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Joint Statement on Solicitation

Started by Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP, April 22, 2022, 10:47:56 AM

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Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP

The Free Democrats of Talossa and el Parti da Reformaziun denounce in the strongest possible terms recent attempts by the leader of the Talossan National Congress to poach members from either of these parties. We attach as evidence a personal message sent by TNC leader Brenéir Tzaracomprada to former PdR MC Caleb Frenibuerg, calling on him to "change the government" by defecting in the upcoming Seneschal election..

We note that Senator Tzaracomprada, prior to the election, also attempted to entice at least one Free Democrat candidate to defect. Doing so before the election might well be considered fair play. But doing so after seats have already been assigned, in an effort to override the results of the election, is an affront to the voters, who chose the party list they supported most based in part on the members contained thereupon. The Cosa is the foundation of Talossan democracy. MCs bolting for other parties before the Cosa has even opened its session would amount to deception of the voters – is this the kind of behavior the TNC wishes to endorse and even encourage?

In addition, vague attempts to lure MCs away with implicit promises of reward are at best borderline unethical. Either negotiate a government in explicit terms or do not. Vagaries offer little to the person whose loyalties you are attempting to steal, but place the risk entirely on them.

This sort of politics has been rare in Talossa for many years – surely we should want to avoid a return to the hyperpartisan atmosphere of the KR1 era.

Signed,

Mic'haglh Autófil
Leader, Parti da Reformaziun

@Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM
Leader, Free Democrats of Talossa
Minister of Technology
The Long Fellow, Royal Talossan College of Arms
Specialist, Els Zuávs da l'Altahál Rexhitál
Zirecteir Naziunal, Parti da Reformaziun

Breneir Tzaracomprada

#1
This joint statement only indicates you are threatened by my actions.

I will reach out to anyone (at any time after their immigrating to the Kingdom) that I want to solicit their support for the TNC and its policies.

It will be for that person to consider and respond.

Your attempt at bullying will be treated as such and ignored.




Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 22, 2022, 10:51:50 AM
[...]

Senator, keep in mind that S:reu Frenibuerg ran for an explicitly Republican party, and was elected into the Cosă in that capacity. Personally, I don't really get why you expected an MC for an explicitly Republican party to switch sides and support an explicitly anti-Republican government (and if you didnt expect that, why ask in the first place?), but can't you see how it would've infuriated PdR voters to see one of their MCs break rank so drastically and suddenly oppose everything they were elected to support? So yes, obviously they're threatened, such a turn of events would've damaged the PdR's and S:reu Frenibuerg's credibility, perhaps irreparably.

Just like dismissing all of this context and its possible consequences as mere "bullying".
Editing posts is my thing. My bad.
Feel free to PM me if you have a Glheþ translation request!

Béneditsch Ardpresteir

What about open solicitation/ advertisement in the voting thread by an otherwise responsible person whilst conducting the election?
Béneditsch Ardpresteir, Esq., O.SPM, PMPA
Squirrel King of Arms, Royal Talossan College of Arms; The Noir Eagle Herald
Member, Royal Talossan Bar; Vice Admiral, Royal Talossan Navy; Owner-Schneiderian Steels

Formerly:
Justice of the Uppermost Cort; Attorney General; Deputy Immigration Minister; Senator; Member of the Cosa; Undersecretary of State; Premier & Provincial Secretary, Maricopa; Chancellor of the O.SPM; Dean, RTCoA; Jolly Good Fellow

Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

After an election during which the Free Democrats repeatedly and vigorously announced that their candidate for Seneschal would be Dama Miestra, only to suddenly decide on a different candidate a few days after the results were in, it doesn't seem like you guys can really claim umbrage here. Caleb is an adult and a Member of Cosa, not a child who must be protected from the reality of his situation.

I mean, honestly... You're pretending to be shocked that a candidate for Seneschal is campaigning for the office by reaching out to people who might be open to changing their mind? The only way that could really be shocking is if you were worried that it might work! And that speaks more to your own house than ours.
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan


Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Ián S.G. Txaglh

i am really shocked by such a lack of democratic standards by senator tzaracomprada. i would go further, what happened is not borderline unethical behaviour, it is far beyond that border.

professionally, i deal with ethical behaviour in scientific conduct, and i am a bit sensitive to such issues. i have already noticed the aggressive political behaviour of TNC representatives in other disco threads and this one seems to fit the same pattern.

yes, oh, man, it is a threatening behaviour. it threatens the democracy of talossa, republican or monarchist. it threatens the political atmosphere and environment, turning it toxic. and it clearly smells of spilt bile, the bile of those who want the power, but were not delegated by the people to hold it.

raton non amusado  :-\

Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

This is really interesting, and I want to be absolutely clear: are we suggesting that it is an ethical rule that it is out of bounds to reach out to MCs of an opposing party to try to convince them to support a different candidate or coalition? I would really really like to hear an answer from this from the leader of the Free Democrats specifically.
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan


Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 22, 2022, 11:58:42 AM
I mean, honestly... You're pretending to be shocked that a candidate for Seneschal is campaigning for the office by reaching out to people who might be open to changing their mind?

Well, maybe this is commonplace in America, but in Germany at least, and I'm sure other parliamentary democracies around the world, such a behaviour would indeed be shocking. The Kemmerich government in Thuringia 2019 fell due to way less than this.
Editing posts is my thing. My bad.
Feel free to PM me if you have a Glheþ translation request!

Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 22, 2022, 12:07:45 PM
This is really interesting, and I want to be absolutely clear: are we suggesting that it is an ethical rule that it is out of bounds to reach out to MCs of an opposing party to try to convince them to support a different candidate or coalition? I would really really like to hear an answer from this from the leader of the Free Democrats specifically.

What would you like to hear from me? Our public statement lays out our position.
Sir Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, UrB, GST, O.SPM, SMM
El Sovind Pudatïu / The Heir Presumptive
Secretár d'Estat
Guaír del Sabor Talossan
The Squirrel Viceroy of Arms, The Rouge Elephant Herald, RTCoA
Cunstaval da Vuode

Viteu

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 22, 2022, 12:07:45 PM
This is really interesting, and I want to be absolutely clear: are we suggesting that it is an ethical rule that it is out of bounds to reach out to MCs of an opposing party to try to convince them to support a different candidate or coalition? I would really really like to hear an answer from this from the leader of the Free Democrats specifically.

whataboutism
Viteu Marcianüs
Puisne Judge of the Uppermost Cort

Former FreeDem (Vote PRESENT)

esbornatfiglheu

#10
This reminds me a bit of things contributing to the collapse of the first Peculiarist govt. in the Republic of Talossa.  After losing the election, the PSD (I think it was still called that at the time) lured away several members of the seated MRP and then dumped the Seneschal in a VoC.

The thing is, party discipline is, essentially, what makes the Westminster (and other similarly structured) parliamentary systems work.  So solicitation of seated MP's in Germany or the UK would be a huge scandal.  Compare that with the individualistic, "big tent" first past the post systems of the Americans, and it would be far less scandalous.  For those who watch the US Senate, it's no secret that the GOP has suggested the Joe Manchin (D-WV) switch allegiance and hand the chamber back to them.

So to come to the ethical question of such solicitation, I'm not sure it is a major ethical breech.  Or, at the very least, your views toward that are going to be informed at least somewhat by your macronational political/national affiliations.

Miestră Schivă, UrN

#11
partly deleted due to cluelessness on my part

Utterly inappropriate to attempt to enmesh a new citizen in such screwery and hi-jinks.

It's also good that I can revive this political cartoon from way back in the day. Third-biggest party asks the biggest party to pretty plz not solicit its members to turn its back on what they were elected for? BULLYING!!!


Vote THE FREE DEMOCRATS OF TALOSSA
¡LADINTSCHIÇETZ-VOI - rogetz-mhe cacsa!
"They proved me right, they proved me wrong, but they could never last this long"

Ian Plätschisch

Voters vote for a party, not for individuals. It is thus clear that the TNC was encouraging an MC to betray their own voters, which seems pretty bad.

Açafat del Val

I speak for myself, and no one else:

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 22, 2022, 10:51:50 AM
This joint statement only indicates you are threatened by my actions. I will reach out to anyone (at any time after their immigrating to the Kingdom) that I want to solicit their support for the TNC and its policies. It will be for that person to consider and respond. Your attempt at bullying will be treated as such and ignored.

Bullying requires some manner of coercion, right? At a minimum, duress. I wonder what causes more duress or coercion?: trying secretly in the shadows to get a new citizen to secure your election as Seneschal, or issuing a public statement laying out priorities and upholding longstanding norms.

For what it's worth, I don't think I've ever heard a leader winge about being bullied. Did Nixon complain about bullying when he got caught in Watergate? I can't remember. Wait, I take that back. Trump complained about being treated unfairly. You're more a Trump guy, huh? Big bad dumb guy trying to roleplay as a leader, who really just wants to circlejerk with his buddies about feeling powerful? Man, even Nixon had more gumption!

You wanted to lead Talossa, right? Put on your big-boy pants, be more creative, and find a better comeback than "bullying", please.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 22, 2022, 12:07:45 PM
This is really interesting, and I want to be absolutely clear: are we suggesting that it is an ethical rule that it is out of bounds to reach out to MCs of an opposing party to try to convince them to support a different candidate or coalition? I would really really like to hear an answer from this from the leader of the Free Democrats specifically.

Sometimes, in brief moments of self-hatred, I wonder what it'd be like if I were your therapist. Like, purely from a psychological and sociological perspective, I am really honestly truly fascinated by you.

Somehow you are smart enough to write words, put together sentences, and manage Wiki articles (when you're not deleting other people's work, that is), but somehow not smart enough to fathom how it could be a taboo (or unethical, in any case) to conspire against a brand-new citizen in order undermine an election.

To be more clear, I think that you know the difference, but you like to play dumb. I have observed this weird pattern where, once confronted with a question, the answer to which may lose you rhetorical victory, you just... don't answer. As if the question was never asked! Or, you like to answer a question which wasn't asked, but which would give you more room to claim victory.

I was not the person whom you solicited for an answer, but I want to answer anyways – ironically, by asking you a question! (My money is that you're too chickenshit to respond, but I'll be humored if you find the gumption.)

If the TNC were not trying to do something unethical, underhanded, or otherwise unbecoming, then why was the communication sent privately? Surely a party and its leadership who want to be transparent, ethical, and forthcoming would make an announcement at large and trying to persuade MCs on the merits alone, without resorting to private secret communiques?

Cheers,

AdV
ex-Senator for Florencia
Jolly Good Fellow of the Royal Talossan College of Arms

Açafat del Val

I think what saddens me the most about the TNC is that they think everyone else is as stupid as they are, as if no one else had the intelligence to see what they were doing and why it could be problematic for Talossa, her norms, her traditions, etc.

Hey, Davinescu, have you ever heard of game theory? It's this idea that says, wherever a person's dominant strategies require defection from the preferred outcome, they are going to defect every single time.

So, either the TNC leadership are donkey butts who don't think that transparency and respect are a preferred outcome, which would be really dangerous for Talossa!, or they are fraudulent tricksters who don't care and are just sad that they got caught.

I'm betting on the latter, because it was the TNC itself who argued for a Grand Coalition and made calls for a reconciliation of differences across the parties... which makes them hypocrites on top of being fraudulent tricksters.

Nixon had better charm than this. Talossa deserves so much better than the TNC.
Cheers,

AdV
ex-Senator for Florencia
Jolly Good Fellow of the Royal Talossan College of Arms