Budget and Financial Planning Bill for the 58th Cosa

[xpb]

Word Mark   TALOSSA
Goods and Services   (CANCELLED) IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: Entertainment services, namely, providing historical, cultural and political information about an organization in the nature of a fictional nation. FIRST USE: 19791226. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19850701
Standard Characters Claimed   
Mark Drawing Code   (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number   78401395
Filing Date   April 14, 2004
Current Basis   1A
Original Filing Basis   1B
Published for Opposition   March 1, 2005
Registration Number   2955054
Registration Date   May 24, 2005
Owner   (REGISTRANT) Madison, Robert B. INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 8631 North Servite Drive Unit 118 Milwaukee WISCONSIN 53223
Type of Mark   SERVICE MARK
Register   PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator   DEAD
Cancellation Date   January 24, 2013

[Ian Plätschisch]

You can get an EIN for free, that's what you need to open a bank account in the organization's name.

I really don't think spending $2,000 on establishing a 401cX is worth it

[xpb]

You can get an EIN for free, that's what you need to open a bank account in the organization's name.

I really don't think spending $2,000 on establishing a 401cX is worth it

However then it needs to incorporate unless it is a LLC or Subchapter S which leads back to some individual being responsible.  If incorporated, it makes sends to be a 501c8 (not 3 that has higher thresholds to cross).  The cost I am referencing is for the Trademark (TM) work, the corporation would be less expensive.  If not pursuing TM then it also could just be a fund within an existing 501cX structure.

[Üc R. Tärfă]

Well that escalated pretty quickly... A $600 USD budget was under scrutiny and now I read figures even higher than the Treasury total!

Although this debate took place in the Budget thread, may I ask the Minister to confirm that this Bill will not be amended in any way to reflect this?

I do not understand much of what has been said insofar as reference is made to US legislation on the subject of which I know nothing. I would suggest moving this discussion to another thread.

That makes sense. We're actually exploring the idea of getting an EIN or registering a 501c3, though. The new burgermeister volunteered and the Seneschal directed us to explore the idea.

@xpb , do you want to tell them what you told me about those possibilities?

Wasn't this already explored in the past?

and the Seneschal directed us to explore the idea.

When?

A few days ago.

I'm a little concerned about this.

I hope that the government will, should this study have any follow up, which I think should be in the form of a 'White Paper', engage in a broad debate with citizens on this issue before even contemplating its transformation into a government proposal.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Well that escalated pretty quickly... A $600 USD budget was under scrutiny and now I read figures even higher than the Treasury total!

Although this debate took place in the Budget thread, may I ask the Minister to confirm that this Bill will not be amended in any way to reflect this?

I certainly do not intend to make any unannounced edits to the bill. As I have been doing, I will continue to make it known if there are any significant changes.

I hope that the government will, should this study have any follow up, which I think should be in the form of a 'White Paper', engage in a broad debate with citizens on this issue before even contemplating its transformation into a government proposal.

I'm not sure we can commit to any specific form. This goal is a bipartisan one, pursued by previous administrations in the past and only undone, I believe, because it was logistically difficult and perhaps not practical.

That said, I can't imagine we would do anything but continue to be transparent and seek feedback, just as we have been doing.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

Previous governments only suggested declaring a Registered Agent under Wisconsin law, which would have cost less than $US100.

[xpb]

Previous governments only suggested declaring a Registered Agent under Wisconsin law, which would have cost less than $US100.

A registered agent is an appropriate idea.  That typically requires a corporate structure to be a registered agent for.  An EIN is indeed free, but requires a corporate structure to be assigned to.

The larger amounts being proposed were to claw back the previous registered trademark of Talossa, which has lain dormant since 2013.  Smaller amounts would be needed to incorporate (perhaps a couple hundred) but would need agreement as to structure.  The renewal would be $20 per year to file an annual report.

The entire purpose would be to remove individuals from banking or other accounts, and have officers of a corporation elected from time to time to oversee those accounts as part of operations.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Added to the bill:
"There was no financial report filed during the 57th Cosa, as confirmed with the Seneschal and Ministreu dal Finançù, of that term, and accordingly it will not be possible to provide a list of transactions.

The amount of current coinage and stamps in circulation and in reserve is currently unknown.  This information will be provided in a supplemental report to the Ziu."

I feel confident at this point that there is no existing previous financial report filed by the Government, and it's not any sort of oversight or just misplaced, having gotten word to that effect from the preceding administration.  For reasons out of our control, we have also not been able to obtain coin & stamps info.  In the interests of not embarrassing anyone, let me simply assure the Ziu that this information will be provided in a supplemental report at a later date.

[Üc R. Tärfă]

The Financial Report of the previous budget (which would have been on the 56th cosa). is nor a requisite for this Report: the Burgemeister doesn't need that to provide a list of transactions from the Kingdom account balances, and to link them to the appropriation part in the budget.

1.5.6.2. a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the last Report,

We can easily read that part as:

a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the 57th Budget.

1.5.6.3. a balance sheet which clearly lists all expenses linking them to the relative sheet items in the budget bills approved in the Cosa,

Again no need here for the financial report, just the previous budget and the account balances.

The 53rd and 54th Budgets had a different wording of the law, but the essential part is the same.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

The Financial Report of the previous budget (which would have been on the 56th cosa). is nor a requisite for this Report: the Burgemeister doesn't need that to provide a list of transactions from the Kingdom account balances, and to link them to the appropriation part in the budget.

1.5.6.2. a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the last Report,

We can easily read that part as:

a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the 57th Budget.

Well, I'm not sure it's valid to change the words to different ones, and then note that they would then mean something different. The law explicitly asks for changes since the last financial report, not the last budget.  But even if we did, no account balances were provided in the 57th budget.  And transactions have yet been confirmed, since no disbursement notices were filed.  I agree that this is a problem, and that the financial report and disbursement notices were legally required, but it's already been publicly discussed and I think it would be kinder not to drag this out.  Everyone makes mistakes, and there were extenuating circumstances.

[Üc R. Tärfă]

þon. Ministreu,
don't try to deflect the argument: we're talking about producing this Report for this Budget. I wasn't MC during the last Budget, I am MC for this Budget and it is my job as member of HM Loyal Opposition to scrutinise your work, while ensuring that the Financial Report is duly attached to this Budget is your job as Ministreu dal Finançù.

The spirit of the law is clear: the purpose of the Report is to be the final balance of the previous term, and to present the list of operations that were carried out during the previous Cosa, with in addition an indication, in the case of expenditures, of the Budget item that appropriated the money (in order to clarify how much money authorized was actually spent). When I said to read "since the last Report" as "since the last Budget" I didn't say to change the law but to consider that statement correctly as the terminus a quo the law is referring to here, since the Report must be submitted together with the Budget, to include information on the Financial Report.

The law gives an obvious temporal indication rather than being prescriptive. To cling to a literal "since the last report" instead of a temporal indication as an impossibility to make the Report "you need this to do that", is to play with the law. The law doesn't say that you can't have a Report if none was delivered in the last term.

But even if it were as you claim, certainly for Lexh.C.1.5.6.3. there is not even that indication "since the last Report": therefore it cannot be an excuse.

Producing the Financial Report (excluding the part on stamps and coins for the reasons we all know and we all hope to resolve soon) is very simple: it only needs access to the banking and PayPal account statements, create a table with the data for the last term and simply add for the expenses the reference to the funds appopriated in the budget approved in the last Cosa.

There is no need to bring up the previous Government because it has nothing to do with this.

The question is: Does the Burgermeister have access to the accounts? If the answer is "yes", than that alone is enough to produce the Report.

If you need the budget for last Cosa (for Lexh.C.1.5.6.3) I can provide to you the link. I can also provide to you the receipt for one of the disbursement duly authorised by the Cosa: just follow the link to Witt on that page. That expense is the one appropriated on Part A section FINANCE of the Budget.

(I'd also argue that the PD in question can be interpeted as a "Notice of disbursment" in compliance with the 14-days required by 57RZ5 as it was issued by the Seneschal on the 23rd of July and the disbursment - the donation - was made 68 days later on the 29th of September. BTW: nowithstanding the lack of countersignature by the King, the disbursement was already authorised by 57RZ5 in compliance with Lexh.D.2.8.5, so the King assent wasn't needed per Lexh.D.2.8.6. The King as far as I can tell failed to countersign not 1 but 7 PDs in the last term, all the "observance days" PDs: 57PD3 57PD4 57PD5 57PD6 57PD7 57PD8 57PD9.)

:)

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I'm sorry, but I think we disagree on this.  There was no financial report, and the law states that I should list changes in account balance since the last report.  The financial report and the budget are not the same thing, even though they're delivered at the same time, and the former wasn't done.  And I cannot yet discern which expenditures were linked to which budget lines from the last budget, since no disbursement notices were filed.  It is true that money was authorized to be spent, but notice was never given when it was actually disbursed.

I intend to provide all of this information once I can be quite sure that I can verify that information and those links to the best of my ability, but that is not yet possible.  I'm not prepared to formally certify to the Ziu that everything was appropriated and disbursed as it should be, and I'm not going to make a false representation to that effect.

To make things more clear, I am going to separate the financial bill and the budget.  So this bill will just be the budget bill, and the financial report will be put in a separate report to the Ziu.

[Üc R. Tärfă]

And I cannot yet discern which expenditures were linked to which budget lines from the last budget, since no disbursement notices were filed.  It is true that money was authorized to be spent, but notice was never given when it was actually disbursed.

It is not your job. It's the Burgermeister's.

Lexh.C.1.5:

1.5. The Royal Treasury, headed by the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue. The function of the treasury is to:
1.5.1. collect all revenues due to the King,
1.5.2. maintain and report to the Finance Minister and the Government on the fiduciary health of the Kingdom, at least once in every two calendar months and whenever else requested
1.5.3. disburse from the treasury all funds legitimately appropriated by the Ziu,
1.5.4. keep a record of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury.
1.5.5. audit the reported financial condition of His Majesty's investments at any time.
1.5.6. provide, upon request of the Minister of Finance and any other time stated in law, a Financial Report containing the following information:
1.5.6.1. the amount, location, liquidity, and availability of all funds held by or for the Royal Treasury,
1.5.6.2. a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the last Report,
1.5.6.3. a balance sheet which clearly lists all expenses linking them to the relative sheet items in the budget bills approved in the Cosa,
1.5.6.4. the total amount of louise and postal items in circulation;[104]

Again

I'm not prepared to formally certify to the Ziu that everything was appropriated and disbursed as it should be, and I'm not going to make a false representation to that effect.

That is not your job, but the Burgermeister's.

The question is simple as that. It is sufficient for the Burgermeister to have bank and paypal statements from, say, 1 July 2022 to 1 March 2023. And preparing the Financial Report is quite simple.

I do some balance statements every year even with totals of 5 zeros, I volunteer to prepare the Financial Report myself, I only need the balance statements.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I am the Ministreu dal Finançù, and the Burgermeister is my direct report.  If I am directed by the law to provide information to the Ziu, incorporating a report from a civil servant under my legal direction, then I am not going to provide that information until we can be sure it is accurate and can be verifiably linked to past expenditures as required by the law.  I am sure your enthusiasm would extend to holding me accountable for what I present to the Ziu, after all.

I asked the preceding Burgermeister for past information to fill in some of these holes, and he indicated to me he would prefer I ask his successor.  I think that is eminently reasonable since he was already doing quite the hardest job in the country.

[Üc R. Tärfă]

I am the Ministreu dal Finançù, and the Burgermeister is my direct report.  If I am directed by the law to provide information to the Ziu, incorporating a report from a civil servant under my legal direction,

The Burgermeister is not under your legal direction. He is responsible to you, but it is not under your legal direction except as required by law.

Lexh.C.2

With the exception of the Secretary of State and the Permanent Secretaries, every Office of the Royal Civil Service shall be assigned to a responsible Minister of the Government as named below, to report and consult concerning the conduct of their office as and when requested, necessary or useful. Officers are not subject to the direction of their responsible Minister except as required by Organic and statutory law. The Scribe of Abbavilla shall be responsible to the Attorney-General, the Royal Archivist to the Minister of Immigration, the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue to the Minister of Finance, and the President of the Royal Society and the Poet Laureate to the Minister of Culture.

And, as I quoted above, his duties are:

Lexh.C.1.5

1.5. The Royal Treasury, headed by the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue. The function of the treasury is to:
1.5.1. collect all revenues due to the King,
1.5.2. maintain and report to the Finance Minister and the Government on the fiduciary health of the Kingdom, at least once in every two calendar months and whenever else requested
1.5.3. disburse from the treasury all funds legitimately appropriated by the Ziu,
1.5.4. keep a record of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury.
1.5.5. audit the reported financial condition of His Majesty's investments at any time.
1.5.6. provide, upon request of the Minister of Finance and any other time stated in law, a Financial Report containing the following information:
1.5.6.1. the amount, location, liquidity, and availability of all funds held by or for the Royal Treasury,
1.5.6.2. a detailed list of all changes in the account balances of the Royal Treasury since the last Report,
1.5.6.3. a balance sheet which clearly lists all expenses linking them to the relative sheet items in the budget bills approved in the Cosa,
1.5.6.4. the total amount of louise and postal items in circulation;
1.5.7. All accounts and other monies held by the Royal Treasury shall be held in the name of both the King and the Burgermeister, in such a way that the King shall be able to perform the functions of the Burgermeister in case of the Burgermeister's absence, on his own initiative or upon request of the Minister of Finance.

Morevoer,

I am sure your enthusiasm would extend to holding me accountable for what I present to the Ziu, after all.

For what is your responsability, yes.

I asked the preceding Burgermeister for past information to fill in some of these holes, and he indicated to me he would prefer I ask his successor.  I think that is eminently reasonable since he was already doing quite the hardest job in the country.

Probably because you dismissed him without asking him before?

By the way:

Lexh.C.3

3. The Officers of the Royal Civil Service shall have no fixed terms of office and shall not be removed from office by the dissolution of the Cosa.
3.1 The Secretary of State is appointed by the King on the recommendation of the Seneschál, and removed by the King on the recommendation of any two of the Seneschál, the Túischac'h or the Mençei for professional misconduct, inability to perform their duties due to incapacitation or failure to perform their required duties.[106]
3.2 The other Officers of the Royal Civil Service are appointed by the King on the recommendation of the responsible Minister, and removed by the King on the recommendation of the responsible minister for professional misconduct, inability to perform their duties due to incapacitation or failure to perform their required duties.

I wonder if the previous Burgermeister was dissmed for

• professional misconduct,
• inability to perform his duties due to incapacitation or
• failure to perform his required duty?