TSFFWS - Dune and Intentional Social Change

[Antonio Montagnha, Ed. D.]

Talossan Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Whiskey Society (TSFFWS) is here by re-established. Membership is free, casual, and based exclusively on participation.

An initial discussion:

Dune and Intentional Social Change

Earlier this year a second attempt was made to bring the story of Dune to a cinematic environment by Denis Villeneuve. The decision was made to split the complicated first novel into two films. Thus, the first film felt intentionally like half a film, a drawback to this approach, but an understandable one given the complexity of the source material, and the narrative failure of the David Lynch Dune movie. I say narrative failure as Lynch's film was visually entertaining and fascinating, yet the narrative veered so far from the source material as to have lost its meaning.

In the most recent adaptation of Dune some critics complained that it was a movie that once again glorified the idea of a white male Messiah rescuing native people from oppression. Anyone who would write that clearly doesn't understand the entirety of the initial trilogy of the Dune story, which is most aggressively anti-white male Messiah of any kind, and clearly shows the consequences of indulging in such fantasy.

For me the most important elements of the original dune trilogy, and yes I know there's more but they're so far removed for me from the original narrative as not to inspire my interest, was the thoughtful meditation on how religion is the handmaiden of political power, whether that power be established or of a revolutionary nature. It explored the incredible danger a movement or society encountered when it engages religious mythmaking as either a pathway to power or a way to safeguard power once attained.

The other most prominent feature of the Dune trilogy is the portrayal of how ecology and climate can directly and deeply affect culture, and cultural values. Some psychologist and developmental neurologists have pointed to the idea that one of the hardest things to do is to step outside of yourself and try to understand why you act the way that you do; essentially a conscious being trying to understand their own subconscious which is of course a difficult task. Cultures when they are at their best do this type of reflection as well, they can step outside of all of the variables that have shaped informed them and figure out what is worth keeping and what must be changed or outright exercised in order to advance as an ethical and surviving people.

I am curious as to if you think it's possible to do this. To be sure there are individuals who can step outside of their culture's frame of reference or outside of the narrative of those in control of the culture (for more on that please see the writings of Antonio Gramsci), but can an entire culture do that, or does it take a change of the cultural environment? In other words, for a culture to change does it have to undergo such a massive crisis that it has no choice but to change, where even that change is still being driven by the environment, or can it change by thoughtful choice and intention? Are we do doomed to be a reflection of our environment forever?

[anglatzara]

Talossan Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Whiskey Society (TSFFWS) is here by re-established.

What do you mean, "re-established"? We never went away! I hereby hand over the reins to you. What's the whisky of the week? I'm OK with the added "fantasy", but please remove the "e" from whisky!

Blessings,

Ián

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

That's on me. I told him that I wasn't sure you guys were still extant and that he should just get it going again.

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

I am delighted to see the TSFFWS is back.

Relatedly, to celebrate, I had a Bulleit Bourbon while watching the latest episodes of Star Trek: Picard and Halo on Paramount Plus.

[Antonio Montagnha, Ed. D.]

My apologies!  Does the society have a dedicated message board, or web presence?

Talossan Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Whiskey Society (TSFFWS) is here by re-established.

What do you mean, "re-established"? We never went away! I hereby hand over the reins to you. What's the whisky of the week? I'm OK with the added "fantasy", but please remove the "e" from whisky!

Blessings,

Ián

[Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat]

I've been partial to Snarly Yow high rye whiskey (this one is spelled with an "e") by Two Trees lately.

To answer your question, Antonio, I think it's more common for individuals to be able to step out of their culture framework, however time and extreme circumstance (*cough*covid*cough*) can definitely shift a culture. Though by that point it's just the new cultural framework, not necessarily a study of a culture on it's own terms instead of being colored by your own preconceived notions.

I was once listening to a podcast about shamanism, and how it was only logical that nature/"earth" based religions appeal to us, because we evolved in the natural rhythms of the Earth and our environment. I think just based on the fact that we are evolved to our environment and continue to evolve to our environment, I don't think there is any escaping it.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I had a Bulleit Bourbon

Bad choice!

while watching the latest episodes of Star Trek: Picard and Halo on Paramount Plus.

Good choice!

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

In the most recent adaptation of Dune some critics complained that it was a movie that once again glorified the idea of a white male Messiah rescuing native people from oppression. Anyone who would write that clearly doesn't understand the entirety of the initial trilogy of the Dune story, which is most aggressively anti-white male Messiah of any kind, and clearly shows the consequences of indulging in such fantasy.

The new Dune movie was amazing but also extremely about the nobleman white Messiah parachuting in to save the darker-skinned indigenous people.  Hard to blame people for observing that and being bothered by it, even if the overall arc of the series suggests more complexity.  The movie was a piece of art meant to be watched and enjoyed as a coherent whole, and so while it deserves to be watched with some context, it even more deserves to be judged on its own merits. 

It wasn't a straightforward text-to-screen thing, since they put in scenes and dialogue and symbolism that wasn't in the original, so they could have fixed that flaw a bit.  I know they were trying to keep it as true to the text in a larger sense as they could, so I understand why they didn't address it, but that does merit some scorn.

In other words, for a culture to change does it have to undergo such a massive crisis that it has no choice but to change, where even that change is still being driven by the environment, or can it change by thoughtful choice and intention? Are we do doomed to be a reflection of our environment forever?

I think environmental determinism has fallen out of favor since the heyday of Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel, but there's a lot to be said for that broad view of history in explaining away some of the most fundamental aspects of global inequality.  It sucks that so much of our world can be explained by regional geographical axes, but that does seem to be the case for a long time.  But it also seems to point to an endpoint of that view -- maybe in the recent past, maybe in the future.  Population density can explain an enormous amount, but as technology lessens that advantage, there's no reason to think that it will continue forever.  Rome could spawn Ciceros and Caesars aplenty, but now Ciceros can wage words and Caesars can wage wars with less consideration of geography.

We'll probably have the answer in like a century or so.

[anglatzara]

Alas, we used to, but we no longer have. And no need for apologies, even though the TSF&WS was never dissolved, it doesn't mean it has been active in any meaningful way. Anyhow, you are its glorious leader now.

My apologies!  Does the society have a dedicated message board, or web presence?

Talossan Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Whiskey Society (TSFFWS) is here by re-established.

What do you mean, "re-established"? We never went away! I hereby hand over the reins to you. What's the whisky of the week? I'm OK with the added "fantasy", but please remove the "e" from whisky!

Blessings,

Ián

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

I had a Bulleit Bourbon

Bad choice!

while watching the latest episodes of Star Trek: Picard and Halo on Paramount Plus.

Good choice!

Ok. My usual choice for whiskey and sci-fi pairings is 1792. Being from Bardstown, bourbon capital of the world, it usually has to be from my home region.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Bulleit used to be so good, but like five years ago they changed the blend.  It's a sad story.  I'm more of a gin man generally, but even I could taste the tragedy.

[GV]

I am delighted to see the TSFFWS is back.

Relatedly, to celebrate, I had a Bulleit Bourbon while watching the latest episodes of Star Trek: Picard and Halo on Paramount Plus.

What do you think of 'Picard'?  Is it worth getting Paramount Plus just to watch that?

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I am delighted to see the TSFFWS is back.

Relatedly, to celebrate, I had a Bulleit Bourbon while watching the latest episodes of Star Trek: Picard and Halo on Paramount Plus.

What do you think of 'Picard'?  Is it worth getting Paramount Plus just to watch that?

I don't know about Picard, but I got Paramount Plus just to watch Star Trek: Discovery and I have no regrets at all.

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

I am delighted to see the TSFFWS is back.

Relatedly, to celebrate, I had a Bulleit Bourbon while watching the latest episodes of Star Trek: Picard and Halo on Paramount Plus.

What do you think of 'Picard'?  Is it worth getting Paramount Plus just to watch that?

I think so. Paramount Plus is Star Trek Central.
I am enjoying the second season of Picard much more than the first. And I am actually enjoying Season 2 of Picard more than ST: Discovery. Of course, I grew up on TNG so I may be biased.

[Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB]

I am delighted to see the TSFFWS is back.

Relatedly, to celebrate, I had a Bulleit Bourbon while watching the latest episodes of Star Trek: Picard and Halo on Paramount Plus.

What do you think of 'Picard'?  Is it worth getting Paramount Plus just to watch that?

I think so. Paramount Plus is Star Trek Central.
I am enjoying the second season of Picard much more than the first. And I am actually enjoying Season 2 of Picard more than ST: Discovery. Of course, I grew up on TNG so I may be biased.

The 2nd season of Picard is very well done and it gives me all "the feels" from TNG when I was in High School.