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[Campaigning] TNC Stolen Valour

Started by Miestră Schivă, UrN, September 26, 2023, 03:12:10 PM

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Miestră Schivă, UrN

When we went into this election, we assumed that the TNC would campaign on their generally competent administration of the Government over the last term; while the Free Democrats would campaign on defending the Organic Law from partisan power grabs.

What we've found strange and disturbing about the latest TNC campaign email is that they apparently don't agree with us that what they've actually done over the last term is creditable enough - that they (or should I say - the person who writes their campaign email) feel the need to make stuff up. Or at least, take credit for others' achievements.

To wit:

Free Democrats did that, dude. Or rather - the FreeDem led government did that, with myself and @Mic'haglh Autófil doing the heavy lifting. But much worse than that is the number of Talossans who haven't even received these ID cards! The previous government also had problems with the mailout, of course. But doing a victory lap when you haven't finished the race yet is unseemly.

As to this one:



I suppose "partial credit". The social media is good. But if by "working website" you mean talossa.com, again, the previous Free Dems government did that. And if you mean talossan.com, the TNC government actively lost that one!

It's like the author of that "pupil-dilating" campaign email just can't stop himself making stuff up, even when he doesn't need to. It's quite obvious that the author wasn't the TNC Seneschal candidate, who is - as far as I can tell - an honourable and honest person who really wants to cut down the partisan nonsense in this country. Sadly, Bråneu still has to answer to what his party colleagues do in his name.

I just wanted to close by noting something:

QuoteHere at the TNC, we stay positive and focus on just doing fun stuff.  So we're not going to be attacking our opponents.  Instead, we're offering more ideas and more energy and more fun.  Don't go back to another five years of Free Democrats in power -- honour us with more time to keep working for you.

First reaction: lol, lmao.
Second reaction:




PROTECT THE ORGLAW FROM POWER GRABS - NO POLITICISED KING! Vote THE FREE DEMOCRATS OF TALOSSA
¡LADINTSCHIÇETZ-VOI - rogetz-mhe cacsa!
"IS INACTIVITY BAD? I THINK NOT!" - Lord Hooligan

Miestră Schivă, UrN

(I should note that I have personally been happy with the general administrative performance of the TNC this time around that, should I be in a position to form the next Government, I would certainly invite at least some of the current Cabinet to stay on. They probably wouldn't due to party loyalty, but you get the point I'm making. The TNC propaganda department shouldn't have to stretch the truth about their party's record.)

PROTECT THE ORGLAW FROM POWER GRABS - NO POLITICISED KING! Vote THE FREE DEMOCRATS OF TALOSSA
¡LADINTSCHIÇETZ-VOI - rogetz-mhe cacsa!
"IS INACTIVITY BAD? I THINK NOT!" - Lord Hooligan

Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

When we took over, several people had applied for ID cards and they were never produced.  All of the information collected by the government was retained by one person -- who I guess still has it? -- and all of the templates and files were lost.  We had to remake the cards and the whole process, find new (better) vendors, and collect the same information again.  Those cards are in the mail, and some folks have already received them.  Everyone else should get theirs in the next few days.

More importantly, all of the template files, the automated script to produce them, and all of the data has been preserved in new government databases.  A permanent secretary has charge of access and will smoothly change over to the next Government when necessary.  No one's personal data -- real names and physical addresses! -- are floating around out there.  No one's going to have to redo this all the work again.

No one said that we were the first to produce ID cards.  Don't be silly.  We just did a better job.  We have kept the personal information of citizens secure, we haven't lost any important government assets, and we sent out cards to every single person who filled out the forms.

I know you guys are running a purely negative campaign, so this is what you've got -- scary smears and silliness.  But I don't think this is the best approach.

Run a campaign about ideas!  Tell the people about what you want to accomplish, rather than what you want to destroy.  What do you want to build or fix?  How will you improve people's experiences here?  How will you grow the country, while still keeping it fun and interesting?  What is the joy you get from being here, and how will you share that joy with others?

This is the 59th Cosa, and the world is changing so fast.  How will we change Talossa to meet and profit from these changes?  What do you want to accomplish -- beyond "winning?"

Let's run a positive campaign about what we've done and what we want to do!
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan


Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Miestră Schivă, UrN

I guess that the reaction shows that my intuition about who wrote the TNC mailout was correct!

But seriously, there were three things the TNC could have done to kill this election dead and give the FreeDems no chance:

  • Announce that the former Regent would not accept any nomination to become Heir to the Throne.
  • Announce that the attempt to put a Government appointee as "Deputy SoS" would stop (to his credit, the TNC candidate for Senator in Maricopa actually dd this!)
  • Just campaign on their record without making stuff up or angry trashing of their predecessors (while somehow simultaneously claiming to run a "positive" campaign)

I would still like to hear from the TNC Seneschal candidate on this issue. The more he gets "talked over", the more questions will be raised over who's the organ grinder and who's the monkey.

PROTECT THE ORGLAW FROM POWER GRABS - NO POLITICISED KING! Vote THE FREE DEMOCRATS OF TALOSSA
¡LADINTSCHIÇETZ-VOI - rogetz-mhe cacsa!
"IS INACTIVITY BAD? I THINK NOT!" - Lord Hooligan

þerxh Sant-Enogat

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on September 26, 2023, 03:57:04 PMI would still like to hear from the TNC Seneschal candidate on this issue. The more he gets "talked over", the more questions will be raised over who's the organ grinder and who's the monkey.
I don't think this is a nice or correct thing to say to someone motivated to dedicate time and enthousiasm for us all.
þerxh Sant-Enogat, SMC, MC
Seneschal, Minister of Immigration, Minister of STUFF,
Sénéchal de Cézembre,
Duceu del TNC / Congreßeu Naziunal da Talossa
Former Prospective Citizen

Miestră Schivă, UrN

Quote from: þerxh Sant-Enogat on September 26, 2023, 04:35:15 PM
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on September 26, 2023, 03:57:04 PMI would still like to hear from the TNC Seneschal candidate on this issue. The more he gets "talked over", the more questions will be raised over who's the organ grinder and who's the monkey.
I don't think this is a nice or correct thing to say to someone motivated to dedicate time and enthousiasm for us all.

Bråneu knows that I genuinely like and respect him. You saw the "Friendly Chat" video, right? This is why I don't blame him for everything a TNC member does that I find silly or unpleasant. Bråneu and I know about the need to dial down partisan bickering - which, in part, means that we can't just leap to the defence of whatever someone in "our party" does, and assume the other party are bad guys.

PROTECT THE ORGLAW FROM POWER GRABS - NO POLITICISED KING! Vote THE FREE DEMOCRATS OF TALOSSA
¡LADINTSCHIÇETZ-VOI - rogetz-mhe cacsa!
"IS INACTIVITY BAD? I THINK NOT!" - Lord Hooligan

Bråneu Excelsio

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on September 26, 2023, 03:12:10 PMTake credit for others' achievements.
It'd be good if you can provide information about how many Talossan ID's got delivered in the 57th Cosa because S:reu Autófil kind of blocked the production once he wasn't in office and we never knew how many were sent/delivered. We had to do the design from scratch and design all of them again. We looked for printers and they weren't top notch so we made them again. Finally, we got them done and they were sent to Talossan citizens.

I'm not saying this is a partisan blockade in the way the FreeDems are known for, but the incumbent TNC cabinet got the ball rolling again. It might have been your idea, and we appreciate your efforts; we can pinpoint how many were printed this Cosa and as we all can see, they're arriving to their respective owners these days. It was never stated that the TNC came up with the idea, come on.

Short answer, you're right, it wasn't our initiative but we didn't drop it because it's good and fun :) We managed to be transparent about the IDs and we intend on doing it again :)


Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on September 26, 2023, 03:12:10 PMI suppose "partial credit". The social media is good. And if you mean talossan.com, the TNC government actively lost that one!
This is a sensitive issue worth discussing, a lot of these problems could have been avoided if the solutions (again) weren't relying in citizens who are actively ignoring our requests to solve the issues. I'm not saying this is a partisan blockade so we would look like we didn't try but we tried and we have solutions to amend that. Also, I think this specific issue about if should Talossan.com still be up or should it be transformed into something else is an ongoing necessity of the Kingdom. I wouldn't weaponise this issue.


Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on September 26, 2023, 03:12:10 PMSadly, Bråneu still has to answer to what his party colleagues do in his name.
I'm doing that. Just had to make a cup of coffee first.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on September 26, 2023, 03:12:10 PM

Of course we're scared.
What would the FreeDems do in power?
You refused to achieve a Compromise because "you didn't need to", so you obviously don't need us.


WHEREAS "Don't go back to another five years of Free Democrats in power" may not fully represent our feelings,
THEREFORE, let it be amended to read
"Let us never go back to another Cosa of empty ministries and Government blockades".


Fiován.

Miestră Schivă, UrN

Quote from: Bråneu Excelsio on September 26, 2023, 06:42:29 PMI'm not saying this is a partisan blockade in the way the FreeDems are known for

You weren't around during the FreeDems boycott of TNC legislation. The fact that you weren't is shown that you use the term "blockade" that AD made up as an attack line against us. What do you actually know about why that happened?

QuoteYou refused to achieve a Compromise because "you didn't need to", so you obviously don't need us

... I'm sorry, my friend, but I have absolutely no idea what this means. Is this something to do with the constitutional "Historic Compromise"? That people who are now your TNC colleagues fought for three Cosas to make sure never got over the line? Is that to what you're referring?

As to the ID cards: I got mine under the Free Democrat government, I don't have total numbers but it was certainly more than one. The bad thing was that, the end of our government, a few ID cards weren't sent out because the minister involved got divorced and had to take time off for his own health. And yes, he didn't hand over the templates after he was out of office, despite prodding from myself, probably because he kept having those health issues. What that indicates to me is that Governments should always have "backup plans" and not trust individuals.

Individual ministers "dropping the ball" happens. The question is how we deal with these mistakes. What we don't do is adopt a partisan stand: "if my party colleague drops the ball, it's an honest mistake and you're mean for persisting with questions about it. If your coalition partner drops the ball, it's a scandal and it proves that none of you can ever be trusted again." For example: the issue that the TNC government lost the domain name talossan.com was a screw-up that could have been avoided. What is a far worse problem was that the outgoing government (since my Terpelaziun) has simply stonewalled on the issue. The Minister concerned has disappeared, while the Seneschal is just rude to anyone who asks questions - while other TNC members cheer him on.

I honestly think someone has just not told you the truth about what actually happened in Talossa before you became a citizen. For example:

Quote"Let us never go back to another Cosa of empty ministries and Government blockades".

What exactly do you mean by "empty ministries"? What ministries were empty during the last FreeDem-led government?

PROTECT THE ORGLAW FROM POWER GRABS - NO POLITICISED KING! Vote THE FREE DEMOCRATS OF TALOSSA
¡LADINTSCHIÇETZ-VOI - rogetz-mhe cacsa!
"IS INACTIVITY BAD? I THINK NOT!" - Lord Hooligan

Ian Plätschisch

#8
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on September 26, 2023, 03:45:03 PMI know you guys are running a purely negative campaign, so this is what you've got -- scary smears and silliness.  But I don't think this is the best approach.

Run a campaign about ideas!  Tell the people about what you want to accomplish, rather than what you want to destroy.  What do you want to build or fix?  How will you improve people's experiences here?  How will you grow the country, while still keeping it fun and interesting?  What is the joy you get from being here, and how will you share that joy with others?

It would be very convenient for the governing party if the Opposition never resorted to the dreaded "negative campaigning", wouldn't it?

I think it's pretty obvious how I and many others have been finding/sharing joy in Talossa over the past year; thankfully, it has had very little to do with politics.

Politics is a quest for the seat of power. Many (dare I say most or even all) things that build people up and spread joy can be accomplished outside of it.

The central FreeDem message is that we should win enough seats to prevent the TNC from fully attaining the seat of power, because we are rightly suspicious of what you would do with it.

Sorry if that's not enough sunshine and roses for you.

Miestră Schivă, UrN

If the TNC were not liable to get into a position to make their most unpopular member the Heir to the Throne (among other things), then sure, as decent administrators I'd be happy with them getting another term. But "negative campaigning" is one of those irregular verbs:

- I hold the Government to account.
- You engage in negative campaigning.
- She is grandstanding with vitriol.

PROTECT THE ORGLAW FROM POWER GRABS - NO POLITICISED KING! Vote THE FREE DEMOCRATS OF TALOSSA
¡LADINTSCHIÇETZ-VOI - rogetz-mhe cacsa!
"IS INACTIVITY BAD? I THINK NOT!" - Lord Hooligan

Bråneu Excelsio

About the Blockade by the FreeDem led government:
In spanish, blockade and boycott have, simply put, the same connotation when the one in charge is the one doing it.

An idea
The TNC you will find is a diverse group. Your political motif and manifesto lie in the fact that you individually stopped the dialogue in a easy going, civilized nice little thread in which both parties were invested?. A thread which I dissected for the general public to see and that I wish to continue.

Putting ideas in people's heads
I'm not a monkey dancing to the organ grinder. You started this thread saying that we took credit for something that we didn't took credit for and then suggested that I was a monkey dancing to the organ grinder because I didn't engage in the next 30 minutes? Nice political maneuver. Very bad choice at cooling down partisan temperature, tho.

The Empty Ministries
When I joined Talossa I witnessed people kind of really angry because they wouldn't get their way at holding cabinet positions while doing nothing at all. I believe you addressed this issue by saying that anyone can drop the ball at anytime and that governments should not let all responsabilities lie in a single person, which I concurr.
Fortunately, even though our Seneschal went through really hard times recently, he was kind enough to let other people step up. I invite everyone to do the same and to please never put Talossa over your well-being.

My feelings right now
And "in the spirit of transparency", I got to confess that I'm not that confident anymore to ask people in other parties to join my Dream Cabinet because I can picture them waiting for the right time to post about it trying to "embarass me" or something. Honestly, I also believe this is just a byproduct of election season but nonetheless it has made an impact in me. I'm working in not letting those kind of things get to me.


And finally
Individual proposals by TNC members are not the TNC proposals for next Cosa.  My intentions are honest and I wouldn't let power get in the way of letting all my fellow talossans speak their minds, but don't accuse me of anything for not showing up to the party in the first 30 minutes. I could say other things but, unlikely as it may look, I am willing to let it all go because this conversation is not leading Talossa into a better place.

Love and peace and respect.
Bråneu.
Fiován.

Miestră Schivă, UrN

I don't know how many more times I can emphasise that if only we could be assured that the current Distáin would not be nominated as Heir to the Throne - and that, if nominated, he would not serve - so much of the opposition to the current constitutional proposals would cease to have a basis. We can only conclude that getting the current Distáin made Heir to the Throne is the real agenda here, and all the scoffing and pearl clutching and "blargh blargh grandstanding blargh blargh scary smear argle-bargle vitriol" just indicate that one side is not honest about its real agenda.

PROTECT THE ORGLAW FROM POWER GRABS - NO POLITICISED KING! Vote THE FREE DEMOCRATS OF TALOSSA
¡LADINTSCHIÇETZ-VOI - rogetz-mhe cacsa!
"IS INACTIVITY BAD? I THINK NOT!" - Lord Hooligan

Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

#12
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on September 26, 2023, 10:33:10 PM
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on September 26, 2023, 03:45:03 PMI know you guys are running a purely negative campaign, so this is what you've got -- scary smears and silliness.  But I don't think this is the best approach.

Run a campaign about ideas!  Tell the people about what you want to accomplish, rather than what you want to destroy.  What do you want to build or fix?  How will you improve people's experiences here?  How will you grow the country, while still keeping it fun and interesting?  What is the joy you get from being here, and how will you share that joy with others?

It would be very convenient for the governing party if the Opposition never resorted to the dreaded "negative campaigning", wouldn't it?

I think it's pretty obvious how I and many others have been finding/sharing joy in Talossa over the past year; thankfully, it has had very little to do with politics.

Politics is a quest for the seat of power. Many (dare I say most or even all) things that build people up and spread joy can be accomplished outside of it.

The central FreeDem message is that we should win enough seats to prevent the TNC from fully attaining the seat of power, because we are rightly suspicious of what you would do with it.

Sorry if that's not enough sunshine and roses for you.

It's not about sunshine and roses... it's about any kind of a positive vision for the future of Talossa.  You guys are running a purely negative campaign.  But not only is that not healthy for the country, it's not even good politics.

The TNC won a majority this past term.  We were the first party to do so in ten years.  And we did it with a positive campaign where we promoted our ideas and plans.  It is not, in fact, better to just campaign with attacks.  Voters want to know what your party has to offer.

We want to tackle the very old problem of the database, for example.  This is a huge undertaking, but there's bipartisan agreement that we want to get it done.  It's not an exclusive goal, but we're campaigning on achieving this as a priority.  We can't rely on it since it's a black box that only one person can manage, and that's not fair to him or us.

We also want to have targeted immigration that will help us grow by appealing to places that we've never tried.  Our Seneschal candidate had the brilliant idea that we could go right to academics and other specific groups who might be interested, well beyond general advertising.

If voters pick the TNC, they know that we're going to try and do some cool stuff.  That's good politics!

There is certainly a place for negative campaigning, but we try to avoid it.  There's a lot that we could say.

I think that the Free Democrats had poor management at times, where it was really important to "know the right people."  I mean, remember that election where you guys campaigned on electing Miestra for the whole campaign, and then turned right around and made you Seneschal after the election, instead?  That was not cool.  It wasn't really lying to voters, since I know you only agreed to serve at the last minute, but it was pretty disrespectful to the voters.

Or remember when Free Democrat Txotsue Davinescu was serving as Seneschal, but actually completely absent from the job?  Miestra was actually serving as the real Seneschal.  Your party lied to the public to explicitly deny this, only to later admit that it had been true all along?  That's not respectful to the voters, but you guys did it because he was one of your own.

I mean, Dama Miestra wants to be Seneschal again.  We haven't attacked her record for those years she was in charge in any of our mailers.  She was Seneschal for almost all of 2019, all of 2020, and half of 2021.  In those thirty months, immigration ground to a stop.  Do you know how many immigrants we had during the entire year of 2021?  One!  She wants to be Seneschal again!

We haven't included any of this stuff in our mailers because we don't agree with this sort of negative campaigning.  We have worked hard to present our positive vision of the future because it's better for the country and because it's better politics.  It just brings everyone down and makes for big nasty fights when folks get down in the mud like this.  I don't think a lot of people will see this deep into the discussion, thankfully.

Could we take this opportunity to maybe discuss some plans or ideas you guys have?  You could very easily win -- what might you want to do if you did get another term in government?
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan


Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Miestră Schivă, UrN

#13
Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on September 27, 2023, 06:07:14 AMYou could very easily win

I'm honestly touched by the compliment, but lol, no we couldn't, you recruited all the active new citizens over the last term :D And that's okay, we snoozed, we lost! So the only question is whether you get the bulldozer majority to make yourself Heir to the Throne.

But on a less flippant note: the TNC's Seneschal candidate actually had a very good idea about a "Dream Cabinet" or "Cabinet of the Talents". He managed to annoy the Senator from Benito with it, but that was a misunderstanding. If (and let's be realistic, this is a dream scenario) the Free Democrats were somehow the largest party in the next Cosa, I too would want to form a cross-party government of the best people for the job. This would include at least one of the outgoing TNC Cabinet. We would see, in such a situation whether the TNC would accept.

PROTECT THE ORGLAW FROM POWER GRABS - NO POLITICISED KING! Vote THE FREE DEMOCRATS OF TALOSSA
¡LADINTSCHIÇETZ-VOI - rogetz-mhe cacsa!
"IS INACTIVITY BAD? I THINK NOT!" - Lord Hooligan