or in addition to the current 200?) for the Secretary of State (not the parties) to allocate to people who immigrated since the last election, maximum of 1.5% of the Cosa per person. This is not dissimilar to how other countries have reserved seats which are nominated (not elected) to bring minority or marginalised groups into the legislature. So random newbie turns up, SoS says "here are your 3 seats". If we run out of seats because more than 5 newbies show up, the SoS can redistribute the allocations. I doubt we'd get more than 15 per term.

This would allow newbies to get involved right away without having to pledge allegiance to one or another political party right off the bat. It would mean influence over legislation, and possibly over VoCs, but not disproportionately so (perhaps the allocated seats wouldn't get to vote on the VoC?) However it would need an OrgLaw amendment to IV.1 and IV.2.

Comments?
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Offline xpb

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2021, 06:49:06 PM »
On the one hand: the old system whereby political parties could give seats to whoever they wanted enabled corruption and meant no democratic accountability of who got in the Cosa.

On the other hand: it allowed new citizens to get involved in national legislation right away, should they want to.

POSSIBLE COMPROMISE: reserve a certain amount of seats in the Cosa (7.5% of the Cosa, 15 out of the current 200? or in addition to the current 200?) for the Secretary of State (not the parties) to allocate to people who immigrated since the last election, maximum of 1.5% of the Cosa per person. This is not dissimilar to how other countries have reserved seats which are nominated (not elected) to bring minority or marginalised groups into the legislature. So random newbie turns up, SoS says "here are your 3 seats". If we run out of seats because more than 5 newbies show up, the SoS can redistribute the allocations. I doubt we'd get more than 15 per term.

This would allow newbies to get involved right away without having to pledge allegiance to one or another political party right off the bat. It would mean influence over legislation, and possibly over VoCs, but not disproportionately so (perhaps the allocated seats wouldn't get to vote on the VoC?) However it would need an OrgLaw amendment to IV.1 and IV.2.

Comments?

This could work -- if checks and balances are maintained, such as having a monarch (king or queen) not subject to standing for election -- vs a president elected each 5 years (even if they have a different title assigned)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2021, 07:41:03 PM by xpb »

Offline C. M. Siervicül

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2021, 07:25:50 AM »
Comments?
I like this idea! This makes sense not just as a way to get people involved right away, but also to make sure that citizens who have not yet had the opportunity to vote have at least a minimal amount of representation in the Cosa.

I would suggest allowing the SoS to give new citizens one seat each, upon the request of the citizen, and I would probably add them to the existing 200 (so you don’t have to take seats away from anyone, though we’d probably need to check with the Chancery to see how easily the database can accommodate additional seats). Three seats would overrepresent new citizens compared to people who actually voted in the last election, which is why I suggest only one:  I don’t think new citizens should get more of a voice in the Cosa than voters. Even two seats would overrepresent them if election turnout exceeds 100, but one seat would be fine until we get turnouts of over 200 voters, at which point we could work something out else out.

Offline Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2021, 10:45:38 AM »
The database can accommodate more than 200 seats. I agree that one seat per new citizen is still a good way to get involved.
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Offline C. M. Siervicül

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2021, 10:53:46 AM »
Oh yeah, on the question of whether the newbie seats should be able to vote on the VoC, I can see arguments both ways. On the one hand, if we have a lot of new citizens who feel unrepresented by the current government, maybe they should have a say in whether to dissolve the Cosa and hold new elections early. On the other hand, our elections aren’t that far apart anyways and maybe it’s reasonable to expect them to spend a few months getting acclimated before giving them the power to potentially bring down the government.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 11:00:33 AM by C. M. Siervicül »

Offline Breneir Tzaracomprada

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2021, 01:09:44 PM »
What about making the seats consultative? New citizen consultative seats can debate and even submit to the hopper, perhaps, but not vote. So, 200 regular and however many consultative seats needed. And maybe their consultative status would last for one full Cosa session.

Offline Ian Plätschisch

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2021, 01:49:30 PM »
Hopper submissions and debates are already open to all.

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2021, 02:38:40 PM »
Very good to see that there's some cross party buy-in for this idea!

So let's get to specifics. Let's look at current OrgLaw IV.1:

Quote
Cosa is the national legislative assembly, and is composed of 200 seats apportioned among political parties based on their performance in the General Election. It may administer itself as it sees fit.

The bolded bit is the part which would right now make this suggestion unconstitutional. So - how should we change it?
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Offline Breneir Tzaracomprada

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2021, 03:19:55 PM »
Hopper submissions and debates are already open to all.

Someone who is not a member of the Cosa, Senate, or the King can not submit to the Hopper if I recall correctly. So not open to all.
I am trying to ensure that consultative members of the Cosa would be able to do so as well. 

I am referencing Article VII, Section 5 of the OrgLaw.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 03:21:32 PM by Breneir Tzaracomprada »

Offline Breneir Tzaracomprada

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2021, 03:31:37 PM »
Very good to see that there's some cross party buy-in for this idea!

So let's get to specifics. Let's look at current OrgLaw IV.1:

Quote
Cosa is the national legislative assembly, and is composed of 200 seats apportioned among political parties based on their performance in the General Election. It may administer itself as it sees fit.

The bolded bit is the part which would right now make this suggestion unconstitutional. So - how should we change it?

If there are few cascading effects of the change then would it be simplest to just add language saying "and one additional seat per new citizen within the current Cosa session."

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2021, 03:34:45 PM »
Someone who is not a member of the Cosa, Senate, or the King can not submit to the Hopper if I recall correctly.

You don't recall correctly.


Quote from: El Lexhatx H.6.1
6.1. All citizens of Talossa are entitled to participate fully in discussions and debates in the Hopper, within the bounds of law and of the decisions of the administering and presiding authorities of the Hopper. Any citizen may submit a draft of legislation to the Hopper, though these shall not be considered to be "legislative proposals" until sponsored by one or more individuals authorised to submit legislative proposals under Organic Law VII.5.

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Offline Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2021, 03:35:20 PM »
Very good to see that there's some cross party buy-in for this idea!

So let's get to specifics. Let's look at current OrgLaw IV.1:

Quote
Cosa is the national legislative assembly, and is composed of 200 seats apportioned among political parties based on their performance in the General Election. It may administer itself as it sees fit.

The bolded bit is the part which would right now make this suggestion unconstitutional. So - how should we change it?

If there are few cascading effects of the change then would it be simplest to just add language saying "and one additional seat per new citizen within the current Cosa session."

This sounds excellent.
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Offline Breneir Tzaracomprada

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2021, 03:39:53 PM »
Someone who is not a member of the Cosa, Senate, or the King can not submit to the Hopper if I recall correctly.

You don't recall correctly.


Quote from: El Lexhatx H.6.1
6.1. All citizens of Talossa are entitled to participate fully in discussions and debates in the Hopper, within the bounds of law and of the decisions of the administering and presiding authorities of the Hopper. Any citizen may submit a draft of legislation to the Hopper, though these shall not be considered to be "legislative proposals" until sponsored by one or more individuals authorised to submit legislative proposals under Organic Law VII.5.

Is this a conflict? Or an extension of the OrgLaw?

Offline Breneir Tzaracomprada

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2021, 03:40:31 PM »
Very good to see that there's some cross party buy-in for this idea!

So let's get to specifics. Let's look at current OrgLaw IV.1:

Quote
Cosa is the national legislative assembly, and is composed of 200 seats apportioned among political parties based on their performance in the General Election. It may administer itself as it sees fit.

The bolded bit is the part which would right now make this suggestion unconstitutional. So - how should we change it?

If there are few cascading effects of the change then would it be simplest to just add language saying "and one additional seat per new citizen within the current Cosa session."

This sounds excellent.

Thanks S:reu Davis for furthering the discussion. That feedback means a lot. [No snark intended]
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 03:43:33 PM by Breneir Tzaracomprada »

Offline Breneir Tzaracomprada

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2021, 03:42:29 PM »
If it is that simple I can go ahead and prepare an amendment for submission to the Hopper. This is definitely a wonderful idea.