[PASSED] The Vacant Throne (We Really Mean Business Now) Amendment

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Maybe the solution is just to do a separate bill?  That would be easiest, and I think trust would extend that far at this point.  If they were viewed as a joint package, I'd support that (not that I have a vote, but I am pretty noisy).

Can we do a separate bill as a joint package, i.e. the two go up or go down together? I would be worried that one would get vetoed but the other passed.

I really really really doubt you need to worry about a veto. And yes the provisions can be easily written so that they are contingent on each other. That is a good solution. That wouldn't go in the text, but in the therefore clauses. I can do it tonight if you'd like.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

Maybe the solution is just to do a separate bill?  That would be easiest, and I think trust would extend that far at this point.  If they were viewed as a joint package, I'd support that (not that I have a vote, but I am pretty noisy).

Can we do a separate bill as a joint package, i.e. the two go up or go down together? I would be worried that one would get vetoed but the other passed.

I really really really doubt you need to worry about a veto. And yes the provisions can be easily written so that they are contingent on each other. That is a good solution. That wouldn't go in the text, but in the therefore clauses. I can do it tonight if you'd like.

Yeah good, I liked the wording in my Abdication Bill. If there really is no chance of a veto, this is the dignified way out.

[Svendecimus2024]

Happy to consider other suggestions for the Regency btw, but this is the existing procedure (with a tweak or two) as stipulated in OrgLaw II.5. We could even have a "sunset clause" to make sure we do actually choose a King in a decent time frame.

I have no issue with either this or the Active Monarchy Assurance Amendment going through, but if they both got Clarked and both passed, we'd be in trouble :D I just have a feeling that this has a better chance.

this is an excellent addition on the sunset clause BTW..

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Here are two linked bills.  I would like to reiterate that I still think we need oversight on the balloting process -- if it's the most recent Electoral Commission, that'd be fine too.

The Succession Amendment

Whereas, the monarchy is a central pillar of the country and its survival depends on its planned future as well as its activity, and

Whereas, this allows for democratic confirmations without becoming wholesale elections,

THEREFORE, the Ziu directs that Article II of the Organic Law, which currently read:

Section 1
The Kingdom of Talossa is a constitutional Monarchy with a King (or, if female, Queen) as its head of State.

Section 2
The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King certain Royal Powers and duties as described in this Organic Law and in statute law. The Ziu may establish procedures for when the King fails to perform a duty.

Section 3
The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

Section 4
In dire circumstances, when the King is judged by competent medical authority to be incapable of executing his duties, or if he is convicted by the Talossan Uppermost Cort of violation of this Organic Law, treason, bribery, nonfeasance endangering the safety, order or good government of the Kingdom, or other high crimes, the nation may remove the King from the Throne. The Cosa shall pronounce by a two-thirds vote, with the approval of the Senäts, that the King is to be removed, and this pronouncement shall immediately be transmitted to the people for their verdict in a referendum. If a two-thirds majority of the people concur, the King is removed.

Section 5
The King may, at whim, appoint, replace, or remove a Regent (or a Council of Regency, which is considered equivalent to a Regent), who shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, except the power to appoint or replace a Regent. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent or member of a Council of Regency. The Ziu may by law remove or replace any appointed Regent, and if the Ziu removes a Regent appointed by the King, the King may not reappoint the same person Regent without the prior consent of the Ziu.

Section 6
The King may grant titles of nobility and confer awards and decorations.

shall be amended to read as follows:

Section 1
The Kingdom of Talossa is a constitutional Monarchy with a King (or, if female, Queen) as its head of State.

Section 2
The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King certain Royal Powers and duties as described in this Organic Law and in statute law. In addition, the King may grant titles of nobility and confer awards and decorations. The Ziu may establish procedures for when the King fails to perform a duty.

Section 3
The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne.  Upon his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne, the new King shall be the Heir Presumptive, who shall be the duly-designated successor to the throne.  The new King shall likewise be succeeded in the same manner, and thus forever in perpetuity.

Section 4
Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne.  However, the King may abdicate without renouncing his citizenship.

Section 5
In dire circumstances, when the King is judged by competent medical authority to be incapable of executing his duties, or if he is convicted by the Talossan Uppermost Cort of violation of this Organic Law, treason, bribery, nonfeasance endangering the safety, order or good government of the Kingdom, or other high crimes, the nation may remove the King from the Throne. The Cosa shall pronounce by a two-thirds vote, with the approval of the Senäts, that the King is to be removed, and this pronouncement shall immediately be transmitted to the people for their verdict in a referendum. If a two-thirds majority of the people concur, the King is removed.

Section 6
The King may, at whim, appoint, replace, or remove a Regent (or a Council of Regency, which is considered equivalent to a Regent), who shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, except the power to appoint or replace a Regent. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent or member of a Council of Regency. The Ziu may by law remove or replace any appointed Regent, and if the Ziu removes a Regent appointed by the King, the King may not reappoint the same person Regent without the prior consent of the Ziu.

Section 7
The King may nominate an Heir Presumptive by special decree to the Ziu.  This decree shall take effect upon approval of a two-thirds supermajority of the Cosa and majority approval of the Senäts, and by a majority of the people.

Section 8
Upon any vacancy on the Throne with no Heir Presumptive, the Secretary of State shall announce a convocation of succession.  This announcement will include details of the convocation of succession, as described by the Secretary of State. This announcement shall further include a list of all those who have been citizens no fewer than seven full years prior to that date, and who are therefore eligible electors of the convocation.  The Secretary of State shall shall immediately thereafter notify all of these electors of the convocation and their responsibilities. The Secretary of State shall also include in this announcement a set of proposed rules and procedures for the convocation of succession, for public debate and consideration. The convocation of succession's first order of business shall be to approve, with or without modifications, the rules under which it will operate, which may differ from the Secretary of State's proposals, but may not contradict this Organic Law.

Fourteen days after this announcement, the convocation shall be deemed to have commenced.  It shall be chaired by the Secretary of State in a fair manner designed to foster open discussion and faithful service, unless a different chair is elected by the convocation of succession by the expressed preference of an absolute majority of members, or by the expressed preference of a plurality of members within a period of seven days. The convocation shall vote by secret ballot on a King.  All electors' votes shall have equal weight, and whichever candidate first receives the support of two-thirds of the convocation shall be deemed the nominee of the convocation of succession.  No votes for ineligible candidates shall be considered. This choice shall be submitted to the people by referendum for their approval.  Should a majority of the people approve of the nominee, they shall be King of the Kingdom of Talossa.

Section 9
For the duration of any time during which the throne is empty, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

This bill shall only come into effect (a) upon the full passage and approval of the Decree Amendment of 2024/XLV or (b) upon the death, abdication, or removal of His Majesty King John I.

The Decree Amendment

Whereas it is universally acknowledged that it is time for gratitude and progress forward,

THEREFORE the Ziu decrees, effective thirty days from the ratification of this amendment by the people, that the throne is vacant as though King John I had abdicated, and King John I is once more an ordinary citizen, with all of the rights and privileges of the same, released from his office and his duties with the nation's gratitude for his long service.  The Secretary of State is directed to begin immediate preparations for a convocation of succession.

This bill shall only come into effect upon the full passage and approval of the Succession Amendment of 2024/XLV; it shall be considered chronologically to have come into effect immediately after the Succession Amendment of 2024/XLV, rather than simultaneously.  This bill shall not come into effect if His Majesty King John I has died, abdicated, or been removed from the throne.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

I understand the worries about oversight; but if we want the Convocation to be independent (to the point where the Ziu aren't allowed to set rules for it), then we have to believe that it can decide for itself what kind of scrutiny its votes may have. In any case, there is a larger "check" on screwery, that being the Ziu and referendum confirmation.

But I hope the last bit assuages the CRL's worries?

[Ian Plätschisch]

Looks good

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

@Sir Lüc it's been 10 days since AD dropped his first draft, can this get the nod now?

[Sir Lüc]

Sure, go forth and Clark.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

Guidance from @Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB please - do we have to Clark this as one amendment or two?

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

It's two.

[Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB]

Guidance from @Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB please - do we have to Clark this as one amendment or two?

It must be Clarked as two amendments based on how it is written.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I'd suggest that under the circumstances, we can dispense with the circumstantial clause in the Succession Amendment. His Majesty has pledged to abdicate once things are set. We can also dispense with the other bill entirely. His Majesty would never renege on a public pledge of this sort.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

I have no reason to believe that His Majesty has the intent to go back on his pledge to abdicate once he is "satisfied that there will yet remain to our Kingdom a monarch to safeguard her honours and her majesties". Emphasis added; the King is signalling the kind of person (with the kind of agenda) he hopes to nominate. It could be a long time before such a person can be found who would be acceptable to a Ziu supermajority.

I will consult my party ASAP but I hope we can still Clark this in time.

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

I have no reason to believe that His Majesty has the intent to go back on his pledge to abdicate once he is "satisfied that there will yet remain to our Kingdom a monarch to safeguard her honours and her majesties". Emphasis added; the King is signalling the kind of person (with the kind of agenda) he hopes to nominate. It could be a long time before such a person can be found who would be acceptable to a Ziu supermajority.

I will consult my party ASAP but I hope we can still Clark this in time.

I hope we can move forward with both bills too. This seems like a remarkable opportunity for progress.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Under these terms, when his Majesty is offering exactly what was demanded, it would seem particularly ungracious for the legislature to suddenly reverse itself and insist on forcible deposing. I would hope that this body would not be so shabby.