Budget and Financial Planning Bill for the 58th Cosa

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I am the Ministreu dal Finançù, and the Burgermeister is my direct report.  If I am directed by the law to provide information to the Ziu, incorporating a report from a civil servant under my legal direction,

The Burgermeister is not under your legal direction. He is responsible to you, but it is not under your legal direction except as required by law.

The report is provided according to my legal direction! If you're going to split hairs with the zeal of a microscopic barber, please do so correctly.

I am sure your enthusiasm would extend to holding me accountable for what I present to the Ziu, after all.

For what is your responsability, yes.

Great.  Agreed.

I wonder if the previous Burgermeister was dissmed for

• professional misconduct,
• inability to perform his duties due to incapacitation or
• failure to perform his required duty?

A new Burgermeister was appointed to take effect only upon his resignation.

[Üc R. Tärfă]

I wonder if the previous Burgermeister was dissmed for

• professional misconduct,
• inability to perform his duties due to incapacitation or
• failure to perform his required duty?

A new Burgermeister was appointed to take effect only upon his resignation.

[/quote]

to be honest I was deleting that part, because I wasn't sure as that went down in the data loss. My bad.

I am the Ministreu dal Finançù, and the Burgermeister is my direct report.  If I am directed by the law to provide information to the Ziu, incorporating a report from a civil servant under my legal direction,

The Burgermeister is not under your legal direction. He is responsible to you, but it is not under your legal direction except as required by law.

The report is provided according to my legal direction! If you're going to split hairs with the zeal of a microscopic barber, please do so correctly.

I am doing that correctly.

Please tell me where in the Lexh is said that the report is provided according to your legal direction.

2.8.3.1. a Financial Report as provided in El Lexhatx C.1.5.6;

1.5.6. provide, upon request of the Minister of Finance and any other time stated in law, a Financial Report containing the following information:

The law says only that he has to provide that to you as directed and according with the law.

Can you please point to me where the law says that is provided according to your legal direction?

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

The Burgermeister is assigned to me "to report and consult concerning the conduct of their office as and when requested, necessary or useful," and in this case provides the report "upon request of the Minister of Finance."  In other words, by law I direct him to prepare the information and he reports to me on this and other matters concerning how he does his job.

The Burgermeister is a civil servant because their position persists until resignation or termination, and it's not a political position concerned with making policy, but rather a position implementing clearly-defined duties, reporting to someone elected by the people.

This esoteric point has quite passed out of usefulness to anyone, though.

The overall lay of the land is that I'm giving the information we have right now and can verify, and will provide the rest as soon as possible.  There is some delay caused by the fact that there haven't been any financial reports in the recent past or any disbursement reports, and we appointed a new Burgermeister upon the resignation of the preceding one after discussing with him how administering the election was very understandably quite enough work for any one person.  Possibly it might have also worked to delay, but I'd still probably be sorting through a CSV to try to match things up.

I'm grateful for your rigor, and I hope you keep it up, since I think it's definitely in service to your country.

[Üc R. Tärfă]

Before you said under your legal direction.

The report is provided according to my legal direction! If you're going to split hairs with the zeal of a microscopic barber, please do so correctly.

Now you only quote just a part of the section:

The Burgermeister is assigned to me "to report and consult concerning the conduct of their office as and when requested, necessary or useful,"

Because the full part is:

With the exception of the Secretary of State and the Permanent Secretaries, every Office of the Royal Civil Service shall be assigned to a responsible Minister of the Government as named below, to report and consult concerning the conduct of their office as and when requested, necessary or useful. Officers are not subject to the direction of their responsible Minister except as required by Organic and statutory law.

quite convenient to not quote the other part right?

and in this case provides the report "upon request of the Minister of Finance."  In other words, by law I direct him to prepare the information and he reports to me on this and other matters concerning how he does his job.

Also in this case you only quote a part of the section.There's not even a full stop after Finance.

provide, upon request of the Minister of Finance and any other time stated in law, a Financial Report containing the following information

that means that he provides the Financial Report

upon request of the Minister of Finance and any other time stated in law

which means:

any other time you request a Report AND when the law requires him to do.

the Financial Report attached to budget is in the last part "any other time stated in law" (which is 2.8.3.1. a Financial Report as provided in El Lexhatx C.1.5.6)

Moreover, the "request" - not for the budget because that is a duty he has to do by law - is simple
"Hey Burgermeister, please provides me with a Financial Report".
"Ok, I'll do it".

The point is: the fact that the law doesn't says what you think it should says or you thought the law said, doesn't mean the law is wrong.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Before you said under your legal direction.

The report is provided according to my legal direction! If you're going to split hairs with the zeal of a microscopic barber, please do so correctly.

Now you only quote just a part of the section:

The Burgermeister is assigned to me "to report and consult concerning the conduct of their office as and when requested, necessary or useful,"

Because the full part is:

With the exception of the Secretary of State and the Permanent Secretaries, every Office of the Royal Civil Service shall be assigned to a responsible Minister of the Government as named below, to report and consult concerning the conduct of their office as and when requested, necessary or useful. Officers are not subject to the direction of their responsible Minister except as required by Organic and statutory law.

quite convenient to not quote the other part right?

Statutory law is indeed what directs me to ask for the Financial Report and present it for the second Clark.  We've covered that quite a lot.

and in this case provides the report "upon request of the Minister of Finance."  In other words, by law I direct him to prepare the information and he reports to me on this and other matters concerning how he does his job.

Also in this case you only quote a part of the section.There's not even a full stop after Finance.

provide, upon request of the Minister of Finance and any other time stated in law, a Financial Report containing the following information

that means that he provides the Financial Report

upon request of the Minister of Finance and any other time stated in law

which means:

any other time you request a Report AND when the law requires him to do.

the Financial Report attached to budget is in the last part "any other time stated in law" (which is 2.8.3.1. a Financial Report as provided in El Lexhatx C.1.5.6)

Yes, this is exactly what I was just referencing.

[Üc R. Tärfă]

Yes, this is exactly what I was just referencing.

If this helped you to better understand how it should functions and the difference from civil servant and ministers, I'm glad I was able to help you.

As we started from what you said here:

the law states that I should list changes in account balance since the last report

That was quite a giant leap  ;)

Which brings us back to the first topic.

Previous financial reports and disbursement notices are not required to put together the Financial Report which is quite frankly not a difficult job.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Thank you for your feedback.  I am not sure we will reach an understanding on this point, beyond my assurance that we will provide the absent information as quickly as possible.  Your perspective remains valuable, and your scrutiny is appropriate and just.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

MinFor and the Seneschal have agreed that we should trim the proposed budget to try to accommodate some concerns, so the proposed BHAID budget will be slashed in half.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

@Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB , I was going to have the financial report part be separate at the top before this bill, but I wonder if that's allowed or considered good form.  As Secretary of State, do you have a preference in presentation?  If necessary, I can add it back as the first section of the bill.

[Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB]

@Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB , I was going to have the financial report part be separate at the top before this bill, but I wonder if that's allowed or considered good form.  As Secretary of State, do you have a preference in presentation?  If necessary, I can add it back as the first section of the bill.

I'ma little fuzzy on this bill and haven't been following the debate with any regularity. It would probably be best to keep whatever the existing format of previous budget bills are. Sorry that I'm not able to be more specific. I'm currently experiencing vacation brain :-)

[Üc R. Tärfă]

MinFor and the Seneschal have agreed that we should trim the proposed budget to try to accommodate some concerns, so the proposed BHAID budget will be slashed in half.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

The current funds of the Kingdom consist of a checking account, a savings account, and a Paypal account.  On report from the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue, these accounts stand at the following balances:
Checking: $1,178.50
Savings: $46.60
Paypal: $267.93
Total: $1493.03

There should be the date of that assessment.

There was no financial report filed during the 57th Cosa, as confirmed with the Seneschal and Ministreu dal Finançù, of that term, and accordingly it will not be possible to provide a list of transactions.

There's no correlation between the "it will not be possible to provide a list of transactions" and the lack of a Financial Report attached to the 57th Budget.

[Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB]

If I may, Baron, can you double check these balances:

The current funds of the Kingdom consist of a checking account, a savings account, and a Paypal account.  On report from the Burgermeister of Inland Revenue, these accounts stand at the following balances:
Checking: $1,178.50
Savings: $46.60
Paypal: $267.93
Total: $1493.03

When I was Burgermeister the vast majority of the treasury was in savings, not checking. Has the current Burgermeister moved the funds out of the interest accruing savings account and into checking? If so, for what purpose?

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

lol thank you, no I just transposed those labels when I was copying and pasting from the Burgermeister. I'm going to update this when we get to submission day, so hopefully I would have caught that, but thank you!

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I have updated the draft with expenditures and notes indicating their connection to the preceding budget.  Per the SoS' wishes, I have also put the whole thing back into one familiar-format bill.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Are there any further questions, concerns, or objections before I Clark this?