[Royal] Announcing the Royal Commission on Immigration

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

And again you miss the entire point,

Ok so let me ask again, what is the draw for people to become a Talossan and stick around?

My objection was to your claim that no Government has succeeded in improving the immigration rate.  That's wrong.  There are a lot of things the Government could be trying.  (And if the Government thinks something will help, they should do it even if I disagree, and then celebrate when immigration improves -- that's electoral democracy!  Try lots of things.)

But I do think this line of questioning might get at some of the problem... Antaglha, don't you like being here?  Isn't there anything you like to do in Talossa?

People can learn the language using a series of new language lessons, or they can join electoral politics and participate from the start in either their province or nationally, or they can join the Coletx and do fun heraldry/feudal stuff, or they can join the Royal Academy and talk about any bit of erudition they like, or they can do their own new project like license plates or whatever, or join one of the many game competitions or music programs... I mean, the list goes on!  We have a lot to offer!  Talossa is great!

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

If the house is on fire, you will find that the firefighters object to spraying it with gasoline

You don't *really* think that changing the election of Senators from provincial to at-large is burning the house down. I'd prefer you quit it with the overheated (see what I did there?) rhetoric.

[Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir]

My objection was to your claim that no Government has succeeded in improving the immigration rate.  That's wrong.  There are a lot of things the Government could be trying.  (And if the Government thinks something will help, they should do it even if I disagree, and then celebrate when immigration improves -- that's electoral democracy!  Try lots of things.)

But I do think this line of questioning might get at some of the problem... Antaglha, don't you like being here?  Isn't there anything you like to do in Talossa?

People can learn the language using a series of new language lessons, or they can join electoral politics and participate from the start in either their province or nationally, or they can join the Coletx and do fun heraldry/feudal stuff, or they can join the Royal Academy and talk about any bit of erudition they like, or they can do their own new project like license plates or whatever, or join one of the many game competitions or music programs... I mean, the list goes on!  We have a lot to offer!  Talossa is great!

Ok, so when was the last time the Talossan language was taught? Our politics is actually going to be a big turn off for people with the way things are between the parties right now. On both sides of the table here.

Heraldry, you get to have person crest commissioned or possibly join to help create them. But the first happens once, the latter only matters when Talossa has people immigrating.

Whilst there may be some things going on. Honestly right now, Talossa is mostly exhausted and nowhere near as active as it used to be, and provincial activity rarely happens now days, and in some provinces is essentially dead due to lack of active cotizens participating. Those who are left are getting increasingly tired of how things are.

I'm not saying Talossa is all bad, but if you think of it from an outside perspective, with what I've mentioned, it isn't the most attractive place to join in our current state.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

You don't *really* think that changing the election of Senators from provincial to at-large is burning the house down. I'd prefer you quit it with the overheated (see what I did there?) rhetoric.

It's a metaphor.  Last time I used the metaphor of a crumbling wall in our house, which is probably more commensurate.  I apologize if this example was too inflammatory.

If you guys think that changing to at-large Senators will fix the problem, then do it, even if I object.  Either you'll be right or you'll be wrong.

Ok, so when was the last time the Talossan language was taught?

Are you kidding me?  I just published the fifth lesson in my language series!  For the last couple of months, I've been very publicly posting and discussing them and working with others to improve them.

https://talossan.net/

I'm not saying Talossa is all bad, but if you think of it from an outside perspective, with what I've mentioned, it isn't the most attractive place to join in our current state.

Is it possible that you might just not be aware of some of the things going on right now?

[Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir]

It's a metaphor.  Last time I used the metaphor of a crumbling wall in our house, which is probably more commensurate.  I apologize if this example was too inflammatory.

If you guys think that changing to at-large Senators will fix the problem, then do it, even if I object.  Either you'll be right or you'll be wrong.

Are you kidding me?  I just published the fifth lesson in my language series!  For the last couple of months, I've been very publicly posting and discussing them and working with others to improve them.

https://talossan.net/
Is it possible that you might just not be aware of some of the things going on right now?

Ok so the two parts quoted from me, actually boil down to the same point, so, if there are things going on in Talossa, some things I can see in the chat room, but beyond that, finding information about what is happening for people to get engaged, that has been a problem for years too. That and again, there really isn't much.

I wasn't aware of your language course for example. But I was more referencing it coming from the university of Talossa that I think used to do them.

But it still boils back to the same point, of those things you mentioned not being visible, even to those who have been around for years, so how would a newcomer easily find out? Which comes back to the current appeal. I'm not saying we don't have potential, but we do need to be brutally honest with our selfs, that Talossa has massive issues that would drive people away. And that is something that needs to be addressed.

Optics is important to draw people in. So you may think everything is great, but, if that were true, we wouldn't have an immigration or activity issue to begin with. Which is why I have made the arguments I have today.

[M:sr Pôl dal Nordselvă, D.Div, M.Ed]

As a recent outsider the political infighting is a big turn off. In this day of divided politics, especially in the US, a more united political system would be an enticing draw. Seeing Talossan's working together instead of dividing into petty camps would be a huge draw for those escaping their current environment.

Calling each other names, carefully couched accusations, backhanded compliments, etc. only serve to make Talossa less appealing.

Can somebody please answer this question. Why is immigration the largest concern of some parties? How many actual people immigrate monthly? I see numbers thrown around that in reality mean nothing. How many recent immigrants actually stayed around and got involved? Quite frankly the things mentioned as attractions aren't. All of those things can be done absent of Talossa. There needs to be something beyond special, a master reason to join. I'll state again that addressing the motivation should be more important than nitpicking the numbers.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

But it still boils back to the same point, of those things you mentioned not being visible, even to those who have been around for years, so how would a newcomer easily find out?

Sure, we should probably do a better job of promoting the things that are going on.  I think that would be great!  Please do so!

Clearly, I don't think "everything is great."  I have been loudly agitating to point out that the immigration rate has plummeted by half.  That is not great.  I have made a lot of suggestions about how the Government could do better, but one of the most fundamental things I've been urging is that we should be trying lots of things, loudly and with emphasis, since this is a crisis.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Why is immigration the largest concern of some parties?

It's not the Progressive Alliance's only concern, but it's a pretty big one.  After all, currently some folks are arguing we should be deleting the entire Senats, which has been around for more than three decades, since there's not enough people just to fill the chairs.  We're losing more people each year than immigrate, over this past year.

How many actual people immigrate monthly? I see numbers thrown around that in reality mean nothing.

The government publishes official data on immigration.  They're real numbers.  Are you claiming that actually there's no problem and recent immigrants are much more active and everything is great?

Quote frankly the things mentioned as attractions aren't. All of those things can be done absent of Talossa. There needs to be something beyond special, a master reason to join. I'll state again that addressing the motivation should be more important than nitpicking the numbers.

I'm not "nitpicking."  It's a huge, impossible-to-ignore trend.  It's a 50% drop.

So there's nothing you really like about Talossa right now?  Nothing you enjoy doing?

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I would like to reiterate that I think this debate isn't helpful.  I know that Dama Miestra, Pol, and Antaglha want to circle the wagons and defend the Government, but this is a thread about a bipartisan royal commission.

If you want to have this debate, I'd direct you here: https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=4188.0   Or a new thread somewhere else, if someone wants to challenge the current prevailing narrative.

Otherwise, can we just let this thread alone and agree that we're going to work together to help solve the problem?

[M:sr Pôl dal Nordselvă, D.Div, M.Ed]

I would like to reiterate that I think this debate isn't helpful.  I know that Dama Miestra, Pol, and Antaglha want to circle the wagons and defend the Government, but this is a thread about a bipartisan royal commission.  If you want to have this debate, I'd direct you here: https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=4188.0

Isn't this the purpose of this debate and commission? It seems to me the only person "circling" anything is you as you circle the drain of irrelevance. The point of this commission isnt to point fingers and blame others for perceived error. Rather it is to find a path forward that encourages immigration. I'd suggest the purpose is to encourage longevity. Again I say why have peiple come here to leave or just disappear?

As much as I opposed the AI conversation that would have at least been an attraction for many people. The curiosity factor alone could have been huge. This issue requires stepping outside our tired and overused talking points and thinking outside the box.

Engaging more with other micronations; virtual sporting events; public engagement with world governments; bringing attention to worldwide concerns. Many or all of these could be draws. There are things that can be done differently that don't require political tension.

We can do better. We SHOULD do better. Let's get the message out that we ARE better.

[King Txec]

Well I take a break for a few hours and then see this thread has exploded. Let's keep it on point - as it is about the Royal Commission. Thanks.

-Txec R

[Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir]

I would like to reiterate that I think this debate isn't helpful.  I know that Dama Miestra, Pol, and Antaglha want to circle the wagons and defend the Government, but this is a thread about a bipartisan royal commission.

If you want to have this debate, I'd direct you here: https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=4188.0  Or a new thread somewhere else, if someone wants to challenge the current prevailing narrative.

Otherwise, can we just let this thread alone and agree that we're going to work together to help solve the problem?

AD with all due respect, this IS the place to have this discussion, at least with what myself and Pol have been arguing for, which is that the points we have made, be brought up for serious discussion in the royal commission, Also, I think you'll find that I have not defended the government, and have openly admitted that this is an issue that has been several successive governments, on both sides. But you must have missed those in your haste to respond quickly. As I have not in any way been defending the government, but saying that we need the scope of the commission to talk about our appeal to non talossans who might stumble across us. And how to make this look like a place they might want to join. It's all well and good in reforming the immigration system, if nothing else changes, and the numbers remain low (as to be frank, they have been low for years under our governments of others) then we would be back at square one.

I believe that this being talked about by the commission should be a part of its agenda to look at solution in tandem with other issues the commission might find to rectify.

[Iason Taiwos]

If I'm not allowed to post here, not being a member of this committee, then please delete this. (But give me a break. I work in a miserable factory, it was 107 degrees Fahrenheit in there today, my brains are a little fried.)
Talossa is great. I've been a citizen since 2011. Somehow, you all have put up with me even when I've occasionally been a complete jackass. I am pleased to be a part of Talossa, and am proud if I've managed to make any single, meager contribution to it. (yeah, that Cjovani crap.) Talossa has held my interest since 2011. I haven't even held a job at the same place for that long. I've come to believe that this is a community of decent, creative, and genuinely cool people, and I don't think I'd ever renounce my citizenship. The only way I leave Talossa is in a casket.
That being said, the problem is immigration. I've tried to get my own family members to join, without success. The grandkids walk into my house, see my Talossan flag hanging on the wall, and my Guizua prominently displayed, it's just "That's that fake country Poppy is an Admiral in." Efforts to recruit some of the nerds that frequent Vitx's game store have also met with failure.
Then I get online and see shit like Slowjamistan. Maybe that guy has a lot of money. He bought a parcel of land in the desert. You can go there. He has merch you can buy. You can drive to wherever his land is, he has signs up, maybe you can meet him and other Slowjamistanians. Sealand is harder to actually visit, but you shell out some Louis, you can become royalty. Novelty gift, be a Duke or whatever. Get a fancy certificate.
I'm not suggesting Talossa become like that. "Become a Duke in Talossa for $39.95! Get a certificate signed by the King!" But, maybe that kind of marketing may help. People like to get stuff. Citizenship in Talossa may be free, but why can't we charge money for citizenship certificates and ID cards? And flags? The official Talossan website should have a store. Sure, you'll get a bunch of people who join just for the novelty. "I've lived in Milwaukee my whole life and didn't know I was a in an independent nation! I just joined and ordered an ID card!" Out of all the people who do that as a novelty, maybe we'll get some more people who become intrigued by what Talossa is all about, and who will actively take it seriously. If not, we've still managed to get money from them.
As far as I'm concerned, our language is our greatest asset. We should promote the shit out of that. We need more original Talossan language works, or translations, anything. I'm half tempted to try and contact Iusti Canun in prison, who knows? The dude has nothing but spare time, by now he may have translated the entire Lord of the Rings into Talossan.
I'm done now. Work was pretty bad today. I believe I may have heat exhaustion.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Isn't this the purpose of this debate and commission? It seems to me the only person "circling" anything is you as you circle the drain of irrelevance. The point of this commission isnt to point fingers and blame others for perceived error. Rather it is to find a path forward that encourages immigration. I'd suggest the purpose is to encourage longevity. Again I say why have peiple come here to leave or just disappear?

As much as I opposed the AI conversation that would have at least been an attraction for many people. The curiosity factor alone could have been huge. This issue requires stepping outside our tired and overused talking points and thinking outside the box.

Engaging more with other micronations; virtual sporting events; public engagement with world governments; bringing attention to worldwide concerns. Many or all of these could be draws. There are things that can be done differently that don't require political tension.

We can do better. We SHOULD do better. Let's get the message out that we ARE better.

I am going to decline to respond to any of this, except to say that I think this thread would best be served by keeping it focused on the bipartisan royal commission which was created to recommend specific solutions to the people and the Ziu, not to cast blame.  Please, if you wish to continue debating, please start a new thread or continue at the one I linked.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

If I'm not allowed to post here, not being a member of this committee, then please delete this. (But give me a break. I work in a miserable factory, it was 107 degrees Fahrenheit in there today, my brains are a little fried.)
Talossa is great. I've been a citizen since 2011. Somehow, you all have put up with me even when I've occasionally been a complete jackass. I am pleased to be a part of Talossa, and am proud if I've managed to make any single, meager contribution to it. (yeah, that Cjovani crap.) Talossa has held my interest since 2011. I haven't even held a job at the same place for that long. I've come to believe that this is a community of decent, creative, and genuinely cool people, and I don't think I'd ever renounce my citizenship. The only way I leave Talossa is in a casket.
That being said, the problem is immigration. I've tried to get my own family members to join, without success. The grandkids walk into my house, see my Talossan flag hanging on the wall, and my Guizua prominently displayed, it's just "That's that fake country Poppy is an Admiral in." Efforts to recruit some of the nerds that frequent Vitx's game store have also met with failure.
Then I get online and see shit like Slowjamistan. Maybe that guy has a lot of money. He bought a parcel of land in the desert. You can go there. He has merch you can buy. You can drive to wherever his land is, he has signs up, maybe you can meet him and other Slowjamistanians. Sealand is harder to actually visit, but you shell out some Louis, you can become royalty. Novelty gift, be a Duke or whatever. Get a fancy certificate.
I'm not suggesting Talossa become like that. "Become a Duke in Talossa for $39.95! Get a certificate signed by the King!" But, maybe that kind of marketing may help. People like to get stuff. Citizenship in Talossa may be free, but why can't we charge money for citizenship certificates and ID cards? And flags? The official Talossan website should have a store. Sure, you'll get a bunch of people who join just for the novelty. "I've lived in Milwaukee my whole life and didn't know I was a in an independent nation! I just joined and ordered an ID card!" Out of all the people who do that as a novelty, maybe we'll get some more people who become intrigued by what Talossa is all about, and who will actively take it seriously. If not, we've still managed to get money from them.
As far as I'm concerned, our language is our greatest asset. We should promote the shit out of that. We need more original Talossan language works, or translations, anything. I'm half tempted to try and contact Iusti Canun in prison, who knows? The dude has nothing but spare time, by now he may have translated the entire Lord of the Rings into Talossan.
I'm done now. Work was pretty bad today. I believe I may have heat exhaustion.

These are good ideas!  Thank you.