Green Party Summit Review

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

So let's do that, then. We can even specify the specific misbehavior and make it clear that those in support are explicitly condemning that behavior. Play stupid games and wins stupid prizes, I guess?

I don't think there was any misbehavior but I support the strengthening of moderation to prevent rough music in the future. So I will be personally supporting the bill. This show is getting old and it seems the time has come to officialize the work of the Summit.

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

Sure thing. I already wrote up a lot of what he did and we have the other stuff from earlier in the thread, so it should be pretty easy to put together. I have a lot going on today and tomorrow (d&d game for my daughters, softball for my daughters, and then my d&d game), but shouldn't be a big problem to get it done in short order.

Looks like you all are getting close. Looking forwarding to seeing the draft too as this should be a precedent-setting moment.

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

As written I would vote against this. I think it comes off as a personal attack against an individual. While I agree with the intent I think the "naming and shaming" part should be removed. It comes off as petulant and childish. I also am concerned about the possibility of this being used as a weapon against future individuals. For example Miestra Schiva says Munditens is "cute" and Breneir then states that Munditens privately told him that he was offended (whether it was said or not) at which point Miestra's good name is dragged through the mud until such time as Munditens comes forward and says that no such thing was actually said. By that time the damage could be done. Accusations need to be done personally not through channels and they need to be made in a timely manner.

This is well-stated and the example highlights the oddity of this situation. I am quoting the King below, in relation to the example:

Here's a first draft.  It was tempting to make it vague, but I think that would harm our specific efforts to "name and shame."  The Chancery -- and everyone -- has to see that we're not afraid to take sides against harassment.



WHEREAS on October 17th, Breneir Tzaracomprada told another citizen he was cute amidst an aggressive policy dispute.  This made the other citizen uncomfortable, but when told that he was being rude, he reiterated that he thought the target of his affections was cute.  Several people again reminded him that was inappropriate behavior, but S:reu Tzaracomprada took it further, saying he thought his target was handsome and that he'd tell anyone who asked.  He said he'd keep saying whatever he wanted.

Some weeks later, S:reu Tzaracomprada followed up these incidents by saying that he thought the same young man was "suave and debonair."  He repeated it again when asked to stop.  And he loudly proclaimed that he would continue to engage in this behavior, even when told very clearly that his target was deeply unhappy with his attentions, and

WHEREAS this treatment of another Talossan was unacceptable.  Behavior must be considered in context: there's nothing wrong with the word "cute" in many other situations, nor is it unreasonable to compliment someone's physical beauty at times.  However, this behavior was situationally inappropriate: (a) the "compliments" were combined with antagonism, (b) they were directed by an older person to a much younger person with no real existing relationship, and (c) S:reu Tzaracomprada was made aware that his target was very uncomfortable with the behavior.  It is clear in context, then, that S:reu Tzaracomprada was engaging in sexual harassment and

WHEREAS S:reu Tzaracomprada has made it clear that he does not regret his behavior, suggesting that it might happen again, and

WHEREAS it is awkward for the administrators of Wittenberg to act to limit this sexual harassment, considering S:reu Tzaracomprada is the sole vocal legislator for a political party, and this hesitance is understandable but not sustainable, and

WHEREAS it materially harms the Kingdom of Talossa to permit it to become a place where one citizen can sexually harass another with impunity,

THEREFORE be it known that it is the sense of the Ziu that any further misbehavior by S:reu Tzaracomprada must not be tolerated by the administrators of Wittenberg and the Chancery.

Similarly, anyone else acting in such a way must meet firm consequences in a timely manner.  We encourage the administrator(s) of Wittenberg to be more proactive in general in their efforts to curtail personal or sexual harassment by other citizens.  Heated debate is wonderful, sharp words might be necessary, but persistent and unapologetic harassment needs to be addressed.

The Chancery is hereby further encouraged to appoint an official to whom this power is delegated, considering that the Secretary of State might feel conflicted if they are the personally the target of harassment.

No one deserves to be treated this way.

I believe that any proposal should have some teeth including penalties and such. I proposed some ideas in a different thread that might be worth codifying here. I also believe that for Wittiquette to truly have the intended effect, it should also be codified into El Lex.

-Txec R

I agree with the King here and with Dien who has expressed this concern previously. With a Sense of the Ziu there are no codified policy changes just a reiteration of accusations and opprobrium which have no practical bearing on behavior as has been demonstrated repeatedly. We need to codify any changes which are planned to be enforced within Wittiquette into El Lex and we need to be sure there are protections for both the defendant and the plaintiff.

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

I am curious why your rebuttal must use Dame Miestra as your example? Why not simply say "Jane" or "Joe" or something similar?

It sounds like my name got dragged in here because, since Lüc and Brenéir have preferred not to take the lead, Tric'hard sees me as the protagonist here, and is seeing all this as a political ploy to "get" Brenéir rather than a response to real, damaging, antisocial behaviour.

Reader's Note: Miestra edited her post to clean up her response to Tric'hard's concern but I suspect she meant "Luc and Braneu?"

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

As written I would vote against this. I think it comes off as a personal attack against an individual. While I agree with the intent I think the "naming and shaming" part should be removed. It comes off as petulant and childish. I also am concerned about the possibility of this being used as a weapon against future individuals. For example Miestra Schiva says Munditens is "cute" and Breneir then states that Munditens privately told him that he was offended (whether it was said or not) at which point Miestra's good name is dragged through the mud until such time as Munditens comes forward and says that no such thing was actually said. By that time the damage could be done. Accusations need to be done personally not through channels and they need to be made in a timely manner.

Well, it's definitely describing one person's behavior in particular. I wouldn't characterize it as a personal attack, since it's describing things that are easily verifiable. It sounds bad because his behavior was really bad. It was so bad it motivated an unprecedented interparty meeting to try to figure out what to do.

My fear is that if we just say something generic, then there really isn't much point to this at all. If we are afraid to actually call someone out for their behavior, then that is just going to be continued permission for them to continue acting that way.

I don't see any particular danger that this could be used as a weapon, because there's no actual new law being made here. It's a statement of support for specific actions and condemning specific behavior.

I don't see the need to use anyone's name as part of the law. Yes in the future should people violate the law then certainly they should be named, but it isn't necessary in the law itself. It comes off as an attack against that individual, it almost makes it sound like "anyone else can do it but we are going to bury this person" to me

Well stated again.

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

No, I don't think it's a waste of time to call out someone for their misbehavior.  He hasn't apologized or admitted to what he's done.  He's gotten away with it in part because the Witt admins are hesitant to punish him since he's the head of a political party and he holds grudges for years.  He's going to keep getting away with it unless we show him that we're all opposed to him preying on other Talossans.

I want to thank Tric'hard for helping show what this Summit has become. If you really believe that I'm getting away with something (harassment by compliments apparently?) then the first step would be making policy changes to address what you believe I'm getting away with. Instead you are getting another statement. I would repeat again, even as the target of this project, we need actual policy change not another statement, and so I'm in agreement with the King, Dien, and now Tric'hard.

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

Can I suggest urgency on this? Brenéir is at it again in the Cosa, attempting to destroy the Túischac'h for attempting to moderate him. Once again, accusations of political bias are all that bad actors need, under the current situation, to make themselves unmanageable.

If by "at it again," you mean referring to your own toxic words and expressing concern over a very dangerous change to the Opposition's ability to hold the Government to account. Then yes I am at it again, Miestra.