Immigration Discussion

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

To be honest, the idea of replacing the essay requirement with a very brief, 10-point multi-choice "civics quiz" which you can pass just by reading the front page of talossa.com is growing on me. Something that couldn't be easily brute-forced by a spambot.

I'd support this.
- Tests are unbiased (well, less so anyway) compared to essay questions.
- As you say, spambots can't really force their way through (nor can you really ChatGPT your way through, lol)
- If you can't be bothered to take a ten-question quiz to demonstrate the faintest interest in Talossa, with all due respect, what brings you here? This is like the bare minimum.
- The "two sponsor" method now in use should stay, IMO.

Azul,

We should go back to a vote in both chambers, Cosa and Senate, like in the good old days. People had to network to get the support of parliamentarians. Personally, I often use Google Translate and Chat GPT to translate my texts from French to English. For me, the goal of making immigration more complex is simply to avoid having more people who do not participate. Our goal should be to have people ready to show us their desire to participate in the improvement of the kingdom; our immigration laws should reflect this.

Mximo

I can't say I'm in favor of citizenship votes. That basically means the Government of the day actually has a much easier path than they do now of filtering prospective citizens based on political alignment. I could maybe see an argument that the two petitioners must be one MC and one Senator, maybe, because at least then all you need is one, not 50%+1.

Glad to see the idea for a basic civics quiz, as a less subjective approach, has multipartisan support. Hopefully this can be a co-sponsored bill. And that we can move past the essay.

[King Txec]

The discussion was de-railing the immigration thread so I moved it out into a thread of its own.

[owenedwards]

If you want to avoid AI, make it handwritten. (This will not be adopted, I understand. I'm just telling you that between that and actual invigilated exams, those are the only reasonable methods we have against AI cheating academically - and even they are only "very good", not perfect.)

[King Txec]

If you want to avoid AI, make it handwritten. (This will not be adopted, I understand. I'm just telling you that between that and actual invigilated exams, those are the only reasonable methods we have against AI cheating academically - and even they are only "very good", not perfect.)

Too bad we couldn't figure out how to do video essays or something.

-Txec R

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

The solution is to stop trying to screen essays for whether a person is acceptable, and instead just focus on whether or not they're engaging and making any connections.  I frankly do not care if someone uses AI as a communication tool -- it's a pretty great tool, and it's only going to happen if we keep on scrutinizing essays in this way.

We should welcome people who want to be Talossans, including those who have a learning disability or are still learning English as a second language.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

If you just want *no* quality control on immigration, for all immigration applications to be automatically posted to this board, just say so.

[þerxh Sant-Enogat]

The solution is to stop trying to screen essays for whether a person is acceptable, and instead just focus on whether or not they're engaging and making any connections.

You're right, definitely. The question is not to assess what Talossa has already brought to prospective immigrants, but rather to assess what they would be able to bring with them.
A questionnaire could be required instead of the essay, to enquire what are their passions, their skills, their wishes.. This would surely allow more interactions from us all.
We should make it smart enough to provide fun and information on us, and generate interest for further interactions. We however need to avoid building a manichean due-diligence questionnaire "would you be a good Talossan".

[owenedwards]

If you just want *no* quality control on immigration, for all immigration applications to be automatically posted to this board, just say so.

I wouldn't want this, personally.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Yeah, it's kind of a false dilemma to say the choice is between a test or nothing.  There's a ton of different approaches we can try.

We do have a questionnaire, but it's actually a great idea from þerxh to inquire about more specific interests... like, "check all of the activities that interest you" kind of thing.  That would also let us know why people were interested in immigrating in the first place!

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

I do like the idea of scrapping the essay entirely and replacing with a list of basic questions to help the applicant learn more about the Kingdom. I think establishing the Witt account and the discussion that occurs during the consideration window is sufficient to explore their specific interests.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

We do have a questionnaire, but it's actually a great idea from þerxh to inquire about more specific interests... like, "check all of the activities that interest you" kind of thing.  That would also let us know why people were interested in immigrating in the first place!

We already have that. I brought it in in the last term.

El Lexhatx E.2.3 The Immigration Minister shall also allow every applicant to indicate, whether in the essay described elsewhere in this section or otherwise, what part or parts of Talossan life are the Special Interests of the applicant. These may include Politics, Language, Culture, Heraldry, or any other categories as the Minister may see fit or that may be suggested by the applicant.

I don't mind political criticism, but informed political criticism is more useful.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

That's excellent. I didn't know that. I must have missed the announcement about that change. Maybe we can fix how that is outputted and emphasize it on the form a little more? Right now it's some radio boxes, but it might be helpful to define what each one means and make it stand out a little more.

[þerxh Sant-Enogat]

I was more thinking about a longer questionaire, as I said to assess skills, passion, desires,..
Our favorite AI proposed a first draft as below, which gives an exemple of what could replace both an essay and a tick-the-box form. Tell me what you think.

Welcome to the Kingdom of Talossa
Prospective Immigrant Questionnaire

Before we begin, take a deep breath. This isn't a test—it's an invitation. We want to know you, not grill you. So please, answer honestly, creatively, and with as much personality as you dare.

⸻

Section I: Who Are You, Really?
   1.   What is your full name, or the name you would like to be known by in Talossa?
   2.   Where on Earth do you currently reside (rough coordinates are fine)?
   3.   How did you discover Talossa?
   4.   What drew you to Talossa—curiosity, community, chaos, or something else?
   5.   If Talossa had a Ministry of Magic, which department would you want to run?
   6.   Describe your ideal Talossan day in one paragraph (feel free to include mythical creatures).
   7.   Do you identify more with the sea, the mountains, or the stars? Why?

⸻

Section II: Skills, Spells, and Special Talents
   8.   What languages do you speak, write, or wave flags in?
   9.   Do you have experience in any of the following: governance, coding, art, diplomacy, cooking, bureaucracy, or herding cats?
   10.   On a scale of 1–10, how organized are you? (10 being "filed my dreams alphabetically")
   11.   Can you play a musical instrument? If so, which, and how well?
   12.   Have you ever built a website, fixed a radio, or made a game from scratch?
   13.   Describe one skill you could teach to a Talossan high council.
   14.   What's the weirdest skill or trivia fact you know?

⸻

Section III: Hobbies, Habits, and Sunday Rituals
   15.   What do you do for fun when the power goes out?
   16.   Which of these is closest to your idea of paradise: a library, a tavern, a forge, or a forest?
   17.   Do you journal, write stories, or engage in other wordsmithing?
   18.   How do you feel about snail mail? (Be honest, our postal service has feelings.)
   19.   What's your relationship with flags, insignias, and national anthems?
   20.   Would you rather invent a new calendar or a new alphabet?
   21.   What board or tabletop games do you enjoy?
   22.   Describe your favorite imaginary country from childhood (or adulthood—we don't judge).

⸻

Section IV: Philosophy, Civics, and A Dash of Mischief
   23.   What does citizenship mean to you?
   24.   How involved do you want to be in the day-to-day governance of Talossa? (options: Watcher | Occasional Voter | Eager Participant | Future King/Queen/Royal Platypus)
   25.   Do you lean more toward anarchy, monarchy, or something in-between that you just made up?
   26.   What laws would you propose for a small, creative nation like ours?
   27.   Would you be open to running for office, even if that office is Minister of Sock Puppetry?
   28.   In your view, what makes a nation real?
   29.   Would you be willing to write a short piece for the Talossan Gazette every now and then?

⸻

Section V: Desires and Dreams
   30.   What do you hope to gain from becoming a Talossan?
   31.   What do you hope to give?
   32.   If you could launch one national project, what would it be?
   33.   What would you name your own province within Talossa?
   34.   If Talossa had a national spaceship, what should we call it?

⸻

Section VI: The Personal Touch
   35.   Coffee, tea, or mead?
   36.   Describe yourself in three adjectives—one must be made-up.
   37.   What is something you've always wanted to do, but haven't yet?
   38.   What book, film, or game most captures your sense of the ideal society?
   39.   Do you have any pets (real or imaginary)?
   40.   Finally, what's your personal motto—or if you don't have one, make one up right now.

⸻

End of Questionnaire
Thank you for your honesty, your wit, and your curiosity. You may now close the scroll, submit your thoughts, or tie your answers to a pigeon. We'll be watching the skies

[Barclamïu da Miéletz]

Do you identify more with the sea, the mountains, or the stars?

We could get that (only the mountains) if we would annex Bavaria ;)

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

I don't have a principled objection to Þerxh's approach although IMHO that's far too much, and daunting, and by a staggering coincidence resembles the list Þerxh used to give prospectives *after* they'd signed in.

I think that we're all on the same page that we want to avoid "spam applications", I just think we have different definitions of spam.