Merging Mayhem

[Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP]

Could this perhaps be resolved by "grandfathering" Senators? Think of it this way: Neither Benito's nor Florencia's Senator is removed from office until their original term was up. Yes, this would mean that -- assuming the merger happens during the 57th Cosa -- for a partial Cosa term, Garibaldi would have two Senators. The "balance of power" in the Senate is not (immediately) changed. However, when elections for the 58th Cosa come up, Garibaldi would simply not elect a Senator. The Benitian senator term would end, and then the Florencian senator would be the sole senator from the new province, and Garibaldi would take the place of Florencia in the Senate election cycle.

This would have the unfortunate consequence of leaving formerly Benitian voters represented by a Senator they didn't elect. Maybe the short time period makes that concern not very important though.

I'd have to check, but I also think that would involve a change to the OrgLaw also. If that's the case, a referendum would be required.

Might be easy to solve the issue by inserting a Section 12 to Org.III

"Any provinces formed by merger shall be represented by all Senators of the pre-merger provinces in question until the expiration of a term of any of the same. At that time, the citizens of the new province shall select a Senator to represent them, and any remaining pre-merger Senators shall finish the term to which they were elected without being replaced upon the expiration of their respective terms."

[Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN]

Could this perhaps be resolved by "grandfathering" Senators? Think of it this way: Neither Benito's nor Florencia's Senator is removed from office until their original term was up. Yes, this would mean that -- assuming the merger happens during the 57th Cosa -- for a partial Cosa term, Garibaldi would have two Senators. The "balance of power" in the Senate is not (immediately) changed. However, when elections for the 58th Cosa come up, Garibaldi would simply not elect a Senator. The Benitian senator term would end, and then the Florencian senator would be the sole senator from the new province, and Garibaldi would take the place of Florencia in the Senate election cycle.

This would have the unfortunate consequence of leaving formerly Benitian voters represented by a Senator they didn't elect. Maybe the short time period makes that concern not very important though.

I'd have to check, but I also think that would involve a change to the OrgLaw also. If that's the case, a referendum would be required.

Might be easy to solve the issue by inserting a Section 12 to Org.III

"Any provinces formed by merger shall be represented by all Senators of the pre-merger provinces in question until the expiration of a term of any of the same. At that time, the citizens of the new province shall select a Senator to represent them, and any remaining pre-merger Senators shall finish the term to which they were elected without being replaced upon the expiration of their respective terms."

This would cause issues with 2017 Org III Sec 1 and the principle of all provinces being equal and having one Senator/one vote each. In effect, the "balance of power" in the Upper House will change. Along with the principle of all provinces having one voice/one vote each and being equally represented going out the window, if we find that one province would be "more equal" (albeit for a limited time) than the others.

Simply put, if a province ceases to exist, so too does its Senate representation. Senators represent and vote on behalf of provinces - not citizens (this is what the lower house represents). It risks fundamentally undermining the Organic construction of the Senate and the balance of power between provinces if organically "non-existent" provinces continue to have a vote in the Senate.

The safest route would be for both Senators to resign and the new province elects a new Senator in line with the 2017 OrgLaw. If this upsets a percentage of the population of the province whose Senator of choice didn't get elected - tough, that's democracy.

[Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP]

Could this perhaps be resolved by "grandfathering" Senators? Think of it this way: Neither Benito's nor Florencia's Senator is removed from office until their original term was up. Yes, this would mean that -- assuming the merger happens during the 57th Cosa -- for a partial Cosa term, Garibaldi would have two Senators. The "balance of power" in the Senate is not (immediately) changed. However, when elections for the 58th Cosa come up, Garibaldi would simply not elect a Senator. The Benitian senator term would end, and then the Florencian senator would be the sole senator from the new province, and Garibaldi would take the place of Florencia in the Senate election cycle.

This would have the unfortunate consequence of leaving formerly Benitian voters represented by a Senator they didn't elect. Maybe the short time period makes that concern not very important though.

I'd have to check, but I also think that would involve a change to the OrgLaw also. If that's the case, a referendum would be required.

Might be easy to solve the issue by inserting a Section 12 to Org.III

"Any provinces formed by merger shall be represented by all Senators of the pre-merger provinces in question until the expiration of a term of any of the same. At that time, the citizens of the new province shall select a Senator to represent them, and any remaining pre-merger Senators shall finish the term to which they were elected without being replaced upon the expiration of their respective terms."

This would cause issues with 2017 Org III Sec 1 and the principle of all provinces being equal and having one Senator/one vote each. In effect, the "balance of power" in the Upper House will change. Along with the principle of all provinces having one voice/one vote each and being equally represented going out the window, if we find that one province would be "more equal" (albeit for a limited time) than the others.

Simply put, if a province ceases to exist, so too does its Senate representation. Senators represent and vote on behalf of provinces - not citizens (this is what the lower house represents). It risks fundamentally undermining the Organic construction of the Senate and the balance of power between provinces if organically "non-existent" provinces continue to have a vote in the Senate.

The safest route would be for both Senators to resign and the new province elects a new Senator in line with the 2017 OrgLaw. If this upsets a percentage of the population of the province whose Senator of choice didn't get elected - tough, that's democracy.

I'm not opposed to just starting from scratch, I was trying to suggest ways to get around the apparent political concerns of doing such a thing in the Senate. Electing a new Senator from scratch appears to be one of he things that has caused mergers to get hung up before, from what I'm seeing.

[Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP]

Had a little fun with things and decided to use hybrids of their respective predecessor province pairs to do mockup flags for Litoral (MM+VD), Manáweg (FI+MA), and Sentriun (CZ+KA), respectively:

   

Manáweg's vertical cross element is obviously too thin, but these are just me goofing around and making rough drafts, because...I like flags, and I can. shrug

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

Really love the one for Manáweg

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

That wobbly miéida on the Manaweg flag hurts my eyes, but nice design otherwise

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

Electing a new Senator from scratch appears to be one of he things that has caused mergers to get hung up before, from what I'm seeing.

Honestly, the main problem with "Manaweg" seems to be the problem that derailed "Iarnéria" (Fiova + Florencia), and that's just monarchists absolutely refusing to let themselves be "taken over by Republicans". I mean, I will assume that's why staunch monarchist Danihel Txecescu said "absolutely not" on the subject.

[Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP]

That wobbly miéida on the Manaweg flag hurts my eyes, but nice design otherwise

You might like the non-wobbly version better :P

[Açafat del Val]

Florencia has the most profound provincial constitution of any of them, one of the more active legislatures/parliaments among them, and (call me biased) one of the more beautiful sets of heraldry. Before someone accuses me of arrogance, I didn't design the flag or coat of arms of Florencia; I merely updated them with 2020 graphics.

Although I admit to thinking that provinces should be abolished altogether, if they should remain at all, Florencia does NOT EVER[/i] deserve to be subsumed, annexed, merged, or otherwise. I would dare to say that recent Florencians have done more for Talossa than most Benitians!

[Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC EiP]

Moving this here since it's a slightly more appropriate venue than the Senator's office thread.

Actually, I have drafted a constitution that merges the two extant provincial constitutions (as well as a second extra draft, on the feedback from S:reu Tzaracomprada, that takes the initial draft and makes it into a directorate). These drafts lift parts of both the Benitian and Florencian constitutions, sometimes word-for-word, sometimes not. If you would like, I can send you links for either or both.

Yes, please.

Gladly!

The "original" draft

The "directorate" draft

As both of these drafts note, they have appended to them the remnants of both provincial constitutions from which they were taken. These bits are included because I didn't want to just throw them out without determining (as a group) whether or not they have constitutional value. I didn't know if some of them were perhaps necessary to include in a constitution, keeping them perhaps for a regular law. Something for a group discussion, I think.

In a similar vein, the flag canton is specifically not the flag of Benito. I will admit it developed from a redesign I had in mind for Benito, but made some pretty obvious alterations when I started to develop the provincial merger idea further. The flag of the province on the whole is in the canton of all three prospective cantonal flags. It has nothing to with "Benito over Florencia".

I'll take that on the chin, too. If the canton doesn't represent dominion over Florencia, then fair's fair. I'll reiterate that it's still a beautiful design, though.

Again, I thank you. I know your opposition to the design isn't on aesthetic grounds.

A massive -snip-

I will agree this is probably more of an issue to bring before the Cort, but I will say I'm sorry it's been frustrating you.

If he's one of maybe two or three citizens of the province I can see regularly active, then no wonder he can basically do what he wants! There aren't enough people here with whom he can share the load, nor are there really enough to force him to do so. Fewer provinces, each with more citizens, leads to improved governance for each, instead of little one-man fiefs spread throughout the nation like what we currently have.

It's hard for me to give a shit remain active when every instance of my passions and interests were unequivocally, unashamedly, and viscously overturned by the end of 2020. I made contributions to Florencia specifically and Talossa generally, and I think that to date most or all of them have been undone, not because they were substantively bad or even improper, but because many Talossans don't want to run a nation – they want to run their own one-man fiefs ;)

It's funny, by the way, that those folks who cry about the FreeDems' failure to govern are the same folks who squash literally any ideas that weren't theirs. (I'm talking about the TNC.)

Similarly, I can understand why making a bunch of changes would be detrimental to your enthusiasm. I want to clarify that my point there wasn't about inactivity specifically on your part, just in general.

In the case of our provinces specifically: a shared history, and to a lesser extent proximity, are what make the pairing an obvious place to start, but the why is really more of a nationwide issue at this point.

And since you have argued in another thread for enlarging Florencia instead -- ok then, it's your turn to make a convincing argument.

Here's my argument: Get rid of all provinces, including Florencia. Until then, no mergers.

That would solve the issue of threadbare provincial activity, even if not in the manner I was proposing (or, I suppose, in an extreme version of the manner I was proposing ;D). The main issue there is needing to change how we do the Senäts, or perhaps abolishing it altogether. (Not that I'm opposed, I prefer a unicameral Ziu anyway.)