[PASSED] The Vacant Throne (We Really Mean Business Now) Amendment

[þerxh Sant-Enogat]

We do still need to fix some of the fine details to make it work. I notice that you seem to be trying to steer me away from writing any of the actual text of the bill. Would you prefer to do it yourself, and I can just tell you the problems with the text as it stands? Or would you prefer I write a modified draft of what you have proposed?

With respect, while I've been trying to take all your ideas into consideration, the goal has always been to get at least 3 TNC MCs to support *anything* that would do the job. I think I've made a significant error in the last few days, and that's that I've been rapidly rewriting my proposal to cover your objections/suggestions, but not making reference to what the people with an actual vote want!

Despite our ongoing differences, Brenéir has been happy with whatever I've put up, and M. Yasir has apparently been nodding in the background as well. Dama Litz isn't talking, so I've been trying to find something that could get @þerxh Sant-Enogat or @Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat (preferably both) on board. Originally they both supported the "clean decapitation" with some caveats; since then they've flipped to insisting the King name his successor, apparently swung by your arguments. That's the last I heard from them.

I've been asking them in PMs but no response for days, so I think we need to make this public. Þerxh and Carlüs, do you support my draft legislation as it stands, including all the suggestions that AD has made? Or do you prefer an earlier phase of suggestions? Or - possibly - is it just that you require AD to write the final draft?

(ETA: Carlüs has responded in PM, thanks very much!)

In any case, there remains 3 days before this can go to the CRL so anyone can suggest further amendments, but if at least 3 TNC MCs won't back it we're wasting our time.

Your proposal seems ok for me (better with alternative 4), sorry for late answer

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

Then I think we have consensus!

Happy to hear suggestions for minor tweaks etc before it goes to the CRL in 3 days.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Well obvious problems with the convocation process still exist! Can I write up a new version of it or tell you what the problems are again? Most fundamentally, it's a terrible idea to have the people holding the power schedule out when an election will happen and run the process for the most part.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

Well obvious problems with the convocation process still exist! Can I write up a new version of it or tell you what the problems are again? Most fundamentally, it's a terrible idea to have the people holding the power schedule out when an election will happen and run the process for the most part.

Huh, I didn't think there would be a problem with the CpI initiating the process; but on the other hand I just realised the CpI act as Regents in case of a vacancy, so you could be right. Interested to hear of alternatives either in full draft format or just suggestions, but I still want this done in 2 days if possible. And of course that applies to the whole act.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Okay then, here we go.  I solved the convocation thing by having the SoS run it as chair, but their decision appealable to the Uppermost Cort and with voting overseen by the heads of the Ziu.  I also fixed a lot of language and simplified a bit.  I think it solves all the problems I saw; hypothetically someone could try to game the system by appealing to the CpI over and over, but I don't think that's much of a path to corruption.  I removed all the timeline stuff and statute stuff that would let governments or officials try to meddle and game the system.  I kept more of the original language (why borrow trouble?)

The Succession Amendment

Whereas, the monarchy is a central pillar of the country and its survival depends on its planned future as well as its activity, and

Whereas, this allows for democratic confirmations without becoming wholesale elections,

THEREFORE, the Ziu directs that Article II of the Organic Law, which currently read:

Section 1
The Kingdom of Talossa is a constitutional Monarchy with a King (or, if female, Queen) as its head of State.

Section 2
The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King certain Royal Powers and duties as described in this Organic Law and in statute law. The Ziu may establish procedures for when the King fails to perform a duty.

Section 3
The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

Section 4
In dire circumstances, when the King is judged by competent medical authority to be incapable of executing his duties, or if he is convicted by the Talossan Uppermost Cort of violation of this Organic Law, treason, bribery, nonfeasance endangering the safety, order or good government of the Kingdom, or other high crimes, the nation may remove the King from the Throne. The Cosa shall pronounce by a two-thirds vote, with the approval of the Senäts, that the King is to be removed, and this pronouncement shall immediately be transmitted to the people for their verdict in a referendum. If a two-thirds majority of the people concur, the King is removed.

Section 5
The King may, at whim, appoint, replace, or remove a Regent (or a Council of Regency, which is considered equivalent to a Regent), who shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, except the power to appoint or replace a Regent. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent or member of a Council of Regency. The Ziu may by law remove or replace any appointed Regent, and if the Ziu removes a Regent appointed by the King, the King may not reappoint the same person Regent without the prior consent of the Ziu.

Section 6
The King may grant titles of nobility and confer awards and decorations.

shall be amended to read as follows:

Section 1
The Kingdom of Talossa is a constitutional Monarchy with a King (or, if female, Queen) as its head of State.

Section 2
The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King certain Royal Powers and duties as described in this Organic Law and in statute law. In addition, the King may grant titles of nobility and confer awards and decorations.

Section 3
The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne.  Upon his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne, the new King shall be the Heir Presumptive, who shall be the duly-designated successor to the throne.  The new King shall likewise be succeeded in the same manner, and thus forever in perpetuity.

Section 4
Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne.  However, the King may abdicate without renouncing his citizenship.

Section 5
In dire circumstances, when the King is judged by competent medical authority to be incapable of executing his duties, or if he is convicted by the Talossan Uppermost Cort of violation of this Organic Law, treason, bribery, nonfeasance endangering the safety, order or good government of the Kingdom, or other high crimes, the nation may remove the King from the Throne. The Cosa shall pronounce by a two-thirds vote, with the approval of the Senäts, that the King is to be removed, and this pronouncement shall immediately be transmitted to the people for their verdict in a referendum. If a two-thirds majority of the people concur, the King is removed.

Section 6
The King may, at whim, appoint, replace, or remove a Regent (or a Council of Regency, which is considered equivalent to a Regent), who shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, except the power to appoint or replace a Regent. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent or member of a Council of Regency. The Ziu may by law remove or replace any appointed Regent, and if the Ziu removes a Regent appointed by the King, the King may not reappoint the same person Regent without the prior consent of the Ziu.

Section 7
The King may nominate an Heir Presumptive by special decree to the Ziu.  This decree shall take effect upon approval of a two-thirds supermajority of the Ziu and by a majority of the people.

Section 8
Upon any vacancy on the Throne with no Heir Presumptive, the Secretary of State shall announce a convocation of succession.  This announcement will include details of the convocation of succession, as described by the Secretary of State.  The Secretary of State shall also include in this announcement a set of proposed rules and procedures for the convocation of succession, for public debate and consideration.  This announcement shall further include a list of all those who have been citizens no fewer than seven full years prior to that date, and who are therefore eligible electors of the convocation.  The Secretary of State shall shall immediately thereafter notify all of these electors of the convocation and their responsibilities.

Fourteen days after this announcement, the convocation shall be deemed to have commenced.  It shall be chaired by the Secretary of State in a fair manner designed to foster open discussion and faithful service.  The convocation of succession's first order of business shall be to approve, with or without modifications, the rules under which it will operate.   A decision of the chair may be appealed to the Uppermost Cort.  The convocation shall vote by secret ballot on a King.  The Túischac'h dal Cosa and the Mençei dal Senäts shall observe voting and ensure its fidelity.  All electors' votes shall have equal weight, and whichever candidate first receives the support of two-thirds of the convocation shall be deemed the nominee of the convocation of succession.  No votes for ineligible candidates shall be considered.  This choice shall be submitted to the people by referendum for their approval.  Should a majority of the people approve of the nominee, they shall be King of the Kingdom of Talossa.

Section 9
For the duration of any time during which the throne is empty, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

[þerxh Sant-Enogat]

Thanks for this detailed and clear text.
For my understanding : In the current set-up we are at least sure to have the CpI acting as a council of regency if no conclusive vote happens (section 3). The proposed new system may lead to a state without even this council of regency (if no regent nominated by the King and no conclusive vote on heir presumptive and king replacement) ?

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

The new Section 9 would cover that, stating, "For the duration of any time during which the throne is empty, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency."  An error... I wonder if it should be placed somewhere else?

[Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN]

No, it's fine in a section on it's own, like in the old '97 OrgLaw. 


No major objections on my part, but a few points on the proposed text:

1) Section 3, needs some capital K's for the King. 
2) I think there needs to be some provision in there that, in the announcement of the Convocation of Succession, the SoS proposes how the Convocation of Succession will be run/the rules (e.g. nominations periods, voting method, how long voting will be open for etc..) and that the first act of the Electors is to approve by majority vote (or 2/3rds) said rules. Like the way the SoS announces how a GE is run and the EC approves said. No point appealing to the CpI when there is no established set of rules. 
3) Another idea is that if the SoS becomes a candidate/get nominated for King, then the SoS should recuse him/herself as Chair and nominate another to take his/her place.   

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

1) Section 3, needs some capital K's for the King.

Fixed.

2) I think there needs to be some provision in there that, in the announcement of the Convocation of Succession, the SoS proposes how the Convocation of Succession will be run/the rules (e.g. nominations periods, voting method, how long voting will be open for etc..) and that the first act of the Electors is to approve by majority vote (or 2/3rds) said rules. Like the way the SoS announces how a GE is run and the EC approves said. No point appealing to the CpI when there is no established set of rules.

I added, "The Secretary of State shall also include in this announcement a set of proposed rules and procedures for the convocation of succession, for public debate and consideration" and later "The convocation of succession's first order of business shall be to approve, with or without modifications, the rules under which it will operate."

3) Another idea is that if the SoS becomes a candidate/get nominated for King, then the SoS should recuse him/herself as Chair and nominate another to take his/her place.

I added, "No votes for ineligible candidates shall be considered."  That way the SoS can't be forced to recuse by nominating him, but also can't receive any votes.

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

The change appears to force the SoS to resign upon nomination as king which I do not support. I support recusal (and note to myself this is another option to address conflicts caused by an SoS taking on partisan political positions...)

I also can't support the Baron's succession proposal without some connection with King John designating a successor and giving a timeline for abdication.

[Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB]

I added, "No votes for ineligible candidates shall be considered."  That way the SoS can't be forced to recuse by nominating him, but also can't receive any votes.

Are you suggesting then that whomever the SoS is at the time of a convocation, he/she cannot be selected?

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

I'm not sure yet what I think about the substantive issue (who calls/runs the Conclave), but I'm glad other people have pointed up problems. I have two problems at first sight, one of which is probably a drafting error, the other of which is an issue of principle:

1) s.7, "This decree shall take effect upon approval of a two-thirds supermajority of the Ziu". This neglects that we have a bicameral system - is this supposed to require a 2/3 majority in the Senäts? I much prefer my simple proposal to mirror OrgLaw amendments.

2) The second issue is that this amendment is supposed to be an overall amendment of the whole Section II of the current OrgLaw, including II.4 (the piece on a legal overthrow of the monarchy), which is reproduced as paragraph 5 of the Amendment. I have long contended that this section is useless as it's a higher bar to clear than simply amending the OrgLaw to overthrow the King. So I wouldn't support it being "reaffirmed".

There is now a third issue, which I didn't think about until Brenéir mentioned it. My proposal was to split up the Abdication and the Succession. But Brenéir has pointed out that it is possible that the King will approve of the Succession law but refuse to abdicate. Which would be a tricky, sneaky way of putting us in exactly the situation which the TNC proposed before the last election - and the FreeDems would rather die in a ditch than accept. This is made weirder by the fact that the King is clearly here now and refuses us to give any clear view of his intentions.

If he's going to be like that, maybe it's better not to Clark anything yet and wait for a clear direction on abdication? Or alternative to write a term limit to the reign of King John into the Succession amendment?

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

All of these things are pretty easy to fix. I was just going to let someone else draft the sunset language, but I'm happy to do it too.

I just got back from seder, so give me a little bit and I think all of the stuff is pretty easily remedied.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

Too complicated. Puts too much power into the SoS's hands and then has to introduce a bunch of checks and balances to take it back out again. But, on the other hand, taking the CpI out of the equation is good (though it should be done consistently). I like this procedure - phrased as an amendment to my own proposal because I wouldn't want to unpick AD's carefully-chosen language.

1. The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne.

2. The King may nominate an Heir Presumptive, to be approved by the Ziu and people by the same procedure as for an ordinary amendment of this Organic Law.

3. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne.

4. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Heir Presumptive shall become King.

Upon any vacancy on the Throne with no Heir Presumptive, a Convocation of Succession shall be called by the Secretary of State, who shall send a message to all eligible electors announcing the Convocation and providing instructions on how and when to register to participate. The Convocation shall commence fourteen days from the moment the Secretary of State sends the message to the electors.

Any Talossan shall who became a citizen no less than seven years before the date when the Secretary of State sends the message shall be eligible to be an elector in the Convocation, but only those who register with the Secretary of State before the Convocation commences shall be electors.

The Secretary of State shall establish or choose a forum for the Convocation to begin its business. The first business of the Convocation shall be to elect a Chair, by either open support of an absolute majority of Convocation members, or open support of a plurality of Convocation members at the end of 7 days.

An Heir Presumptive to the Throne of Talossa shall be chosen by the expressed support of 2/3 of the Convocation in a secret ballot, and submitted to the Ziu and people for ratification by the same procedure as for an ordinary amendment of this Organic Law

All discussions of the Convocation shall be open, and the votes of every elector shall have equal weight. The rules shall have a provision for vacating the Chair and electing a new one. All other rules of the Convocation not mentioned above shall be decided by the Convocation itself.

5. During any time that the throne is vacant and there is no Heir Presumptive, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency in accordance with law.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

Oh, and I just noticed after agonizing over this wording for a while that AD's proposal removes the Ziu's role in ratifying the Conclave's choice. Was this deliberate?